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Author Topic: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?  (Read 4982 times)

Online jeffreyH

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #50 on: 23/06/2016 10:12:44 »
Charger plugged in now where was I. Advanced Calculus second edition David V Widder. Differential Forms and the Geometry of General RelativitY Tevian Dray. A Course in Group Theory John F Humphreys. Introduction to Quantum Mechanics David J Griffiths. Introduction to Elementary Particles revised second edition David Griffiths. Numerical Relativity Solving Einstein's Equations on the Computer Thomas W Baumgarte & Stuart L Shapiro.

Now I have also read The Quantum story by Jim Baggott and one of Smolin's books. Let me ask you this John. Which tomes have you read that gives you the right to criticise others in their reading habits? If you simply say the Einstein paper then you are far too out of date to make such statements and should apologise like a gentleman. You are a gentleman aren't you?
 

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #51 on: 23/06/2016 13:33:30 »
John I do apologise I omitted some of the titles I have read. I know how you like accuracy. A Student's Guide to Lagrangians and Hamiltonians Patrick Hamill. Galaxy Formation second edition Malcolm S Longair. Tensor Calculus J L Synge & A schild. Emmy Noether's Wonderful Theorem Dwight E Neuenschwander. The last one I found was The Absolute Differential Calculus (Calculus of Tensors) Tullio Levi-Civito.

The Smolin book was Three Roads To Quantum Gravity. Maybe this one is a teensy bit pop science.
 

Offline timey

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #52 on: 23/06/2016 14:55:11 »
...When one is measuring gravitational time dilation at ground level with clocks 1 meter apart.  The clocks are in separate reference frames from each other, but the observer is in 1 reference frame with both clocks and is measuring a difference in time between the clocks.  Therefore it is not necessary to state a reference frame in order to address the question.
Particularly since a reference frame is an abstract thing that has no actual physical existence. However, those clocks do. 

The elevated clock ticks marginally faster than the lower clock, and we can say that the clock is measuring a shorter second.
You can, but if you did you'd be missing the trick. Those clocks are likely to be NIST optical clocks, as mentioned here: "But nowadays the precision of the clocks is such that we have to worry, when we compare clocks, if one clock in one lab is 30 centimeters higher than the clock in the other lab, we can see the difference in the rates they run at."   

My question is concerning whether the shorter second is a measurement of what time is doing for the location of elevation, or a measurement of what time is for the mechanism of the clock, being the caesium atom, when elevated at that location.
The caesium clock uses microwaves. It's still an optical clock of sorts. And inside an optical clock, there is no literal time flowing in there, or "doing" anything. When an optical clock goes slower when it's lower, it's because light goes slower when it's lower. See the second paragraph here:



I'm afraid some of those books you've been reading are popscience books which do not get to the heart of the physics. You should read the Einstein digital papers instead.

Yes, I think you are right, a reference frame is an abstract concept.  A clock isn't.  But a reference frame of a location that doesn't have anything of mass in it, is still a physical location.

...yes of course the NIST (which is what I was talking about) observer observes the clocks running at a different rate. That is my whole point.  We don't need to attribute the clocks different reference frames, we can say the gravity field is the singular reference frame and that changes in the gravitational gradient causes all mass to have a change in energy and frequency of physical events.  And that based on the observation of the caesium atom, that it is a higher energy level that will 'increase' the frequency of physical events.

You make an interesting point on the microwave aspect of the mechanism of the clock.  The relativistic mass calculation of the light will not be affected by gravity potential energy.  The mass of the electron in its relationship and energy proportionality, with respect to the rest of the particle constituents of the atom, will be affected by gravity potential energy.

Of course a translation of Einstein's papers is a translation and I have read the papers.  I'm delighted that you have posted that particular passage of Einstein's writings.  I found it to be of great interest to me.

I don't know why people spit the words pop-science as though the books this describes are filled with miss-information.  The majority of the books I have read by prominent physicists have been written with both the lay person and the physicist in mind, also providing concise description of mathematical process in word format for the non-mathematician.
 

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #53 on: 23/06/2016 15:33:23 »
I am awaiting John's list of reading material with great interest. I am not being at all flippant either. I am hoping he has read something other than some historical artifacts. Things have moved on considerably in the intervening years.
 

