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Author Topic: What are the scientific and engineering implications of BREXIT?  (Read 3383 times)

Offline acsinuk

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I trust that medical staff,engineers and NHS workers realise that this referendum was not anti European but rather a protest vote about over regulation and lack of jobs both of which affect our economy adversely.

To overcome the first we need to simplify to one page maximum all regulations/directives and add government or EU recommendation on how the regulation could be achieved but these are not mandatory. The office of deputy prime minister did an excellent job in starting this off.

To provide more jobs now that we are so computer efficient means that we need to reduce the working week to just three and a half days per week and encourage a shift work system as NHS, supermarkets, large stores, service industries and spares already do. 6 to 2, and 2 till 10.
« Last Edit: 25/06/2016 11:10:16 by chris »


 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: BRITEX!!!
« Reply #1 on: 24/06/2016 10:48:13 »
Voting "out" was a great personal sacrifice. Currently, I can hire top Rumanian consultants for less than the starting salary of a UK junior doctor, and Hungarian nurses (with real practical nursing skills!) are happy to undercut their UK graduate equivalents. But longterm, we need to find work for UK citizens or face a very unstable future.   
 

Offline acsinuk

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Re: BRITEX!!!
« Reply #2 on: 25/06/2016 10:46:46 »
Thanks Alan.  But if we reduce the working week that will create fuller employment.  I believe we all have the right to work and achieve dignity.  There is nothing more depressing than filling in countless CVs whilst wasting time on the dole.
We are Europeans and we should lead Europe into shorter working hours unless we can float our island away somehow?
 

Offline chris

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Shorter working hours? And earn how much exactly?
 

Online evan_au

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Quote from: acsinuk
if we reduce the working week that will create fuller employment
So if someone outside the UK had a choice of a top Rumanian consultant working 50 hours per week, and a British consultant who was only prepared to work 30 hours a week (and charge more), which one is going to be unemployed?

A lot of work these days can be done remotely, on contract. For jobs like this, which person will a UK employer choose?
 

Offline alancalverd

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"We" (I presume you mean the British) are definitely not Europeans. These islands have been at war with various bits of mainland Europe for about 4000 years and "native" Brits are of Celtic, Norse, and latterly of African and Asian descent, along with bits of Saxon and Norman invaders, plus the descendants of Czech and Polish warriors and Italian prisoners of WWII, and waves of Jewish refugees. The current UK population is a slowly-homogenising mixture of pretty much everything except white Europeans.

Implementing a points-based immigration policy, with an inbuilt Commonwealth preference, will fill gaps without creating unemployment or depressing wages to East European levels. 

Once we have control of our borders, we can consider how to limit the population, for the greater good of our descendants. Within 100 years these islands can be entirely selfsufficient with full and interesting employment for anyone who wants it.

We have always traded at a loss with mainland Europe, so doing less trade will simply mean less loss. Our net trade with the rest of the world  has always been positive. And if you have goods to sell to EU countries you don't need to negotiate separate agreements: it being a single market, if your goods meet the CE specification, they can be sold anywhere within the EU at the same rate of duty - by law! That's how China, Japan, India and the USA have destroyed most European manufacturing industry, not by manufacturing in the EU, but by making and selling to a single specification.

Some very good x-ray equipment is manufactured in Spain, but I've never bought it from the factory. I can buy the same machines for about half the price from an American agent, because as the EU is a protected market, the European price is maintained by the corrupt Union, but in North America you have to compete, and the sales volume is greater, so the wholesale price is lower.

A consistent misinterpretation of EU law has prevented my clients from selling safe medical equipment to the NHS. Hopefully we can save a few lives in future by restoring the UK standard of electrical safety.

I've just been prevented from fitting an American compass to my American-designed aeroplane because, although approved for the last 20 years by the manufacturers and the FAA, it hasn't been approved by the European Aviation "Safety" Agency for fitting to a British-registered plane. Why did I want to do it? Because when the chips are down and everything else has stopped working in thick fog, the American ("vertical card") compass will tell you where you are heading whilst the EASA-approved heap of junk is spinning uselessly backwards.

My safety is a minor matter compared with other stupidities: (1) EASA decreed that we need new radios and navaids in the rental fleet, and offered a cash grant to get them fitted, if we submitted 4 years' audited accounts. The application was turned down because the accounts were in Sterling, not Euros. You can't audit a UK limited company in anything but Sterling. (2) EASA decreed that a flying school must have at least two designated classrooms, so we had to buy a new hut to stay in business - but we only have one instructor, so the second classroom is unused (EASA won't let us use it for an office, which we actually need).

