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Author Topic: An analysis of the de Broglie equation  (Read 23230 times)

Offline alancalverd

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #625 on: 20/08/2016 16:32:29 »
I disagree, Jeffrey. The mathematics of relativity, at least in one linear dimension, is trivial. If you can't describe the physics of a linear universe in a selfconsistent manner, there's no point in delving into 3D or 4D mathematics.

The cyclic universe is certainly more intellectually appealing than either a big bang or a steady state, but the notion that the probability function of an atomic electron, or the halflife of a muon,  depends on its position in a gravitational field does not appear to make sense - yet.
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #626 on: 20/08/2016 16:41:44 »
i
You don't need to talk to a mathematician. You need to listen to a physicist. Or try reading your references. You will find the word "gravity" remarkably absent beyond

Quote
The proposal, first made in 1913, that the centrifugal force of the revolving electron just exactly balances the attractive force of the nucleus (in analogy with the centrifugal force of the moon in its orbit exactly counteracting the pull of the Earth's gravity) is a nice picture, but is simply untenable.
 

....now read on....
Why is it that you think that in changing the 'why' of a particles reaction to energy, this reverts the physics to a previously held concept?

Despite the fact that a nucleus and it's surrounding electrons do not resemble the moon in gravitational orbit to the earth, the process of how the electrons do interact with the nucleus has gravity potential energy and kinetic energy written all over it.

Somewhere in all those books you must have read of probability densities.

Gravitation is so weak in nuclear interactions that it may as well be absent. It takes a very large mass for gravitation to have any appreciable effect.

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Furthermore, you said the energy level has nothing to do with the mass of the electron, but as the link states, the energy level affects the mass of the electron as per current mathematics.

I'm not even sure what you are referring to here.

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Simply changing this concept of an increase in mass to being an increase in the rate of time, (observed by experiment via the greater frequency of energy transitions), in relation to an inverted gravitational time dilation of the open space of the atom, affords same observation for altered reason.

It's called spacetime not masstime.

Quote
This altered reason results in a fully described cyclic universe that finds its beginnings and ends of cycle in the black hole phenomenon, and needs no unobserved phenomenon to dimensionally balance its mechanics.  The model can explain all observation and gives explanation for previously unknown quantities and unexplained observations.

I'm all for having a laugh and a bit of fun but I don't really enjoy having 8+ years of serious thought process and related study dismissed out of hand by words like bollocks and poppycock, when sometimes it would seem that you haven't even read the post you are commenting on.

If you really believe the universe is cyclic then learn how physics describes the current situation before attempting to change it. I am afraid it is not possible to understand the required physics without understanding the mathematics. That is just the way it is. That is why you are looking for a mathematician to help you. If all the physicists(mathematicians) are telling you that you are wrong then you need to understand why.
To have an idea of what I am referring to you would have had to have been keeping up with the content.

The links provided, if read from beginning to end, give all the information you will need to understand what I am saying.

Yes - spacetime, not mass-time.  Its not the names of things that I'm altering.  (sigh).  Its the fact that the space part of spacetime that I'm altering remains un-warped by gravity and it is the 3 separate dimensions of time dilation that are causing the warping.  This causes distances to appear warped because it takes a longer or shorter amount of time to cover a unit of distance in open spaces that are being warped by time.  The warping of time is caused by gravity, by mass in relation to gravity, and by motion.

I did not start with a cyclic universe and work backward to the proposed inverted time dilation.  I started out with the concept of an inverted gravitational time dilation and worked out by means of checking to see how this notion changes current physics notions, that this idea would lead to the cyclic universe that I am describing.

This should really tell you that I have studied and referenced all aspects of this idea in relation to current physics.

Is this just a reference forum where one can be referenced to reading matter that pertains to physics, or is this a forum where physics ideas can be discussed in context and progressively?
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #627 on: 20/08/2016 17:04:45 »
So let's have another go at understanding your hypothesis.

Conventional general relativity says that

Quote
In the theory of relativity, time dilation is a difference of elapsed time between two events as measured by observers either moving relative to each other or differently situated from a gravitational mass or masses.

and in he case of gravitational dilation, the effect is not reciprocal.

Now in inverse time dilation theory .....

(please complete the sentence, with regard to the structure and content of the examples given.)
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #628 on: 20/08/2016 17:52:50 »
Well I am all ears. I don't know where it is heading.
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #629 on: 20/08/2016 18:19:43 »
So let's have another go at understanding your hypothesis.

Conventional general relativity says that

Quote
In the theory of relativity, time dilation is a difference of elapsed time between two events as measured by observers either moving relative to each other or differently situated from a gravitational mass or masses.

and in he case of gravitational dilation, the effect is not reciprocal.

