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Author Topic: Does consciousness exist after death?  (Read 11128 times)

Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #25 on: 22/06/2016 09:42:06 »
If all we have is this tiny infinitesimal moment, this quantum 'speck of time' compared to eternity, then the creator or evolution is a great cheat.
Evolution is just a process. The idea of it being 'cheat' is just a subjective judgement you make.
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Dreams are different from an OBE in that a person very often wakes up after beautiful one struggling to remember it only moments later, dreams can usually only be fully remembered for a matter of minutes.

Unlike dreams a near- death events imprints itself as a vivid often very beautiful consistent memory, as was my case back in the day that never changers over time!
Perhaps you've never had a lucid dream - where you know you are dreaming, and - sometimes - can even control the dream. Lucid dreams can be hyper-vivid, as you say OBEs are. I can still remember a few lucid dreams I had over forty years ago.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #26 on: 22/06/2016 10:46:55 »
After irreversible brain death, there are no NDE.
Exactly; and near-death isn't death. NDEs happen when the brain malfunctions.

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Biolgy and Physics are outside the realm of any experience after death, if there is any. Science did not prove so far that Dualism is wrong neither will prove it.
It's not possible to prove that kind of negative any more than we can prove the absence of Russell's Teapot. The burden of proof lies with those who claim experience after death. However, it's clear that if quantum field theory is a broadly correct model of how the world behaves, the only relevant entities are protons, neutrons, and electrons; and the only relevant forces are gravity and electromagnetism; these entities cannot support complex processes like consciousness outside a complex material substrate such as the brain. Thermodynamics also tells us that without an energy source such processes can't persist, and neuroscience tells us beyond reasonable doubt that consciousness is a process involving interacting brain cells. These are three strong arguments against consciousness independent of a living brain before we get to the absence of any plausible model or evidence in favour.

If you want to hear how quantum field theory rules out such ideas, have a listen to this entertaining explanation by Sean Carroll of the significance of the Higgs boson (the relevant part starts at 33 mins, but the whole thing is worth watching). His main point is that, while we don't know all the details, we now know the basic rules by which human-scale matter and energy behave, and, like the basic rules of a chess game, we don't have to be expert players to know that if someone suggests moves that, for example, require a rook to move diagonally, they can't be right.   

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There are many reports by people who are honest. Many of them report the end of the NDE, like returning to the body or having to decide to come or not before that. This isn't coherent with seizures, drugs, hypoxia, or whatever else.
Nobody doubts that people are honestly reporting their experiences, but it's the interpretation that is doubted. All the features you describe have been reported in induced NDEs and OBEs. Also, apart from some basic features (tunnels, white lights, etc.) that are clearly physiological, the details reported have features specific to the individual's culture and beliefs, which would not be expected if they were experiencing some common objective reality.

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OBE are very significant in that they can be subject to trial. As I told before, Sam Parnia is conducting a multicenter double-blind trial on the subject.
I've followed the AWARE study since its inception, and it hasn't fulfilled the promise originally claimed. Reports were promised, then deferred and delayed, and when they finally released their results, several years late, there was nothing of particular interest (one instance of unexpected consciousness). I'm not holding my breath for anything more.
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If someday some person pronounced dead fulfills the protocol, that will not be explainable by any physical or biological process.
That's a big IF, full of wishful thinking.
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #27 on: 22/06/2016 11:55:54 »
Another way to approach this question, is to make use of some theories in physics, instead of biology. For example, there are theories of alternative and/or parallel universes and extra dimensions. 

Say the brain, via consciousness, was able to generate a bridge to a parallel universe where it adds content. This is sort of what some religions have taught for centuries. The spiritual realms like heaven and hell, are not places one can go with our physical body, any more than an astronaut can beam into another dimension or parallel universe.  One would need to remove the material constraints, that limits one to this dimension; body, before they can D-jump to the new place. There is no proof of this, however, physics does provide theatrical framework from which the possibility might arise.

If you look at the eternal realms of heaven and hell, by tradition, their clocks are moving much slower compared inertial references. One lives for an eternity instead of 90 years. If we assume a physics explanation, the difference in time would be connected to relativity and time dilation.

For that much time dilation, the other realms would need to be in references very close to the speed of light, or even at the speed of light, where matter cannot go, according to special relativity. This is consistent with the traditions that the spiritual realms are not material but energy based. If the brain could generate an interface to a realm near the speed of light, any memory deposited there would be time dilated, and last forever, relative to earth reference.

If physics and engineering could build a device that can interface a parallel universe, where it deposits a self digestion program, which erases itself, and then go there a second time, a week later to retrieve the program, to find it is still undigested, science would be one  step closer.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #28 on: 22/06/2016 13:48:03 »
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?

