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Author Topic: An analysis of the de Broglie equation  (Read 23608 times)

Offline jeffreyH

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Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #151 on: 04/06/2016 22:02:52 »
This web page just about sums up my viewpoint. Read in particular the part about primordial black holes. Note that this refers to observational data, the analysis of which produced the indicated conclusions.This is where folks like us are at a disadvantage. Not enough funds to develop or deploy measuring devices of the type required.

https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/the-smallest-black-hole-in-the-universe-e75c4b56e538
I've read all this before.  It leaves open ended questions that my logic answers.

On the premiss that a clock runs faster in the higher gravity potential, (which it does), this 'can' lead to the line of logic that...  A black holes clock will run at a ridiculously faster rate than a clock on earth will, because a black holes gravity potential is that much greater.

Simply state the observation of differing rates of time as time frame dependent and proportional to the difference in rate of time.  This then explains why the observation of a black holes temperature decreases with an increase in mass, (inversely proportional) and the mass of the black hole is now as hot as 'usual' physic's would expect of that mass being compressed to that extent. Very hot indeed, Big Bang plasma hot where light cannot shine.  The conservation of energy law is upheld.  All we can observe are thermal readings.

This explains why a smaller black hole is hotter than a bigger black hole and negates an upper mass limit on black holes.

The implications of time running faster in a greater gravity field result in time running slower out in space, leading me to looking at the observation, (in that we 'can' look at light as having 'no' mass), of light's wavelength being inversely proportional to frequency and the changes in wavelength due to gravitational shift then being due to a longer duration of time, and the length of the wavelength remains constant.

This then challenges Hubble's law, the measure of distance, and the premiss of an expanding universe...  If the universe isn't expanding is 'has' to be contracting and it must be doing so relatively slowly.  This leading to the notion of a cyclic universe that finds its beginnings and ends of cycle in the black hole phenomenon.

In my model virtual particles that form during scattering, (when black holes eject particles via their accretion disks), due to the vastly slower rate of time in open space these virtual particles have 'the time' in which to become real particles.  The second law is upheld in that the universe is constantly increasing in size.

Take this notion of virtual particles in a slower rate of time and relate it to the uncertainty principle, and perturbation theory is unnecessary because the uncertainty of what position something is occupying when travelling at a certain velocity will be solved by calculating this 'distance' 'velocity' 'time' relationship when applying the 'appropriate' rate of time to the equation.

This is a basic synopsis of my take on an alternative...  and so perhaps you can see why I found your potential 1 hertz wave relationship interesting?

Edit: I'll read the other one...
« Last Edit: 04/06/2016 22:13:11 by timey »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #152 on: 04/06/2016 23:13:38 »
On the premiss that a clock runs faster in the higher gravity potential, (which it does), this 'can' lead to the line of logic that...  A black holes clock will run at a ridiculously faster rate than a clock on earth will, because a black holes gravity potential is that much greater.
No. The gravity potential of a black hole is very low, not very high! Remember the term "potential well" - the very opposite to far space!
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #153 on: 04/06/2016 23:15:15 »
There are always unknowns in physics. Nothing special there. What makes your time dilate in inter-galactic voids? There has to be a cause. The function would start at a dense mass and have a positive gradient but at some unspecified point the gradient is zero and then becomes negative. Minima and maxima can indicate a connection to symmetries and conservation laws. So you have my attention...
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #154 on: 04/06/2016 23:32:20 »
A theory of the workings of the universe that does not fully describe the universe is incomplete, and possibly faulty...
Incomplete is not necessarily wrong.

Very few caterpillars ever get to be butterflies, and they tend to hide when they pupate, so an incomplete observation could fully and correctly describe the behavior of both without finding the connection. Gravity poses interesting problems as we don't have a quantum model for unipolar action at a distance.
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #155 on: 05/06/2016 00:24:38 »
On the premiss that a clock runs faster in the higher gravity potential, (which it does), this 'can' lead to the line of logic that...  A black holes clock will run at a ridiculously faster rate than a clock on earth will, because a black holes gravity potential is that much greater.
No. The gravity potential of a black hole is very low, not very high! Remember the term "potential well" - the very opposite to far space!

I understand Alan that what you say is the current theory... and re-iterate that I am making an alteration to GR in this proposition...

