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Author Topic: Could dark matter predate the big bang?  (Read 594 times)

Offline thedoc

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Could dark matter predate the big bang?
« on: 09/06/2016 01:50:01 »
David Spence asked the Naked Scientists:
   Is there any evidence to support that space and time existed before the Big Bang???

It seems that all our evidence is based from the creation of matter, and not this of Dark Matter/Energy. I cannot see why Dark Matter/Energy existed before the Big Bang, rather than the Big Bang itself creating Space, Time and Dark Matter/Energy.

If 4% of all matter created makes up the Universe, it could be logical to say Space and Time existed before the Big Bang, and that Space and Time itself is infinite???

Scientists say the Universe is about 13 - 14 billion years old, but this is only based on matter and not Dark Matter/Energy. What if the Universe was only composed of Dark Matter/Energy and was much, much older than we think???

Our age of the Universe is only based on matter, and not this of Dark Matter/Energy.
What do you think?
« Last Edit: 09/06/2016 01:50:01 by _system »


 

Offline JohnDuffield

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Re: Could dark matter predate the big bang?
« Reply #1 on: 09/06/2016 14:34:25 »
Quote from: David Spence
Is there any evidence to support that space and time existed before the Big Bang?
No there isn't. But there's no actual evidence to the contrary either. 

Quote from: David Spence
It seems that all our evidence is based from the creation of matter, and not this of Dark Matter/Energy. I cannot see why Dark Matter/Energy existed before the Big Bang, rather than the Big Bang itself creating Space, Time and Dark Matter/Energy.
When you look closely at the stress-energy-momentum tensor  which "describes the density and flux of energy and momentum in spacetime", it's actually quite difficult to distinguish space and energy. And if you read the Einstein digital papers and note  "the energy of the gravitational field shall act gravitatively in the same way as any other kind of energy", you might think space is dark energy. IMHO it's as if space energy and dark energy are all different aspects of the same fundamental thing. The Big Bang is said to be when this thing came into existence, but there's no real explanation as to why. The explanation is not complete. 

Quote from: David Spence
If 4% of all matter created makes up the Universe, it could be logical to say Space and Time existed before the Big Bang
It could be. After all, something went bang. As to how or why, I don't know, but I am not satisfied by creation ex-nihilo claims.

Quote from: David Spence
and that Space and Time itself is infinite???
I think the fact that the universe is expanding means it can't be infinite.   

Quote from: David Spence
Scientists say the Universe is about 13 - 14 billion years old, but this is only based on matter and not Dark Matter/Energy. What if the Universe was only composed of Dark Matter/Energy and was much, much older than we think???
In a way the universe is composed of energy, because matter is made of energy, and space and energy are difficult to separate. And yes, it could be much older than we think. Maybe the big bang wasn't really the beginning. 

Quote from: David Spence
Our age of the Universe is only based on matter
I'd say our age for the universe is based on "winding back the expansion". The galaxies are all moving apart like the raisin-cake analogy. When you mentally reverse this, all the galaxies were in the same place 13.8 billion years ago. But nevertheless:

Quote from: David Spence
Could dark matter predate the big bang?
Yes it could.
 

Offline Blame

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Re: Could dark matter predate the big bang?
« Reply #2 on: 09/06/2016 18:39:53 »
Its sort of possible.

There is lots of evidence that something involving the bulk arrival of hydrogen about 14 billion years ago. Trying to push back the clock a few milliseconds and blame that on a bang fits (with perhaps a bit of fudging) some good evidence but who nicked the anti-matter?

Bit difficult to figure out what happened before this event, whatever it was, but just maybe it wasn't the beginning.

First we have to assume that the Hubble red shift doesn't mean that the universe is expanding. The red shift is real but its a property of space NOT the contents of space. You can get red shift without velocity. Gravity does it so maybe space does it. That gives us a universe that's as old as it wants to be. 

Next we have to give a reason for that hydrogen to turn up after the party had already started. An interaction with something like another universe should do it. Probably no space within our favorite 4 dimensions for another universe but no reason why our universe doesn't have to share other dimensions. I figure in those it would exist as a particle so there could lots of others all milling around and jostling each other. Any of them might have dumped on us but I say look for the bugger with the anti-matter.
   
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: Could dark matter predate the big bang?
« Reply #3 on: 09/06/2016 20:10:37 »
Dark matter and dark energy are an artifact of using a relative reference; earth, as the ground state of the universe to do an energy balance. Any relative reference is a poor choice, because one is not able to close an energy balance, since energy conservation is not based on relative energy.

Relative reference may work for velocity, but it does not work for energy. The train moving or the person standing at the station moving, may be relative with respect to velocity. However, each reference choice will require two different amounts of energy, unless the person weights as much as a train.

As an analogy of the reference problem that requires a dark energy/matter fudge factor, say you lived on a plateau that was one mile above sea level. The plateau is large and it is taboo to ever go to the edge to see you live on a plateau. The plateau, by tradition, is called the zero state, since it is large flat plain. However, since it is 1 mile above sea level, it will contain hidden potential energy.

One day someone notices the lake in the middle of the plateau is lowering. Because the plateau contains hidden potential energy, by being 1 mile above sea level, the water in the lake has used this potential; energy and entropy, to erode downward causing the lake to leak. But since the lake is called the point of zero energy, the dynamics for the leak cannot be due to any known energy. However, this energy is observed from affect; leaking. We will need to postulate "superdooper energy", to account for the movement of the still water.

One day, two young children were wandering into the taboo zone and reach the edge of the plateau. While looking over the edge, to see the view, the little boy falls over the edge and is trapped on a ledge. He is not hurt but he cat n't climb back up. His little girl friend runs back to tell the adults, her friend is trapped and he needs help. Nobody wants to help, since where they need to go in the taboo zone. But the little boy's mother pleads and a rescue squad is organized. But it is told to look only downward, less their eyes melt in their heads from superdooper energy.
 

Offline jerrygg38

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Re: Could dark matter predate the big bang?
« Reply #4 on: 10/06/2016 14:31:10 »
That is a good possibility for sure. The big bang is an explosion of highly compressed energy. What was compressed? We see today we have about 4 percent visible matter/energy and 96 percent dark matter/energy. It appears to me that if we compress dark energy a point will be reached where it will explode. So the most likely solution is that the universe oscillates from a compression of pure dark energy to and explosion at big bang and then the radiation of visible matter/energy back into dark matter/energy which expands to a maximum radius and then compresses again over and over forever.  This possibility gives us a universe which always existed.
 

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Re: Could dark matter predate the big bang?
« Reply #4 on: 10/06/2016 14:31:10 »

 

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