Now in inverse time dilation theory .....

(please complete the sentence, with regard to the structure and content of the examples given.)
Now in inverted gravitational time dilation theory ..... time dilation is a difference of elapsed time between two events as measured by observers either moving relative to each other, or differently situated from a gravitational mass or masses...or observed of open space in relation to a mass.

The time dilation of an open space gravity field in relation to the mass causing this field runs counter directional in a gravity field to GR gravitational time dilation.  (hence the term inverted)  It is also incredibly hard to measure, or observe directly, because an observer, or observing clock placed in the open space is subject to GR time dilation due to the factor of the relationship then being mass in relation to the gravity field of the greater mass that is the cause of the gravity field being measured, and not a measure of the open space of the gravity field itself.

Inverted time theory then ditches the notion of relativistic mass for light, (ie: no kinetic energy, and no gravity potential energy), and then observes the shifts that light of all frequency experience in the open space gravity field as being purely inverted gravitational time dilation related.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #630 on: 20/08/2016 22:21:35 »
You have introduced the concept of an open space gravity field. How does this differ from the gravity field we know and love?
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #631 on: 20/08/2016 22:37:18 »
...(chuckle), that is funny - but:

An open space gravity field is the open space that surrounds any mass, and the energy of an open space gravity field decreases via the inverse square law with distance.  The concept of an open space gravity field inverted time dilation is differentiated from the phenomenon of GR gravitational time dilation by the fact of the open space gravity field being minus the mass of the observing mechanism.  ie: minus gravity potential energy.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #632 on: 20/08/2016 23:59:24 »
...(chuckle), that is funny - but:


When we consider the "buts",... I just couldn't help "but" remember a quote from Richard Feynman........

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself.......and you are the easiest person to fool."

I wish everyone participating in this thread to understand that this comment was not meant to be directed at anyone in particular. Nevertheless, every time we consider New Theories, that principle should never be overlooked.
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #633 on: 21/08/2016 00:46:26 »
...(chuckle), that is funny - but:


When we consider the "buts",... I just couldn't help "but" remember a quote from Richard Feynman........

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself.......and you are the easiest person to fool."

I wish everyone participating in this thread to understand that this comment was not meant to be directed at anyone in particular. Nevertheless, every time we consider New Theories, that principle should never be overlooked.
Great quote...

...and - albeit that currently held theories are currently held because they are the best mathematical fit to observation - the same principle cannot and must not be overlooked in our considerations of these current theories either...
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #634 on: 21/08/2016 09:59:33 »
So here's the definition we know and love
Quote
a gravitational field is used to explain gravitational phenomena, and is measured in newtons per kilogram (N/kg).

and
Quote
the open space gravity field being minus the mass of the observing mechanism.  ie: minus gravity potential energy.

You can't subtract kilograms (mass) from newtons per kilogram, nor can you subtract newton-meters (energy) from newtons per kilogram. So I think your definition needs a bit of rethinking. The power of dimensional analysis is that it is the quickest and simplest way of checking whether the physics makes sense.   
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #635 on: 21/08/2016 11:08:12 »
Alan you are vastly overcomplicating matters.

I quite simply mean that open space gravity field is a gravity field that is associated only with 1 mass.

A clock raised up in elevation to mass is a gravity field dealing with 2 masses. 

In the gravity field associated with 1 mass, gravity potential energy will not apply.

In the gravity field dealing with 2 masses, gravity potential will apply to the lesser mass raised above the greater mass.

...and that is all I meant.
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #636 on: 21/08/2016 13:00:33 »
OK - to put it a different way:

We have a mass.  Around this mass is a gravity field that decreases in energy via the inverse square law with distance.

Looking at radius 1,2,3,4,5 of open space gravity field around this mass... We put clocks at radius 1,2,3,4,5 and all these clock's are subject to gravity potential energy that will be escalating by degree from radius 1 through to radius 5.

Take the clocks away from these radius... We are now looking at radius 1,2,3,4,5 as an open space gravity field because we are minus the clocks.