In defence of my proposition...  If you think of a clock running faster in elevation to earth at a certain distance, and then (hypothetically) transpose this scenario to the black hole, it becomes a logical conclusion that the gravity potential that the clock experiences at elevation to the black hole is greater than the gravity potential that the clock elevated from the earth is.  Thus suggesting that the possibility that a black holes rate of time time 'can' be greater than that of the rate of time on earth...
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #156 on: 05/06/2016 00:27:59 »
There are always unknowns in physics. Nothing special there. What makes your time dilate in inter-galactic voids? There has to be a cause. The function would start at a dense mass and have a positive gradient but at some unspecified point the gradient is zero and then becomes negative. Minima and maxima can indicate a connection to symmetries and conservation laws. So you have my attention...

This logic requires you to view the phenomenon of time as energy related. (I can say a lot more on this but don't wish to cloud the issue).

It also requires you to look at light as having no mass.

The function of change in frequency for light is the gravitational shift for light, whereby the velocity related aspect of Doppler shift for light 'can' be transposed into time, instead of distance.

Because light travels through space emitted at a whole spectrum of different frequencies that suffer Doppler shift, calculating the inverted time dilation exactly via light would not give us the exact measure, but as Hubble's candle is used for redshift...?

If the hypothetical graviton exists, then it can be attributed energy and frequency that would suffer changes according to its distance from mass.

The frequency in relation to a time related wave'length' would be inverted time dilation.

The reason anything possessing mass increasing in time at elevation being due to adding gravity potential.
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #157 on: 05/06/2016 01:07:26 »
There are always unknowns in physics. Nothing special there. What makes your time dilate in inter-galactic voids? There has to be a cause. The function would start at a dense mass and have a positive gradient but at some unspecified point the gradient is zero and then becomes negative. Minima and maxima can indicate a connection to symmetries and conservation laws. So you have my attention...

This logic requires you to view the phenomenon of time as energy related. (I can say a lot more on this but don't wish to cloud the issue).

I am unsure of what 'time as energy related' means.

Quote
It also requires you to look at light as having no mass.

Well it doesn't have rest mass.

Quote
The function of change in frequency for light is the gravitational shift for light, whereby the velocity related aspect of Doppler shift for light 'can' be transposed into time, instead of distance.

Because light travels through space emitted at a whole spectrum of different frequencies that suffer Doppler shift, calculating the inverted time dilation exactly via light would not give us the exact measure, but as Hubble's candle is used for redshift...?

If the hypothetical graviton exists, then it can be attributed energy and frequency that would suffer changes according to its distance from mass.

The frequency in relation to a time related wave'length' would be inverted time dilation.

The reason anything possessing mass increasing in time at elevation being due to adding gravity potential.

The rest is difficult to interpret.
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #158 on: 05/06/2016 14:04:10 »
What makes your time dilate in inter-galactic voids? There has to be a cause.

Trying desperately to keep it simple - in answer to your question:

It is the gravitational shift itself that is the function that is inverted time dilation, and it is the changes in energy in the gravity field causing the change in the dilation/contraction of inverted time.  The rate of this inverted time is linear to the gravitational gradient.

Light, when looked at as having no mass, is then not affected by gravitation, and gravity potential energy is not applicable.  Lights wavelength decreases as it moves towards earth, indicative of travelling through reference frames that are linearly increased in the rate of their local time.

A clock (which has mass) elevated above Earth is located in the weaker gravity field and 'is' affected by gravity potential.  Therefore gravity potential energy must be added and this 'increases' the frequency and rate of time of the clock (not the location of elevation it is elevated at), and that of the atomic structures of the physical make up of an observer and his belongings in the reference frame with the clock.  If we place clocks at further elevated positions in the higher gravity potential, but weaker gravity field, more gravity potential energy is added and the frequency further increases.

(This logic requires another method of dealing with KE for a velocity related dilation of time and a reduced energy and frequency.  But...this only applies to structures of mass)

When considering that an atom (such as the caesium atom of the atomic clock) must be cooled to negate any thermal shift in its frequency, and that Planck's h constant has a direct relationship with thermal shifts in energy and an indirect relationship with gravitational shifts in frequency, then the possibility exists, (remembering that physic's does not have a comprehensive theory of time), that the phenomenon of time is related to energy.  A 'byproduct' of energy if you like... placing the concept of time as a mechanical phenomenon that has cause as part of the universe, and is calculable via the energy of a system.

Planck's h constant then becomes indicative of an energy time relationship...

What you say here is really relevant...