Alan
 

Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #29 on: 22/06/2016 16:44:54 »
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?

Alan

Can you describe your NDE?
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #30 on: 22/06/2016 16:55:27 »
No, unfortunately no consciousness exists after death at all.  Consciousness is a mechanism of our minds, our brains, our neurons.  After death we no longer have a connection to these things.  The mind is a very powerful thing and is wondrous in its ability to manipulate perception.  That's why some believe so strongly in their near death experiences, because their minds were able to convince them with such fervor that what they were experiencing was real.  But it was really akin to someone taking some really strong acid.  It's just all perception.

Unfortunately when we die we die, and our brains, our minds, our subconscious and conscious all die with us.  If consciousness was its own entity, there would be zero need to see brain activity when we think.  There would be zero reason for a brain scan to pick up activity when we think and perceive.  If consciousness were separate, it would be separate.  But it's not.  In fact it's tied to our bodies in every way imaginable and test after test after test shows this.  If consciousness were separate, why would it turn off when we sleep?  Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of our conscious existence is emotional.  And emotions are directly tied to chemicals flowing through our veins.  If consciousness were separate, how would medications so easily impact it?  How could drugs so easily manipulate it?  How could being ill so easily deaden it?  How could brain injury eradicate it?  Everything about our consciousness is tied to our physical form, to our bodies reactions to different stimuli.  Nothing about our consciousness is independent.  So how when we die could it suddenly be?

No, there is no consciousness when we die.  There is zero evidence such a thing is possible and mountains upon mountains of evidence to show simply why it's not.  With all we know about physics, quantum physics, the nature of the universe and all things, what is there possibly that exists even theoretically that would allow a stream of consciousness to occur without neurons or some neural structure?  What would the mechanism be?  What would hold the information and perceive the information?  Where would this energy be stored?  How would it be accessed?  Are we to suspend all belief in physics, the universe, the nature of it, all that we know about it, and suspend belief in all that is real, to put forward a concept that when we die all that we were as a person is somehow magically transformed into some invisible, not made of particles, completely undetectable, yet sentient force that still remembers who we were, without the need for amino acid structures that hold our memories to begin with?  Nah... such things are fairytales and nice things to think about for sure.  Of course we all would like to believe there's more.  But c'mon now, real is real.  When we die we die.  So live each day with a purpose and the knowledge that you only get whatever days that you get here.  Make the most of them.  Cause ya only live once...
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #31 on: 22/06/2016 17:10:57 »
A monster post by someone who knows nothing about near death experiences, it is just his view not "a statement of fact like he suggests"
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #32 on: 22/06/2016 17:20:48 »
A monster post by someone who knows nothing about near death experiences, it is just his view not "a statement of fact like he suggests"

On what basis can you make the statement that I know nothing about near death experiences, when you have no idea who I am?  If you have zero knowledge about me, then saying such things can only be from a standpoint of ignorance (i.e. ignorance = not having the information necessary to form an accurate opinion).

As far as my view goes, like I said; mountains upon mountains upon mountains of evidence towards my side of the argument, and in fact everything we know, everything we've learned about the universe, about physics, about all of it, gives zero credibility whatsoever to the concept that our consciousness somehow lives on.  Literally everything we know tells us otherwise.  Mountains and mountains of evidence on my side of the argument, and literally zero... zero... big fat zero amount of evidence lending credibility towards the other side.  So yeah, I'm pretty comfortable where my opinion lies.
 

Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #33 on: 22/06/2016 17:23:45 »
A monster post by someone who knows nothing about near death experiences, it is just his view not "a statement of fact like he suggests"

Forget about other opinions as there will always be people thinking in different ways.

Can you describe your NDE?
 

Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #34 on: 22/06/2016 17:35:08 »
This world is a physical one and thus you'll find there nothing more than physical things.

That proves nothing beyond physical reality.

After dying, people disappear from this world and this is widely known, even before scientific foundation, perhaps even by some animals at least.

Using the Teapot by Russell, claiming there's nothing more than physical things need evidence, otherwise it's a teapot orbiting somewhere.

Antonio Damasio, who I praise so much and hope will write some more books, claims consciousness is fully explainable by firing neurons by studying emotions and neurological patients, but I disagree.

I'm constructing a mental experiment, something like the Chinese room by Searle, that shows that by demonstrating that the loss of brain tissue implies loss of mental functions proves as much against Dualism as demonstrating that by cutting a nerve implies loss of muscular contraction.