The proposed inverted gravitational time dilation is a measure of what time is doing for the locations of radius 1,2,3,4,5 minus the clocks, and will follow the decreasing energy of the gravity field surrounding the mass decreasing via the inverse square law with the distance of radius 1,2,3,4,5...
ie: the proposed inverted gravitational time dilation...
(Less energy = decreased rate of time. ie: inverted time theory)

Looking at what's happening in this situation from radius 5,4,3,2,1 of the open space gravity field, the energy of the gravity field is increasing in energy via...hmmm, the inverse square law reversed* from radius 5 through to 1...
ie: inverted gravitational time dilation...
(More energy = increased rate of time. ie: inverted time theory)

((*is that the cubing law? ...and please do answer, its how I learn))

Put the clocks back at radius 1,2,3,4,5, and potential energy is now a factor that increases the energy of the clock by degrees from radius 1 through to 5...
ie: GR gravitational time dilation...
(More energy = increased rate of time. ie: inverted time theory)

Looking at the situation from radius 5,4,3,2,1, the factor of gravity potential energy decreases for the clock from radius 5 through to 1...
ie: GR gravitational time dilation...
(Less energy = decreased rate of time. ie: inverted time theory)
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #637 on: 21/08/2016 16:09:13 »
From the outset, I've been captivated by your theory timey. But the evidence in support of it is speculative at best. The problem is you want to trade one variable for another, and while this substitution may seen reasonable, finding reasons why such a substitution generates a better answer than we already have is weak at best.

I'm afraid that your theory has one Achilles Heal that renders it unviable in the final analysis. And that Achilles Heal would be the Lorentz transformation. If your theory is tenable, it requires that Lorentz transformations be inaccurate. The evidence for these contractions have been clearly supported by experiments at the LHC.

Whether acceleration due to velocity or acceleration due to gravitational influence, Lorentz contractions are the scientific standard.

It's difficult to explain your theory as viable without opposing the Lorentz transformation. And I'm disappointed for you timey, I was encouraged by the prospect that the cyclical model could be strengthened.

 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #638 on: 21/08/2016 16:43:55 »
Yes Ethos - you are entirely correct in your assessment...  My model renders the Lorentz transformations as incorrect.

In fact, David Cooper had been taking the Lorentz transformations to task in a most interesting manner on the thread I've linked to below.  You can see what I have to say about the matter on the last page...

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=67903.0
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #639 on: 21/08/2016 17:20:50 »
Yes Ethos - you are entirely correct in your assessment...  My model renders the Lorentz transformations as incorrect.


Following is a quote from Wikipedia:

"Heavy ions that are spherical when at rest should assume the form of "pancakes" or flat discs when traveling at near light speeds."

Go to Wikipedia and check out the page on "Length contraction". About half way down the page, they talk about the "Heavy ion" experiments.

BTW, I was mistaken when I said "the LHC" experiment. This experiment was done at Brookhaven National Lab. It shows the pancaking of the heavy ions at near light speeds and demonstrates the supporting evidence for the existence of length contraction.

 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #640 on: 21/08/2016 18:20:48 »
I've seen film of pilots faces experiencing what they call g-force.  I'm pretty certain this is not considered to be evidence of length contraction.

I've seen trains carriages that are travelling past me appear to be shorter than they really are when stationary because they are traveling past me at speed.  I'm pretty sure that this is also not considered to be evidence of length contraction.

A rocket in space is not going to suffer the same effect that a pilots face will, because in space there is no counter force of pressure acting against the rockets progress, as there is regarding the pilots face.  Logic tells me that this would also be the case for a heavy ion in space.

In the link below we can see that a length is only contracted when viewed from a reference frame other than the reference frame the length is situated in.  The length always retains its proper length in its own reference frame.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Length_contraction

"The deviation between the measurements in all inertial frames is given by the formulas for Lorentz transformation and time dilation (seeDerivation). It turns out, that the proper length remains unchanged and always denotes the greatest length of an object, yet the length of the same object as measured in another inertial frame is shorter than the proper length."

Therefore I reckon that a pancaked heavy ion at light speed is either a case of pilots face, or a case of a time frame dependant observation that is proportional to the difference in rate of time between the observed and the observation reference frames.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #641 on: 21/08/2016 23:02:39 »
OK - to put it a different way:

We have a mass.  Around this mass is a gravity field that decreases in energy via the inverse square law with distance.

Except it doesn't. If you are going to allow that a falling object gains kinetic energy (which it certainly does - they tend to accelerate) then it must be losing potential energy. Thus gravitiational potential must increase with distance.

The rest of your post seems to imply that the energy gradient of a gravitational field inverts if you insert a small mass at altitude. Now that's pretty impressive.

Put a cannonball in a shallow pit. Obviously as it is in contact with the earth, it forms part of the major gravitational mass.  Now let an electron from outer space approach the planet. The earth's gravity field gradient reverses, so the cannonball rises off the ground and snow flies off the top of mountains. I think not. 

