# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: hf + hf = E?  (Read 856 times)

#### Thebox

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##### hf + hf = E?
« on: 21/06/2016 12:24:41 »
Two photons occupying the same space at the same time equals energy?

(1hf+1hf)^∞ =∞E?

Also I believe this shows that any ''0'' point of space can contain an amount of infinite energy?

In short can we fit an infinite amount of photons in any singularity point of space because the Photons are mass-less and can pass through each other?

blue ''light'' is ''denser'' than red ''light'' because more Photons occupy less space where in red ''light'' the photons are stretched out and occupy more space?

added diagram so you understand my question.

« Last Edit: 21/06/2016 13:03:53 by Thebox »

#### evan_au

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##### Re: hf + hf = E?
« Reply #1 on: 22/06/2016 11:02:37 »
Quote from: TheBox
Two photons occupying the same space at the same time equals energy?
A photon has energy.
Two photons have more energy.

Energy means different things to different people, but you cannot say that any number of photons equals energy, since there are other forms of energy that don't consist purely of photons (see separate thread: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=67135.0)

Quote
(1hf+1hf)^∞ =∞E?
I don't understand where the exponentiation (^) comes in; if you are talking about cramming more photons into a small region of space, then simple multiplication would describe the intended effect.

Quote
I believe this shows that any ''0'' point of space can contain an amount of infinite energy?
You can't cram a photon into a 0-dimensional point in space, because the photon has a finite probability of appearing outside that region (unless you let a black hole do all the work for you).

There are practical limits to how much light energy you can cram into a small space - once the energy density gets high enough, you can produce a particle and anti-particle (eg electron + positron).

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: hf + hf = E?
« Reply #2 on: 22/06/2016 11:19:12 »
There are practical limits to how much light energy you can cram into a small space - once the energy density gets high enough, you can produce a particle and anti-particle (eg electron + positron).

Whoa hold the bus. Do you realise that could be the mechanism for the big bang?

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: hf + hf = E?
« Reply #3 on: 22/06/2016 11:34:18 »
It could all be to do with conversion of massless particles to massive particles where the distribution of matter to antimatter starts off equal. This would reduce initial photon density.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_creation

« Last Edit: 22/06/2016 11:39:40 by jeffreyH »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: hf + hf = E?
« Reply #4 on: 22/06/2016 12:29:36 »
Quote from: TheBox
Two photons occupying the same space at the same time equals energy?
A photon has energy.
Two photons have more energy.

Energy means different things to different people, but you cannot say that any number of photons equals energy, since there are other forms of energy that don't consist purely of photons (see separate thread: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=67135.0)

Quote
(1hf+1hf)^∞ =∞E?
I don't understand where the exponentiation (^) comes in; if you are talking about cramming more photons into a small region of space, then simple multiplication would describe the intended effect.

Quote
I believe this shows that any ''0'' point of space can contain an amount of infinite energy?
You can't cram a photon into a 0-dimensional point in space, because the photon has a finite probability of appearing outside that region (unless you let a black hole do all the work for you).

There are practical limits to how much light energy you can cram into a small space - once the energy density gets high enough, you can produce a particle and anti-particle (eg electron + positron).

What is the dimension of a Photon?

I was classing the Photon as the 0 point and then when you merge lots of Photons together, you have a lot of energy in a 0 point.

When you have a lot of energy you have the potential for a lot of work, I think that the 0 point would gain +q and then expand by its own +q versus +q process.

I added the power of to denote that it could be an infinite process in continuation, although there maybe  a limit of the amount of photons the 0 point can contain before it self ''inflates''.

« Last Edit: 22/06/2016 12:39:54 by Thebox »

#### evan_au

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##### Re: hf + hf = E?
« Reply #5 on: 22/06/2016 23:28:18 »
Quote from: TheBox
I think that the 0 point would gain +q
What do you mean by "q"?

In physics, "q" is often used to denote electrical charge.

But the law of conservation of charge says that no matter how many uncharged photons you cram together, the result will also be uncharged. That is why pair production produces equal quantities of + & - charges (eg positron+electron).

Quote
and then expand by its own +q versus +q process.
The negative charges balance the positive charges, so there is no overall electrostatic repulsion.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: hf + hf = E?
« Reply #6 on: 23/06/2016 19:43:33 »
Quote from: TheBox
I think that the 0 point would gain +q
What do you mean by "q"?

In physics, "q" is often used to denote electrical charge.

But the law of conservation of charge says that no matter how many uncharged photons you cram together, the result will also be uncharged. That is why pair production produces equal quantities of + & - charges (eg positron+electron).

Quote
and then expand by its own +q versus +q process.
The negative charges balance the positive charges, so there is no overall electrostatic repulsion.

Yes you read q correctly I meant electric charge.

Negative charges balance the positive charges!, ok I can relate to an equilibrium.

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: hf + hf = E?
« Reply #6 on: 23/06/2016 19:43:33 »