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Author Topic: Is everything subjectively relative to an observer and nothing objectively real?  (Read 1176 times)

Offline Alan McDougall

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Is everything subjectively relative to an observer and nothing objectively real?

(Not in a philosophical sense)


Alan


 

Offline Bill S

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How would you know if something was "objectively real"?
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Quote from: Alan McDougall
Is everything subjectively relative to an observer and nothing objectively real?
No. Not even relativity suggests that. In relativity there are things which are observer dependent and there are things which aren't. For example; the proper mass (aka rest mass) of a particle is independent of the observer while the relativistic mass is observer dependent. The speed of a car is observer dependent but the number of passengers in the car isn't.
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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As the leading authority on the matter, I can most certainly assure you that reality is in fact objectively real.  Next question  :P
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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How would you know if something was "objectively real"?

That is my precise point?
 

Offline Colin2B

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How would you know if something was "objectively real"?
Because it would not be subjective.
It is a strange and puzzling fact that in our house everyone avoids trying to walk through the walls, even blind people. I assume the wall may have some form of objective reality.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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How would you know if something was "objectively real"?
Because it would not be subjective.
It is a strange and puzzling fact that in our house everyone avoids trying to walk through the walls, even blind people. I assume the wall may have some form of objective reality.

Blind people might not know about the wall and believe that it did not exist and from their subjective point of view believe that no such wall was "objectively blocking their path" and walk right into it.

I believe that an object/subject divide actually exists. If I am to be an internally consistent,  then I have to realize that everything is objective, and subjectivity is just a useful term to describe what is private to an individuals  experience.

Subjective experiences are actually objective experiences, but restrained to the privacy of an one individual.

The objective/subjective divide lies precisely in the fact that what is objective is certainty true, and that what is subjective is not certainly true.

There is ultimate objective reality, however an individual may not know it.

There is much more to this argument than one at first glance might imagine and we only have a dim view of the totality of reality and our perception of it is very limited at best.
« Last Edit: 17/06/2016 09:27:26 by Alan McDougall »
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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https://blog.theuniversesolved.com/2014/08/08/objective-vs-subjective-reality/


Objective Reality – a reality that completely exists independent of any conscious entity to observe it.
Subjective Reality – what we perceive.

As it is well known, subjective reality is “subject” to an elaborate set of filters, any one of which can modify a perception of that reality; sensory apparatus (e.g. the rods and cones in our eyes), sensory processing (e.g. the visual cortex), higher level brain function, and psychological factors (e.g. expectations). As such, what one person experiences is always different than what any other person experiences, but usually in subtle ways.

Fundamentally, one cannot prove the existence of an objective reality. We can only infer its properties through observations, which of course, are subjective. However, it may be possible to prove that objective reality doesn’t exist, if, for example, it can be shown that the properties inferred via a particular observer fundamentally contradict properties inferred via another observer.

But even then those inferences may be hopelessly subjective.

Then is it possible to prove anything? (Comment by Alan)

 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Blind people might not know about the wall and believe that it did not exist and from their subjective point of view believe that no such wall was "objectively blocking their path" and walk right into it.

So?  Their subjective ignorance has no impact on the validity of the objective reality.  Belief can never override fact. 

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I believe that an object/subject divide actually exists. If I am to be an internally consistent,  then I have to realize that everything is objective, and subjectivity is just a useful term to describe what is private to an individuals  experience.

Obviously there is a divide, and of course some things are objective and some subjective.  Not sure what you're even trying to say here.  But not everything is objective; only those things that are, are.  And subjectivity merely means that one's opinions and feelings are influencing their perception, rather than fact.  Someone can still have a private experience that is rooted in objectivity.

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Subjective experiences are actually objective experiences, but restrained to the privacy of an one individual.

This doesn't even make any sense.  A singular experience can either be subjective to an individual or objective.  It can't be both.  And of course subjectivity is restrained to an individual; since that's inherent within its very definition.

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The objective/subjective divide lies precisely in the fact that what is objective is certainty true, and that what is subjective is not certainly true.

Ummm, yes, obviously objectivity is rooted in fact and subjectivity rooted in opinion.  Not really sure what the greater point you're trying to make is...  Also not sure why you keep using the term certainly true.  Something's either true or it's not true.  It's kinda a binary concept.

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There is ultimate objective reality, however an individual may not know it.

Ummmm, ok.  Again, that's kinda an obvious concept no?

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There is much more to this argument than one at first glance might imagine and we only have a dim view of the totality of reality and our perception of it is very limited at best.

Some of us have a greater view than others...  And I'm not sure how much more to the argument there is, or even what your argument overall is.  You've just in a very verbose way repeated the basic concept that was is objective is rooted in fact and what is subjective is rooted in opinion.  I'm not sure anything deeper has even been stated, with all due respect...

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Objective Reality – a reality that completely exists independent of any conscious entity to observe it.
Subjective Reality – what we perceive.

Yay, more reiterations of the definitions of the words lol.  I will say that subjective reality is not merely what we perceive, but what we perceive when we inject our opinions, feelings and biases, especially when we use those perceptions to override fact.  Yes, it is possible to perceive things objectively.

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As it is well known, subjective reality is “subject” to an elaborate set of filters, any one of which can modify a perception of that reality; sensory apparatus (e.g. the rods and cones in our eyes), sensory processing (e.g. the visual cortex), higher level brain function, and psychological factors (e.g. expectations). As such, what one person experiences is always different than what any other person experiences, but usually in subtle ways.

Thank you for describing the concept of perception to all of us.  We all are grateful.

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Fundamentally, one cannot prove the existence of an objective reality. We can only infer its properties through observations, which of course, are subjective. However, it may be possible to prove that objective reality doesn’t exist, if, for example, it can be shown that the properties inferred via a particular observer fundamentally contradict properties inferred via another observer.

Utter nonsense.  But that is all proof of your own subjectivity; injecting your bias into your statement to try and prove a point that you subjectively wanna make.  But saying it as a statement of fact does not make it so.  And furthermore, the mere fact that two people don't agree on something does not then 'prove' that both are wrong.  That's just absurd.

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But even then those inferences may be hopelessly subjective.

They may be, they may not be. Again not sure of your greater point.

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Then is it possible to prove anything? (Comment by Alan)

Of course it's possible, just not sure it's possible to prove it to you lol.  (Comment by iamreality, in case for some reason it was impossible for anybody to actually look at the post and see the big giant name attached to it lmao)
 

Offline Bill S

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Quote from: Colin
It is a strange and puzzling fact that in our house everyone avoids trying to walk through the walls, even blind people. I assume the wall may have some form of objective reality.

The obvious question with which to follow that is: How do you know that your house is real? However, that leads only to silly solipsism, so I'll not ask it.
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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leads only to silly solipsism, so I'll not ask it.
Ok, I totally had to look up that word, I can't lie lol. But thanks for it! I love when someone uses a term I hadn't heard before! And I actually was familiar with the concept, just didn't realize that's what it was called!  ;D
 

Offline garth john greiner

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Everything that occurs in this universe is most certainly objectively real how we as individuals observe reality is subjective. As a species we have a strong drive to study and understand physical things and our subjective observations of what
we study is part of the process of quantifying the universe we live in. So in answer to your question the functionality and processes of this universe are very real and our individual subjectively relative observations are part of a very big
process of understanding our relationship with the universe we live in
 

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