 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #35 on: 22/06/2016 17:50:45 »
I'm constructing a mental experiment, something like the Chinese room by Searle, that shows that by demonstrating that the loss of brain tissue implies loss of mental functions proves as much against Dualism as demonstrating that by cutting a nerve implies loss of muscular contraction.
Good luck with that. I hope you can do a better job than Searle.

Post it up when it's ready.
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #36 on: 22/06/2016 17:58:28 »
This world is a physical one and thus you'll find there nothing more than physical things.

That proves nothing beyond physical reality.

After dying, people disappear from this world and this is widely known, even before scientific foundation, perhaps even by some animals at least.

Using the Teapot by Russell, claiming there's nothing more than physical things need evidence, otherwise it's a teapot orbiting somewhere.

Antonio Damasio, who I praise so much and hope will write some more books, claims consciousness is fully explainable by firing neurons by studying emotions and neurological patients, but I disagree.

I'm constructing a mental experiment, something like the Chinese room by Searle, that shows that by demonstrating that the loss of brain tissue implies loss of mental functions proves as much against Dualism as demonstrating that by cutting a nerve implies loss of muscular contraction.

Everything we know... Every single thing that we know, every experiment that's been done, every bit of evidence that we have, lends zero credibility to the concept of life after death.  Nothing points to it. Nothing infers it. Nothing explains a mechanism for it.  Nothing lends credence to it.  Of all we have and all we've done there's still zero logical reason to believe in its possibility other than merely 'wanting to'. 

Let me ask you.. If you had the capability to take emotions out of the equation and look at it with complete objectivity.  If you could take the component of "liking it to be true" out of it... Then I'd like to ask what is it scientifically or logically that you've ever learned, ever seen, ever come across, ever been made aware of, that would lead you to towards believing in its existence?  If it was just a raw logical concept where your emotions or desires didn't come into play, what would be your reasons for choosing that side of the argument? 
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #37 on: 22/06/2016 18:00:50 »
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?
The topic is about consciousness after death. No matter how profound, your experience - like all known experiences - was an experience of life.
« Last Edit: 22/06/2016 18:03:44 by dlorde »
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #38 on: 22/06/2016 18:09:31 »
Most of you in this thread take the position of being some sort of authority on the subject, which you are all  decidedly not.

I am as close to an expert or a person who is knowledgeable on the subject!

Because unlike you all, I have actually have had a profound near death experience and know the reality of it ?
The topic is about consciousness after death. No matter how profound, your experience - like all known experiences - was an experience of life.

Very very good point!
 

Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #39 on: 22/06/2016 18:20:42 »
there's still zero logical reason to believe

Well, the logical reason dates back to Plato and Aristotle and is unsettled to this day. The substrata to that logic lye in front of your eyes.

As I told you before, until the day you can build a consciousness in a lab, however simple it is, you cannot prove that it depends only on atoms.

My epistemological discussion finishes here as this topic is about consciousness after death.
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #40 on: 22/06/2016 18:27:53 »
there's still zero logical reason to believe

Well, the logical reason dates back to Plato and Aristotle and is unsettled to this day. The substrata to that logic lye in front of your eyes.

As I told you before, until the day you can build a consciousness in a lab, however simple it is, you cannot prove that it depends only on atoms.

My epistemological discussion finishes here as this topic is about consciousness after death.

I assure you, that day will come.  You make it sound like it should be easy.. Seemingly ignoring the fact that literally billions of components are at play.  Not such an easy machine to build.  But that's only right now to say that consciousness has yet to be replicated. It lends zero to the other side of the argument that there is life after death.  It's not like right now all evidence ponts to there being one, and scientists are in a lab trying to prove it wrong. No, instead it's like I said, there is zero anything that lends credibility towards that ideal, other than merely because someone "wants it" to be true.  So I'd rather you answer the direct question I posed to you in my earlier reply, if you can. 
 

Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #41 on: 22/06/2016 18:45:08 »
Seemingly ignoring the fact that literally billions of components are at play

Just need the algorithm and for that a sheet of paper and a pencil is enough.

A sheet of paper and a pencil would be a luxury for Leonardo Davinci, who could devise a flying machine well before anyone could build one or for Democritus, who postulated the existence of the atom more than 2,000 years before anyone could prove how right he was.
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #42 on: 22/06/2016 18:58:01 »
Seemingly ignoring the fact that literally billions of components are at play

Just need the algorithm and for that a sheet of paper and a pencil is enough.