Consider a sine wave. Nothing to do with light or gravity. Forget those. If the wave length is constant we can move along the wave marking it off at regular intervals. Everything will be constant and cyclic. Now if we start again but this time continuously vary the intervals at which we mark off the wave using a function to determine the increase or decrease in the steps we can see how this can make it appear that something has changed. If we were blissfully unaware that our function existed then we may come to the conclusion that it was the wave that was changing.
« Last Edit: 05/06/2016 14:20:24 by timey »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #159 on: 05/06/2016 15:41:05 »
Quote from: timey
Light, when looked at as having no mass, is then not affected by gravitation, and gravity potential energy is not applicable.
But light does have mass via its momentum. What it doesn't have is rest mass, aka proper mass. Since light has momentum and anything that has momentum has, by definition, relativistic mass. It's the relativistic mass that makes it respond to gravity. This is all explained by Feynman in his "Lectures."
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #160 on: 05/06/2016 22:39:50 »
Happy to pass the baton, Pete, but beware - this is a muddy marathon, not a sprint on a marked track!
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #161 on: 06/06/2016 02:01:38 »
Quote from: timey
Light, when looked at as having no mass, is then not affected by gravitation, and gravity potential energy is not applicable.
But light does have mass via its momentum. What it doesn't have is rest mass, aka proper mass. Since light has momentum and anything that has momentum has, by definition, relativistic mass. It's the relativistic mass that makes it respond to gravity. This is all explained by Feynman in his "Lectures."

Pete - quite clearly this would of course be the case IF I was talking about the theory of relativity.  But I am not, I am talking about my inverted time theory, whereby the logic of this theory results in the mechanics of a cyclic universe that describes an alternative Big Bang, inflation period, and method of contraction as a fully working system.

As inverted time theory fully describes the mechanics of the universe without relying on any unobserved phenomenon at-all, this physic's 'theory of everything' is indeed entirely unique.

P.S.   I do like Feynman and his lectures, that dude is a pleasure to watch.  Great sense of humour and incredibly impressive intellectual acrobatics... I might have to watch again in fact... thanks for reminding me!
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #162 on: 06/06/2016 15:48:48 »
Happy to pass the baton, Pete, but beware - this is a muddy marathon, not a sprint on a marked track!

Don't pass on the baton Alan, I stocked up... we can all have one each...

So... with regards to this:

In defence of my proposition...  If you think of a clock running faster in elevation to earth at a certain distance, and then (hypothetically) transpose this scenario to the black hole, it becomes a logical conclusion that the gravity potential that the clock experiences at elevation to the black hole is greater than the gravity potential that the clock elevated from the earth is experiencing. Thus suggesting that the possibility exists that a black holes rate of time 'can' be greater than that of the rate of time on earth...

The logic holds true, doesn't it?
« Last Edit: 06/06/2016 15:59:33 by timey »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #163 on: 07/06/2016 00:22:10 »
The clock rate difference between any two points in the universe depends on the gravitational potential difference between those points.  The gravitational potential at the centre of a black hole is a long way below any point in its vicinity, so clocks run slower in and around black holes than they do elsewhere.
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #164 on: 07/06/2016 14:47:15 »
Yes, that is 'relativity' correct...

But... is relativity saying that the gravity potential at the centre of a black hole is lesser than that of the gravity potential at the centre of earth?

The gravity potential at the centre of the earth and at the centre of a black hole should both be equal and set at 0, shouldn't they?  It is only the mass between the object affected and the centre of the sphere that exerts force...

Therefore, logically speaking, the gravity potential escalating from the centre of a black hole from 0 is going to be greater than the gravity potential escalating from the centre of the earth from 0.

... As we can see from observation of our earth clock's rate of time being escalated in the higher gravity potential at elevation, we can now relate this back to the black holes greater escalation of gravity potential and see that the black holes clock is running at an escalated rate in accordance with that greater gravity potential... and that logically, the black holes clock must indeed be running at a faster rate than the clock on earth...
« Last Edit: 07/06/2016 14:50:24 by timey »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #165 on: 07/06/2016 17:03:11 »
The gravity potential at the centre of the earth and at the centre of a black hole should both be equal and set at 0, shouldn't they?  It is only the mass between the object affected and the centre of the sphere that exerts force...

No. It's more logical to set the gravitational potential of "distant space" at zero, so that the potential  V at distance x from a point mass M is increasingly negative. Vx= -GM/x

In the case of a small black hole, the central density is so large that the GP tends towards -∞ as you approach it. Inside a uniform sphere, however,  there is no net gravitational force, so what goes on in the centre of a large black hole is anyone's guess.