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #54 on: 23/06/2016 15:39:14 »
Karl Schwarzschild found two solutions to the field equations in 1916. One was an exterior solution and the other an interior solution. That was the start of the community development of gr. That was only months after Einstein's publication. No man is an island and in physics that is particularly so. Today we have numerical relativists that could not have existed in Einstein's day since the technology didn't exist.
 

Offline JohnDuffield

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #55 on: 23/06/2016 15:42:51 »
Yes, I think you are right, a reference frame is an abstract concept.  A clock isn't. But a reference frame of a location that doesn't have anything of mass in it, is still a physical location.
No problem with the location. But do note lower down in that paragraph where Einstein says special relativity is "nowhere precisely realized in the real world". That's because the inertial reference frame where you measure the local speed of light in the room you're in, is a region of infinitesimal extent. 

...yes of course the NIST (which is what I was talking about) observer observes the clocks running at a different rate. That is my whole point.  We don't need to attribute the clocks different reference frames, we can say the gravity field is the singular reference frame and that changes in the gravitational gradient causes all mass to have a change in energy and frequency of physical events.
That's pretty much what Einstein was saying. Unfortunately some people rather mangle relativity. They said "Einstein said x" when actually he said the opposite. Then when you pick them up on it, they come out with things like "things have moved on since Einstein's day".

You make an interesting point on the microwave aspect of the mechanism of the clock. The relativistic mass calculation of the light will not be affected by gravity potential energy.  The mass of the electron in its relationship and energy proportionality, with respect to the rest of the particle constituents of the atom, will be affected by gravity potential energy.
Correct. That's why we have the mass deficit. When you drop an electron gravity converts some of its mass-energy into kinetic energy, which is typically dissipated. The mass-energy of the electron at the lower elevation is less than what it was at the higher elevation. You do work on the electron to lift it back up, and add energy to it. 

Of course a translation of Einstein's papers is a translation and I have read the papers.  I'm delighted that you have posted that particular passage of Einstein's writings.  I found it to be of great interest to me.
There's other references like that. See for example the penultimate paragraph here.

I don't know why people spit the words pop-science as though the books this describes are filled with miss-information.  The majority of the books I have read by prominent physicists have been written with both the lay person and the physicist in mind, also providing concise description of mathematical process in word format for the non-mathematician.
I'm afraid they sometimes do contain misinformation. But you only appreciate this when you do your own research and read the original material:



Anyhow, what happens to the passage of time near a black hole? It stops. You might prefer to say light stops,  because the "coordinate" speed of light is zero at the event horizon. But either way, gravitational time dilation goes infinite.  This formation and growth of black holes on mathpages makes for interesting reading:

"...These two views are operationally equivalent outside event horizons, but they tend to lead to different conceptions of the limit of gravitational collapse. According to the field interpretation, a clock runs increasingly slowly as it approaches the event horizon (due to the strength of the field), and the natural "limit" of this process is that the clock asymptotically approaches "full stop" (i.e., running at a rate of zero). It continues to exist for the rest of time, but it's "frozen" due to the strength of the gravitational field. Within this conceptual framework there's nothing more to be said about the clock's existence."

This "Baez" article is worth a read too. It's written by relativist Don Koks from Adelaide.

"Einstein talked about the speed of light changing in his new theory. In the English translation of his 1920 book "Relativity: the special and general theory" he wrote: "according to the general theory of relativity, the law of the constancy of the velocity [Einstein clearly means speed here, since velocity (a vector) is not in keeping with the rest of his sentence] of light in vacuo, which constitutes one of the two fundamental assumptions in the special theory of relativity [...] cannot claim any unlimited validity.  A curvature of rays of light can only take place when the velocity [speed]  of propagation of light varies with position." This difference in speeds is precisely that referred to above by ceiling and floor observers."
« Last Edit: 23/06/2016 15:52:39 by JohnDuffield »
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #56 on: 23/06/2016 15:54:44 »
John it is obvious to anyone reading this that you are avoiding any question that has a bearing on your background knowledge. You cannot learn physics by reading Einstein's correspondence or his published papers. They are but a small part of the picture. I have asked you on several occasions to answer specific questions on topics you have posted links to to back up your assertions. All remain unanswered. Now you seem unwilling to establish the extent of your knowledge of physics. Until you do so may I ask you to go and sit on the naughty step for 1 minute for every year of your age. Then when you can act like a grown up maybe we will make some progress.
 