The only alternative interpretation I can see is that time inverts locally in the absence of mass. The problem then is that I don't see a valid definition of time. If there is no mass, there can be no sequential events, therefore no dimension separating events. At this point, I'm sure you will say "what about light?" and the answer given by experiment is that it behaves in exactly the same way as a clock. So we are left with a notion that in deep space a zillion miles from anywhere, there are regions of inverse time, which have no impact on any physical phenomenon.

Now that's kinda cute because there certainly will be singularities within the universe where there is no mass, no photon, and no net gravitational field, and if your hypothesis holds water, time (whatever it means in that context) is inverted. I grant that it is marginally less bizarre as a concept than a 46-dimensional oscillating brane, but like string theory it either explains everything or explains nothing, and we have no way of telling which.
 
Anyway the inverse of an inverse square law is a square law. You're welcome.
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #642 on: 21/08/2016 23:50:03 »
Square law - thanks...

And for the trip through your rather vivid imagination, which was highly enjoyable, but alas completely unrelated to anything I'm discussing.

A mass's gravity fields energy only increases at altitude for another mass at altitude. (ie: gravity potential energy).  Without any mass at altitude from the mass causing the gravity field, the gravity field decreases by the inverse square law...

Let's for starters, to avoid this hang up you have about some existing dimension being inverted, rename this proposed 'additional' gravitational time dilation as Vikki Ramsay gravitational time dilation.

Vikki Ramsay gravitational time dilation is a proposed additional dimension of time dilation.  It is additional to SR and GR time dilation.

The proposed Vikki Ramsay gravitational time dilation is a measure of what time is doing in a gravity field where there is no mass, other than the mass causing the gravity field.

Vikki Ramsay gravitational the dilation is a measure of what time is doing in the open space that surrounds mass.

A cannonball will not float off into space due to the proposed Vikki Ramsay gravitational  time dilation...  Both a garden pea and a cannon ball will free fall towards earth at 9.807 m/s^2...

Vikki Ramsay time theory proposes that this acceleration of gravity is partially due to Vikki Ramsay gravitational time dilation.  That units of a time period get shorter, (ie: faster rate of time), as the gravity field gets stronger near mass.

This is an alternate means to same observation.

Both the cannonball and the pea are subject to GR gravitational time dilation.  If you attach a clock to the cannonball, or the pea, the clock will be travelling through the Vikki Ramsay gravitational time dilation of open space, but be experiencing GR gravitational time dilation, plus the SR slowing of time effects due its speed.

Can you understand now that Vikki Ramsay gravitational time dilation is a measure of what time is doing in open space... and Vikki Ramsay time theory states that GR gravitational time dilation is a measure of what time is doing for mass in open space.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #643 on: 22/08/2016 00:44:16 »


Therefore I reckon that a pancaked heavy ion at light speed is either a case of pilots face, or a case of a time frame dependant observation that is proportional to the difference in rate of time between the observed and the observation reference frames.
In truth, we are left with a single choice between these two, variable time or length contraction. If either one is the standard by which we view reality, the other can not be.

In the case of length contraction, we do have observational evidence from the particle scattering effect, whether this is only an observer related phenomenon or an actual reality is subject to debate.

Concerning your alternative; If the advance of time is actually changing, I haven't discovered how we could detect it, and presenting even more difficulty, how do we measure the change?

What we are left with is a choice between the two, and for the present, I see more evidence in support of the Lorentz transformation than I see for your changing rate of time occurring.

Taking present observation into consideration, I see the balance scale favoring length contraction timey. Until you can show us evidence to the contrary, science is forced to stay with what we know and can observe, leaving the alternative to some future discovery.

I'll leave you and others with a thought I recently had regarding length contraction:

We currently view Lorentz transformations as unidirectional along the path of acceleration. I was musing over the question about singularities within the black hole when it occurred to me that if we construct a three dimensional Lorentz contraction, namely spherical, this may, along with the gravitational compression, be responsible for the creation of the theoretical point singularity at the center of the black hole.

Just thinking aloud usually gets me in trouble timey, but I felt the thought might be of interest to a few of our members................

I've offered just about all I can to this conversation so I'm signing off for now. Hopefully, resolutions will be forthcoming and my wish is and will always be for your success regarding this theory...................Good luck my friend.
« Last Edit: 22/08/2016 04:52:29 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #644 on: 22/08/2016 11:20:12 »
Ethos - the Lorentz transformations calculate length contraction, and as I understand it, in their inverse form they calculate SR time dilation.  Current physics currently holds that both length contraction and SR time dilation are occurring.

Current physics states that there are 2 forms of time dilation occurring in the universe.  SR motion related time dilation and GR gravitational time dilation... and these changes in how the rate of time progresses are already measured, defined by mathematics, and experimentally confirmed.

So its not a case of either length contraction, OR time dilation as you suggest.  Current physics states both as occurring.