But the important thing about gravitational blue shift and time dilatation is that they don't depend on the mass of the clock or light source, only the local gravitational field.
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #166 on: 07/06/2016 22:18:37 »
Well Alan - again you are 'relativity' correct... However, the logic involved in setting zero at some unknown point in distant space is only found in remaining within the remit of the theory, and nowhere else...

And... isn't this exactly the point that introduces infinities to the mathematics?

Because if you introduce an infinity as a 'working' component of a calculation, then further down the road as you progress the results of this calculation as a component for other related calculations, it should be of no surprise what-so-ever that some of these 'other' calculations will result in infinities.

And isn't it the fact of relativity resulting in infinities that renders the theory, despite its successes, unable to fully describe the universe that we observe?

But the important thing about gravitational blue shift and time dilatation is that they don't depend on the mass of the clock or light source, only the local gravitational field.

My logic of inverted time dilation begs to differ.  In the case of mass, all mass is subject to gravity potential, and all atoms that are elevated experience an increase in their frequency, and rate of time, via the gravitational shift. (equivalence principle).  And all spectra of emitted light will experience frequency shift in the gravitational field, and this phenomenon of the shift of frequency in light has got nothing to do with the circumstance of the lights source...
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #167 on: 08/06/2016 06:51:45 »


And... isn't this exactly the point that introduces infinities to the mathematics?

We know that V = -GM/x by experiment. So how can you approach a point where V = 0, and what happens to V when x → 0? Don't be scared of infinities - they are very useful if handled with care.

Quote
And isn't it the fact of relativity resulting in infinities that renders the theory, despite its successes, unable to fully describe the universe that we observe?
no. The answer is in the question. Quantum mechanics describes what the local observer sees - crudely, "what happens".  Relativity describes what the distant observer sees - "what appears to happen, due to the distortions introduced by speed and gravitation in a universe with a speed limit".

Quote
In the case of mass, all mass is subject to gravity potential,
but there is no m in the definition of potential, which is why photons are subject to blue shift.
Quote
and all atoms that are elevated experience an increase in their frequency,
I've warned you before about "experience". The clock has no idea of its gravitational potential and all clocks tell their local observers the same thing. 

Quote
And all spectra of emitted light will experience frequency shift in the gravitational field, and this phenomenon of the shift of frequency in light has got nothing to do with the circumstance of the lights source...
The perceived frequency of a clock or a photon depends only on the gravitational potential difference and relative speed between the source and the observer. That has everything to do with the circumstance of the source. 
« Last Edit: 08/06/2016 06:58:32 by alancalverd »
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #168 on: 08/06/2016 14:35:13 »
Alan, again, just a gentle reminder that when making deviations from 'relativity' I do so purposefully, and you are giving the impression of stating 'relativity' as being the 'absolute' theory in response to my questioning of it...

I'm sorry, but those maths are not obvious to me.   I don't understand where in space you are saying that zero gravity potential exists, and therefore cannot 'get with' the concept and merit of this 'far away' clock.

To try another way to explain...

You said:
""But the important thing about gravitational blue shift and time dilatation is that they don't depend on the mass of the clock or the source just the gravitational field""

Ok - concentrating on the mass of the clock and time dilation.  It is my understanding, (subject to being wrong, in which case I apologise in advance), that you are saying that the mass of the working mechanism of the clock, (this being the caesium  atom), has no bearing on the time dilation effects the clock experiences due to the gravity field.  You are saying:""The click has no idea of its gravitational potential and all clocks tell their local observers the same thing.""

I am saying that the caesium atom has mass and therefore it 'knows' nothing at-all, and 'is' simply affected by the gravitational field and its own mass in relation to gravity potential. (...and also that it's frequency will be affected negatively by velocity related KE)

I am suggesting that in accordance with the equivalence principle, when the caesium atoms frequency increases placed at elevation to earth, that all atoms will experience increase in their frequency at elevation to earth.  And if you take the view that an increase in frequency increases the rate of time for the atomic clock, the increase in frequency that all other types of atomic structures experience at elevation can be viewed as their rate of time increasing.  But...when you measure these increase in frequencies for these 'other' atoms, they will be increasing in frequency in direct proportion to their own mass and the gravity potential of their location, and 'not' directly proportionally to the increase in frequency that the caesium atom experiences.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshift
Quote:
"At the bottom of a gravity well, all matter waves have higher frequencies than control matter waves outside the gravity well. When such a blueshifted matter wave climbs out of the gravity well, its frequency decreases to a "normal" level, so that comparing its frequency with the frequency of a control matter wave will not show any reddening."