Offline timey

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #57 on: 23/06/2016 16:34:26 »
this "Baez" article is worth a read too. It's written by relativist Don Koks from Adelaide.

Ok - John.  Well yes, you do happen to pick up on exactly the parts of Einstein's writings that interest me.  Let's not forget that he added a cosmological constant which he then retracted.  Hubble postulated that the velocities of the Doppler shift of redshift was indicative of the speed at which a light source is travelling away from us at, and the concept of a static universe faded as the Big Bang theory was born.

My question was not 'what happens to the passage of time near a black hole', Colin named the thread when he split it.  I know full well that the consequence of the maths of GR is that time runs slow for the black hole.

My question is:
"When the elevated atomic clock measures a faster rate of time (relative to a clock placed lower), is it measuring what time dilation is doing 'for' the location it is elevated in, or is it just measuring what time dilation is doing for its own self when elevated at that location?"

P.S.  I will read the article, thanks.
« Last Edit: 23/06/2016 16:36:40 by timey »
 

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #58 on: 23/06/2016 16:44:37 »
In the Baez article the paragraph following the one John posted says this.

"In special relativity, the speed of light is constant when measured in any inertial frame.  In general relativity, the appropriate generalisation is that the speed of light is constant in any freely falling reference frame (in a region small enough that tidal effects can be neglected).  In this passage, Einstein is not talking about a freely falling frame, but rather about a frame at rest relative to a source of gravity.  In such a frame, the not-quite-well-defined "speed" of light can differ from c, basically because of the effect of gravity (spacetime curvature) on clocks and rulers."

This is NOT what John implied. Caveat Lector.
 

Offline timey

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #59 on: 23/06/2016 16:54:10 »
John I do apologise I omitted some of the titles I have read. I know how you like accuracy. A Student's Guide to Lagrangians and Hamiltonians Patrick Hamill. Galaxy Formation second edition Malcolm S Longair. Tensor Calculus J L Synge & A schild. Emmy Noether's Wonderful Theorem Dwight E Neuenschwander. The last one I found was The Absolute Differential Calculus (Calculus of Tensors) Tullio Levi-Civito.

The Smolin book was Three Roads To Quantum Gravity. Maybe this one is a teensy bit pop science.

Jeff - In each and every science book that I have read, the author fully cites his source of information in the index.  If one is further interested one simply investigates the cited material. 

I'm afraid you are behind the times with your conceptions on education.  Anyone with an interest can investigate and learn about anything these days just by cross referencing the Internet.  Things have moved on... don't you realise?
 

Offline timey

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #60 on: 23/06/2016 17:06:12 »
In the Baez article the paragraph following the one John posted says this.

"In special relativity, the speed of light is constant when measured in any inertial frame.  In general relativity, the appropriate generalisation is that the speed of light is constant in any freely falling reference frame (in a region small enough that tidal effects can be neglected).  In this passage, Einstein is not talking about a freely falling frame, but rather about a frame at rest relative to a source of gravity.  In such a frame, the not-quite-well-defined "speed" of light can differ from c, basically because of the effect of gravity (spacetime curvature) on clocks and rulers."

This is NOT what John implied. Caveat Lector.

I haven't had a chance to read the link, but I've heard that passage before Jeff, so I have probably read similar already.

Yes - it is the curvature in relation to the mention of variability in the speed of light that interests me.  Clearly the curvature of space via the theory of GR is caused by the proportionality of time dilation in relation to the Lorentz transformations and is based on the concept of the caesium atomic clock measuring what time dilation is doing 'for' the location of gravity field it is placed in.  (logic that comes unstuck when the energy transitions of the atoms that make up the physique of an observer with the clock are also considered)
« Last Edit: 23/06/2016 17:10:25 by timey »
 

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #61 on: 23/06/2016 17:59:34 »
The problem is anyone can set up a website and start writing their interpretation of physics. They may have no qualifications or the required background to do so. They can often make it very convincing by plagiarising other online sources. Then you have psuedoscience.

What is the expression? No pain, no gain. It can seem like pain at times studying physics the correct way but the alternative is to pick up lots of misconceptions and misunderstand the material. You have to practice at anything to become accomplished at it. In terms of physics that is practice at mathematics.
 