A sheet of paper and a pencil would be a luxury for Leonardo Davinci, who could devise a flying machine well before anyone could build one or for Democritus, who postulated the existence of the atom more than 2,000 years before anyone could prove how right he was.
DaVinci's machine didn't require billions of components. And you're talking about an algorithm that would need to mimic billions of components and mechanisms, including ones that are not yet even fully understood.  So you are wayyyyy over simplifying the task at hand. 

But again, I ask that you please answer my direct question posed to you in an earlier reply, if you can...  Thanks. 
 

Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #43 on: 22/06/2016 23:43:36 »
IAMREALITY, you don't need billions of components for an algorithm of muscle action or vision.

Computers can even see better than humans or play chess better than Karpov.

If you need billions of components for the simplest form of consciousness, then maybe something is missing there.

You have such powerful computers today and still find my algorithm an oversimplification?

All you need is add a few bits and make the computer know it exists, as Descartes, the most attacked philosopher ad hominem of all times, would put it almost 400 years ago.

But an algorithm on a sheet of paper or a notepad or whatever will do for now.

I'm sorry that a few ideas are messed up above, but I'm sure you can dissect all at once.

Note that I have no idea if the consciousness survives death. But there are philosophical theories based in logic that admit it.

Can you please repeat your question? I must have missed it.

« Last Edit: 22/06/2016 23:57:26 by kasparovitch »
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #44 on: 23/06/2016 00:00:39 »
IAMREALITY, you don't need billions of components for an algorithm of muscle action or vision.

Computers can even see better than humans or play chess better than Karpov.

If you need billions of components for the simplest form of consciousness, then maybe something is missing there.

You have such powerful computers today and still find my algorithm an oversimplification?

All you need is add a few bits and make the computer know it exists, as Descartes, the most attacked philosopher ad hominem of all times, would put it almost 400 years ago.

But an algorithm on a sheet of paper or a notepad or whatever will do for now.

I'm sorry that a few ideas are messed up above, but I'm sure you can dissect all at once.

Note that I have no idea if the consciousness survives death. But there are philosophical theories based in logic that admit it.

Can you please repeat your question? I must have missed it.

Yes,  you are beyond oversimplifying it.  No, it would not be that easy.  This isn't chess we're talking about here.

I also really shouldn't have to spoonfeed you.  Scroll up and read my question about why you'd be on that side of the equation if emotions were taken out of it.  Scroll up for the specifics.  It's one page to scroll through. It shouldn't take you all that long...
 

Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #45 on: 23/06/2016 00:18:25 »
If I asked you for a machine that could play chess better than any human 100 years ago you'd tell me it's oversimplication.

Now in the XXI century you say that creating an algorithm for the simplest form of consciousness is oversimplification.

Maybe we're missing something.

I'll scroll through tomorrow, as it's too late here by now. I promise.
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #46 on: 23/06/2016 06:05:38 »
NDE is not a question of honesty. It a question of people fooling themselves. I believe they had experiences, but not ones that actually happened in reality.

Also, testimony is not evidence.

You can believe what you like , but the experiences are real glimpses into what come after death. What you are saying is like as a hypothetical answering a person or doubting him/her when he informs you he has just come back from the city of Timbucktoo, with you replying 'come of there is no such place" when in fact it is a real city in a small  African country by the name of Mali?

What you believe or what I believe is redundant to the actual truth, simply because Truth is Truth regardless of what our tiny finite minds think about

Alani
On what basis can you make such a statement that it's a real glimpse into what comes after death? How the heck do you know that's what after death would be? Based on what exactly?  Because you feel like that's what it would be like? Because you think that's what you were experiencing?

There's zero reason to believe in something that there's zero evidence in reality to support, merely because you feel like it. Fact is, I had the same experience.  I know the exact vividness you speak of, that same ethereal feeling. That same overpowering sense of beauty and wonder and peace and comfort. This sort of sensation and higher level thinking that I could never get under normal circumstances.  But I still let science rule my logic, I still didn't jump to such a wild conclusion, and that's cause reality matters. Cause facts matter.  They always will. And no matter how magical the experience was, I still knew that there is zero evidence in reality for life after death and absolutely no mechanism within anything we know about reality, within anything ever learned in physics or the sciences, literally zero mechanism within our entire body of knowledge, that would even begin to give credibility to how it possibly could be so.  And furthermore, there's mountains upon mountains of evidence supporting it not being possible supporting the fact that consciousness is completely tied to our physical form.  Every single possible point within which side would be right, literally every bit of fact and evidence, points to there being no life after death, period. So I care about facts.  Cause facts matter. And when there's that much evidence in front of me and literally no evidence, none at all, towards the other side, then yeah, there was no way that was a conclusion I was gonna jump to.  Cause it didn't matter how vivid an experience it was.  I learned a long time ago how to be objective, how to take my emotions out of the equation, and how to let my critical thinking skills arrive at conclusions instead.