In direct opposition to the quote above:  A caesium atom (and presumably all of it's particle constituents) frequency appears to increase in a higher gravity potential.  An observer and his belongings with the clock will experience the same time dilation effects that the clock experiences.  Therefore it is logical that the atomic structures (and all of their particle constituents) of the observer and his belongings frequency is also increased via the higher gravity potential, this being 'why' they actually 'do' experience time differences in keeping with the caesium atom mechanism of the clock.

If, as the wiki page suggests, a matter waves frequency decreases in the higher gravity potential, how can the frequency of the ground state transition of the caesium atom be observed to increase in the higher gravity potential?
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #169 on: 08/06/2016 16:53:37 »
The frequency of a cesium clock has nothing to do with "matter waves", as we explained several pages ago.
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #170 on: 08/06/2016 18:40:25 »
Yes it is true that this was explained several pages ago, whereby the change in the frequency of the clock is not attributed to the matter wave of the atom itself, but is related to the electron cloud that is inherent to the structure of the caesium atom. (again...I apologise if I have misrepresented here)

I suggested that the change in the frequency of the caesium atoms electrons is a change in the matter wave of the electrons... And that the frequency of these electrons that are in a relationship with the other particle constituents that are the structure of the caesium atom, is directly proportional to the matter wave frequency of the other particle constituents.  And that this relationship of frequency within the atom is 'energy' related.   Or more precisely, potential energy related.

I saw an interesting picture on the forum last week concerning the spectrum bandwidth differences between molecular and atomic.  Lightarrow had said the atomic bandwidth had more and Humandi Yusof posted that it was the other way round.  I'll try and find the pic and repost it here...

Meantime... we observe, of an atomic clock, a change in frequency in a higher gravity potential.  Just to double check, are you in agreement that the electrons of the electron cloud of the atom suffer a change in frequency?  Or is the terminology of a change in frequency with regards to the atomic clock referring to a change in frequency that is not energy and therefore not wavelength associated?
« Last Edit: 08/06/2016 18:45:23 by timey »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #171 on: 08/06/2016 19:00:13 »
Meantime... we observe, of an atomic clock, a change in frequency in a higher gravity potential.  Just to double check, are you in agreement that the electrons of the electron cloud of the atom suffer a change in frequency?
No. It is nothing to do with matter waves of any sort. As explained previously, the frequency of an atomic clock is fixed by the energy difference between parallel and antiparallel spin vectors of the outermost electron and the nucleus.
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #172 on: 08/06/2016 19:34:37 »
...and according to 'theory of relativity' the energy difference between parallel and antiparallel spin vectors of the outermost electron and the nucleus do not experience a (observed from a higher or lower gravity potential) shift in energy and therefore frequency in the gravitational field?

The NIST ground level clock experiments state that the clock elevated 1 meter above sea level has a higher frequency than the clock placed at sea level.

Surely this description of a change in frequency is related to the energy difference between the electrons and the nucleus?
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #173 on: 08/06/2016 20:01:32 »
No. It is a consequence of the distortion of spacetime by a gravitational field.

The energy gap E is fixed by the spin-spin interaction and is the same everywhere in the universe.

The frequency of the emitted photon is determined by the relationship fe= E/h.

The frequency shift between source and receiver is given by the relativistic gravitational shift equation 

fr= fe√{(1-2GM/(R+h)c2)/(1 - 2GM/Rc2)}

which you already knew.
« Last Edit: 08/06/2016 20:05:01 by alancalverd »
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #174 on: 08/06/2016 21:53:32 »
Yes - and I am suggesting that the cause for this distortion of space time is time dilation related, and that the phenomenon of time is energy related.  If there is more energy then time will run faster.  And that if you view space time from the basis of this remit, you end up with a fully described working system that answers previously unanswered considerations, and results in a cyclic universe.

But you knew this already, didn't you?

If I could manipulate those maths in that way Alan, I would be seeking evaluation via the peer-review system of archival research journals for my 'already' calculated and properly presented theory, and I wouldn't be here on this internet forum saying:

"Hey, if you consider this proposed additional phenomenon of an inverted time dilation, which requires that you view observed phenomenon from an alternate perspective, and you turn the velocity of the Doppler shift of light into a time aspect, via the distance, speed, time, formula, the universe would then not be expanding, and we can consider this alternative model of a cyclic universe.  Can anyone help me with the math...?"

The energy gap E is fixed by the spin-spin interaction and is the same everywhere in the universe.

How do you know this?  And what if it were not?
 

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #174 on: 08/06/2016 21:53:32 »

 

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