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #62 on: 23/06/2016 18:04:30 »
I am at the moment a web developer so I am well aware of what is available online. I am so up with the times you wouldn't believe yet my argument still stands. Ask any physicist. There are some hanging around here I believe.
 

Offline JohnDuffield

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #63 on: 23/06/2016 18:09:37 »
My question is:
"When the elevated atomic clock measures a faster rate of time (relative to a clock placed lower), is it measuring what time dilation is doing 'for' the location it is elevated in, or is it just measuring what time dilation is doing for its own self when elevated at that location?"
It's not really doing either. A clock features some kind of regular cyclical local motion, be it the motion of an oscillating crystal or microwaves or something else. The inner mechanism of a clock isn't called a movement for nothing. It then uses gears or electronics or something else to summarise this motion to give some kind of cumulative display that "shows the time". The upper clock goes faster because electromagnetic processes go faster at that higher elevation. That includes light, piezoelectric crystals, and, because of the wave nature of matter, electrochemical signals in your brain and body, and ordinary clockwork.     

All this might sound unfamiliar, but it's in line with Einstein. Have a look at A World without Time: The Forgotten Legacy of Godel and Einstein. Note though that IMHO the message isn't time does not exist, it's time exists like heat exists.

Clearly the curvature of space via the theory of GR is caused by the proportionality of time dilation
It isn't quite like that. Light curves because the speed of light varies, and we model this as curved spacetime, but curved spacetime is a curvature of the metric, not a curvature of space and time. It's like a curvature in your plot of clock rates at different elevations. See this Baez article:

"Similarly, in general relativity gravity is not really a 'force', but just a manifestation of the curvature of spacetime. Note: not the curvature of space, but of spacetime. The distinction is crucial. "
 

Offline timey

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #64 on: 23/06/2016 18:15:09 »
The problem is anyone can set up a website and start writing their interpretation of physics. They may have no qualifications or the required background to do so. They can often make it very convincing by plagiarising other online sources. Then you have psuedoscience.

What is the expression? No pain, no gain. It can seem like pain at times studying physics the correct way but the alternative is to pick up lots of misconceptions and misunderstand the material. You have to practice at anything to become accomplished at it. In terms of physics that is practice at mathematics.

Yes there are a load of old rubbish websites.  I'm quite certain that no load of old rubbish websites have been cited as sources of information by "any" of the authors of the books I've mentioned.  These are highly respected "working' physicists, or writers, who have reputations to upkeep.  Get a grip will you...!

And, it's a load of old rubbish that you need to know maths to contribute to physics.  Non- mathematicians have clearly contributed.

What is your problem?  Can't you just have an actual discussion about the topic in hand?
 

Offline timey

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #65 on: 23/06/2016 18:27:52 »
It's not really doing either.

Ah - but it has to be doing one or the other John.  The clocks mechanism of electron energy transitions are affected by the gravity potential the atoms are subject to at elevation.  The location that the clock is elevated at is not affected by gravity potential energy, as the location has no mass to be affected by such.
 

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #66 on: 23/06/2016 18:32:03 »
John has just stated that gravity is not a force. Do you agree with him Timey? Whatever your answer is what do you base your answer on? This is at the heart of the matter so is not a trivial point. You may decide not to answer. That is your choice. John hides from difficult questions.
 

Offline JohnDuffield

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #67 on: 23/06/2016 19:09:15 »
Ah - but it has to be doing one or the other John. The clocks mechanism of electron energy transitions are affected by the gravity potential the atoms are subject to at elevation. The location that the clock is elevated at is not affected by gravity potential energy, as the location has no mass to be affected by such.
See this description by Einstein. A concentration of energy in the guise of a massive planet "conditions" the surrounding space, affecting its properties. This effect diminishes with distance in a non-linear fashion, such that higher and higher clocks are affected less and less. Imagine you could place clocks throughout an equatorial slice through the Earth and the surrounding space, then plot clock rates such that faster clocks gave a datapoint higher up in a 3D plot. Your plot would end up looking like the depiction of Newtonian gravitational potential here. This is akin to the depiction in the Wikipedia Riemann curvature tensor article.
 

Offline timey

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #68 on: 23/06/2016 19:09:56 »
John has just stated that gravity is not a force. Do you agree with him Timey? Whatever your answer is what do you base your answer on? This is at the heart of the matter so is not a trivial point. You may decide not to answer. That is your choice. John hides from difficult questions.