I am 'adding' Vikki Ramsay gravitational time dilation and stating 3 forms of time dilation instead of 2.  Length contraction is stated as a time frame dependant observation that is proportional to the difference in rate of time. (ie: doesn't really happen, just appears like that when observed from an alternate reference frame experiencing a differing rate of time)

P.S. You put forward some interesting notions, but I'm afraid I'm extrapolating the notion of black holes being extremely hot and comprised of plasma.

Thank you for the good will.  Best to you as well.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #645 on: 22/08/2016 13:32:16 »
Ethos - the Lorentz transformations calculate length contraction, and as I understand it, in their inverse form they calculate SR time dilation.  Current physics currently holds that both length contraction and SR time dilation are occurring.

Current physics states that there are 2 forms of time dilation occurring in the universe.  SR motion related time dilation and GR gravitational time dilation... and these changes in how the rate of time progresses are already measured, defined by mathematics, and experimentally confirmed.

So its not a case of either length contraction, OR time dilation as you suggest.  Current physics states both as occurring.


I have evidently misunderstood your position timey. I realize that currently we credit both time dilation and length contraction as components of relativity. My remarks were aimed at what I thought your model represented in comparison to the standard model.

I was under the impression that you were making a distinction between time dilation and what you keep referring to as a changing pace of time.

Correct me if I'm wrong with the following assumptions:

Are you saying that the only basic difference between your model and the standard model is that you have eliminated the Lorentz transformation from yours?

Because I was under the impression that you had not only removed the Lorentz contraction from your model, but that you had also added a second component of time alteration along with our standard time dilation.
« Last Edit: 22/08/2016 13:48:39 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #646 on: 22/08/2016 15:04:06 »
My model states, as current theory does, that there are 2 different dimensions of time dilation. These are SR time dilation, which is motion related, and GR gravitational time dilation that is gravity potential related.

My model then adds a 3rd dimension of time dilation.  Vikki Ramsay gravitational time dilation that is not gravity potential related, but gravity field related.

My model states that objects experiencing SR time dilation will appear length contracted, but it gives the observation of length contraction causation, and should negate the necessity for calculating both SR time dilation and length contraction appearances from the Newtonian time dependency.

The LIGO gravity wave increased the rate of time (as per Vikki Ramsay gravitational time dilation), for the duration of the gravity wave passing.  The light being sent down the tubes was, for the duration of the gravity wave passing, travelling at 299 792 458 metres per second that was a fraction shorter of a time period than the standard second.  Without realising that the gravity wave has fractionally increased the rate of time, the only explanation is that the tubes got fractionally shorter.  (But hang on a mo, length contraction does not occur in the reference frame of the observer!)

The Michael Morley experiment: This can almost be considered as the reverse scenario of the...blah, blah, etc.  I said all this on the gravity wave thread... If anyone actually understands me so far, I'll continue.
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #647 on: 22/08/2016 15:25:36 »
And just when you thought it was safe to go back to relativity... There is actually a possibility that timey is right. I don"t have time to explain at the moment.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #648 on: 22/08/2016 16:04:43 »


The Michael Morley experiment: This can almost be considered as the reverse scenario of the...blah, blah, etc.  I said all this on the gravity wave thread... If anyone actually understands me so far, I'll continue.
I haven't read through the gravity wave thread timey. Being 74 years of age and having very poor vision, I find it very difficult to keep up with every thread here. My aim is not to frustrate you timey, and I'm sorry if I've added to that in any way.

But at least, I now understand the proposed structure of your model much better. Agreeing with it may take additional evidence, especially where you make the distinction between gravitational potential and field relationships.

Give me some time to sort through this other thread before we take this conversation up again.  In the mean, I'm convinced that your views are worthy of serious consideration timey, and the proof is evidenced by the quality and quantity of participation rendered by fellows like Jeff and Alan who are highly respected here at TNS.

I'll get back with you a little later............................





« Last Edit: 22/08/2016 16:10:52 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline timey

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Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #649 on: 22/08/2016 16:47:50 »
And just when you thought it was safe to go back to relativity... There is actually a possibility that timey is right. I don"t have time to explain at the moment.
Ah Jeff - and just as I was putting the finishing touches to my Patreon pitch... (chuckle)

I'll await your next post...

Ethos, the thread that I was discussing the gravity wave on was called "4 a deeper discussion: is distance an absolute invariant?".  But I am happy to continue my explanation into the Michaelson Morley if you have understood what I have already said about the gravity wave and the LIGO results.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: An analysis of the de Broglie equation
« Reply #649 on: 22/08/2016 16:47:50 »

 

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