And years later I found it was the right thing to have in fact done. Cause at first, it was this overwhelming and vivid experience that absolutely was on a higher level and that at first gave me struggle to not accept as some life after death experience.  Because I had thought just like you, this wow, that was surreal, so much more vivid and aware and just, well, peaceful and powerful and pleasant and just on a higher level.  Nothing in reality had ever felt like that, so how could reality explain it? But my critical thinking skills, rationality and logic helped guide me as always, and I arrived at the correct conclusion that it is merely how powerful the mind is, its hold on perception, and just how powerfully it can trick you. . And how did I know years later that I was right? Cause years later I did peyote and acid and tripped my damn face off, and at my peak of my trip,  I was right back in that realm. The exact same realm. Just as vivid, just as powerful, just as ethereal, no death necessary.  Just chemicals causing my brain to short circuit and bring me there.  I call it trip world.  That's what you experienced. Trip world, nothing more.  I know this cause I've experienced both.  I know the level was identical. I have that knowledge and experience.  Yes, the mind is that powerful all on its own. No new dimensions or wild concepts rooted in zero evidence that break all the knowledge of physics we know are necessary.  No death is necessary.  Just smoke some peyote eat some shrooms, while swallowing a bunch of tabs of acid and maybe smoking some hash. Trust me, you'll be back in that exact realm. I'll never forget the day I did all that, how high a level I was on that day tripping.. We to this day call that day "Utopia", because of how high a level of wisdom we were on.  It was the same realm. It was the day I learned with absolute certainty that what I had experienced years early was nothing more than a product of my own mind.  I knew it with certainty.  Cause it was the same level.  The same one.  Trip world.  No death necessary. 
« Last Edit: 23/06/2016 06:09:37 by IAMREALITY »
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #47 on: 23/06/2016 06:44:37 »


By your own admittance you took acid and by that you are somehow, illogically an expert on the near death experiencing, however, "you are lying" there is absolutely no similarity between a near death experience and an acid trip. An acid trip is a form of self induced insanity.


It was the exact same realm. No death necessary. I know you don't wanna accept that, and maybe you've never tripped before, or like that anyway, but I assure you, it's the exact same realm. Sorry dude. They're identical. (I know, cause I've experienced both). 
« Last Edit: 23/06/2016 16:32:07 by IAMREALITY »
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #48 on: 23/06/2016 06:50:28 »
I would also ask you to please refrain from personal attacks such as calling me a liar, when I've done nothing but tell the truth with as much blunt honesty as I can muster. Thanks.
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #49 on: 23/06/2016 07:05:39 »

Just by your repeating that statement you are reinforcing the fact that you are lying.  An acid trip is nothing like a near death experience, it is a form of self induced insanity "Dude" And I don't "wanna" accept  that because I do not believe what liars say . 

Below is an excerpt of someone who actually used LSD

Quote
I felt this 10 foot big man carrying me up some stairs. I felt as light as a feather. I thought I was going to heaven but when I finally opened my eyes I was back in the room, alive, with my friend sitting beside me. But then I thought I was dead. I didn't know I was alive. I got a glimpse of hell which you cannot imagine. It's nothing like what people say it is. It's all about repetition of your fears. I was on acid, so what I saw was strange. In reality of my sight, I saw my friend kill me again and again and again and again, forever. But the truth was that I was afraid that the only people I trusted would go against me and try and harm me. That was my greatest fear I guess, and death of course. So that's what happened. That's what hell's about.

No, I'm not lying whatsoever.  I'm relaying the facts.  You apparently know nothing about tripping so you really can't credibly give an opinion on it whatsoever.  But I can.  Cause I've experienced both.  Same realm.  No death necessary.  And anyone who has tripped knows that no two trips are the same. Posting someone else's trip to try and have knowledge on the subject is a failed exercise. And trust me, I'm the king of trip world.  That was my world.  Hell, I miss it sometimes.  But alas, adulthood. Yet still, anyone who's done it knows the different forms of trip can take and sometimes having the right guide can make all the difference. I brought so many people to that level. Because I knew how. Yes it was the same Realm. No death necessary. You obviously don't have any experience with it, so you really have no ability to dispute it. But please, spare me the calling me a liar garbage. If it's one thing I don't do it's lie.  I feel no need. Being the voice of blunt reality suits me far better.
« Last Edit: 23/06/2016 16:31:24 by IAMREALITY »
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #49 on: 23/06/2016 07:05:39 »

 

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