John was quoting from the last paragraph of the pages on the link he provided.  I'm not sure if that actually means this is 'his' view, or if he is pointing out that the author has this view.  On either case I don't see whether he agrees with this view or not as pertinent to the discussion.

General relativity has an incredibly complex description of what is going on between gravity and mass to cause curvature.

I have already given my far more 'simple and elegant' alternate in New Theories, and with respect to Colin's input in this thread, and the forum rules, I will not discuss it here.

I can say that yes gravity is a force. And that it is the acceleration of gravity that I am looking at.
« Last Edit: 23/06/2016 19:12:38 by timey »
 

Offline JohnDuffield

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #69 on: 23/06/2016 19:12:53 »
Timey, have a look at the Einstein digital papers for places where Einstein says "gravitational force".

I'm afraid Jeffrey is one of those popscience physicists whose physics knowledge is rather scant. And he isn't making a sincere contribution to this thread I'm afraid. Sorry. 
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #70 on: 23/06/2016 19:25:57 »
When you were last posting to this forum John you said the graviton didn't exist and yet we have subsequently had two detections of gravitational waves. Since the electromagnetic wave is evidence of the photon then I would expect the gravitational wave to be evidence of the graviton. A spin 2 force carrying boson. I suppose you are now going to rubbish all the physicists involved in LIGO. Force carriers are evidence of what? Speak up John they can't hear you at the back.
 

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #71 on: 23/06/2016 19:29:11 »
John I think people have learnt a lot from my contribution. They can also search other forums to see what your reception was there too.
 

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #72 on: 23/06/2016 20:41:51 »
Now here is an old thread from thephysicsforum.com where John was going be the name Farsight. It is informative to note that not only did a retired physics professor have problems with John's contributions but the only reason they didn't ban him was that they thought it would be useful to use his posts to correct misconceptions in physics. He also resorted to the Einstein papers on that forum too. I would have no problem with John if he was honest about his knowledge and was willing to learn physics. However he thinks that mentioning Einstein enough will improve his brand in the same way a baked bean manufacturer will bombard you with adverts about their product. Ultimately John would like nothing more than his name being synonynmous with that of Einstein. The following link will be enlightening.

http://www.thephysicsforum.com/special-general-relativity/5591-mass-can-converted-energy.html
 

Offline timey

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #73 on: 23/06/2016 20:59:05 »
Ah - but it has to be doing one or the other John. The clocks mechanism of electron energy transitions are affected by the gravity potential the atoms are subject to at elevation. The location that the clock is elevated at is not affected by gravity potential energy, as the location has no mass to be affected by such.
See this description by Einstein. A concentration of energy in the guise of a massive planet "conditions" the surrounding space, affecting its properties. This effect diminishes with distance in a non-linear fashion, such that higher and higher clocks are affected less and less. Imagine you could place clocks throughout an equatorial slice through the Earth and the surrounding space, then plot clock rates such that faster clocks gave a datapoint higher up in a 3D plot. Your plot would end up looking like the depiction of Newtonian gravitational potential here. This is akin to the depiction in the Wikipedia Riemann curvature tensor article.

John - in this stating of the clock being less and less affected by the gravity potential of its elevation above the greater mass, this is describing a relationship between the mass of the clock and the mass of the earth.
*** It does not describe a relationship between mass and open space. ***
The sole reason that it is thought that time runs slow for a black hole is because time runs faster out in open space.  If there is any other reason that a black holes time is thought to run slow, someone, anyone, please, for goodness sake speak up now!!!

P.S.  I'm sorry, I have to disagree...(although 'in this particular instance' perhaps not where the contribution is concerned /: ...)  Jeff is a indeed a conundrum, but I maintain my assessment of him as being 'potentially' quite brilliant, but so far completely wasted in application.
 

Offline timey

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
« Reply #74 on: 23/06/2016 21:08:54 »
Jeff - I don't know what John is selling, if anything, and tbh, I don't care.  He just seems to be quoting Einstein, and providing respectable (if they can be called that) wiki links as far as I can see.  What is observable is that he is remaining within the context of the thread, and you, I don't know what's got into you, you are acting like child.  You don't give 2 hoots what John thinks, so what's it all about mate?
 

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Re: What happens to the passage of time close to a black hole?
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