And finally (for the time being), where on earth did the Labour Party get the idea that workers' rights are a gift from the EU? When I was a lad, it was the job of the Labour Party to promote and defend those rights, hence the Factories Acts, the Health & Safety at Work Acts, the National Health Service, employment tribunals, state pensions....all of which predated the EU by at least 40 years.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Apropos the original question, "very few".

If you want to make a product to sell in the USA, it must conform to US standards, but then you can sell it in any state. In most cases the same standard applies to Canada and Mexico, and even Japan. The EU is exactly the same: goods that meet EU standards can be traded anywhere in the Union, and for convenience most non-EU countries in Europe adopt the same standard. So no change there, except that you will now be able to sell non-EU-standard goods in the UK. This may allow more rapid development of new products for the home market and encourage the development of products to North American standards. Interestingly, in the case of medical devices, the EU requirement is for manufacturing consistency and design traceability, whereas the FDA requirement is that the damn thing actually works.

Collaborative research in industry happens anyway. I've been working with a Russian company assembling American-designed-Chinese-manufactured subsytems into a Russian rig with British and German components. We sell the kit worldwide but the only applicable published standard is American. I'm also evaluating and developing American medical products for worldwide sale: the science happens wherever we can find suitable talent, and the EU certification is just an expensive  paper exercise once we have met the FDA proof of effectiveness.

Good collaborative academic research tends to be pan-European, not EU-based. The EU has very prescriptive rules about funding, and politically-motivated targets, so although I've supported a few applications for such funding it's usually quicker and better to go directly to charities, private philanthropic funds, national or local government schemes, or the potential beneficiaries, for small grants.

Personal mobility has never been a signifcant problem. If you need a good bloke for a specific project, you can get a temporary visa, or shuffle through the pack of intellectual refugees who are the first to seek asylum whenever trouble brews in benighted countries. At the top level, most consultants capable of earning a living from their talent can get a self-employed business visa to travel anywhere, but nowdays most consultancy is by email anyway!
 

Offline kasparovitch

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About BREXIT, the exit of a founding member, even if this is not a direct answer to the question placed here, I'd like to say this:

1. That's not the end of the UK or the EU. It's perhaps the beginning of the end, as Churchill would say.

2. Scotland in the short term and perhaps Northern Ireland later will follow next.

3. More referenda will take place in the EU, maybe France and the Netherlands next.

4. The EU, however imperfect it is, was the greatest tool ever constructed in the sake of peace in Europe, the most belligerent continent of all times.

5. The future divisions of the UK and the EU will kill that tool that guaranteed a period of peace lasting more than 70 years, never seen before in History.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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If France and the Netherlands see how expensive it is, they might decide not to bother.
 

Offline kasparovitch

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If France and the Netherlands see how expensive it is, they might decide not to bother.

It was expensive in the UK too and was expensive before when France made a referendum that killed the future constitution of the EU.
 

Offline alancalverd

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4. The EU, however imperfect it is, was the greatest tool ever constructed in the sake of peace in Europe, the most belligerent continent of all times.

5. The future divisions of the UK and the EU will kill that tool that guaranteed a period of peace lasting more than 70 years, never seen before in History.


The facts speak otherwise.

For the greater part of that period, Germany was divided under military occupation, having been bankrupted by one war and thoroughly demolished by a second. Nothing to do with EU diktats on the shape of bananas, but quite a lot to do with NATO and the Red Army, and it kept the peace rather well.  Except of course in the Balkans (1991 - 2001).  Spain remained free of civil war from 1936 under a fascist dictatorship until 1975 and did not join the EU until 1986.   

Iceland effectively defended its fishing grounds (a small war, but a violent one) and continues to have a viable primary industry. The UK joined the EU and lost everything. 

And don't forget that the UK was not a "founding member". We stupidly joined the EEC several years after having been refused entry, then the EEC reinvented itself as the EU and Her Majesty' Electorate was persuaded to pay for an even more pointless and corrupt layer of bureaucracy, and then the EU expanded without consulting the British public.

When smaller countries were given referenda on EU matteers, they were instructed to vote again until they came up with the right answer. At last, a major economic power (or so we like to kid ourselves) has chosen to hold two fingers up to sleaze, incompetence, and the hegemony of Big Business.

Ut sequiuntur alies
« Last Edit: 25/06/2016 15:25:37 by alancalverd »
 

Offline kasparovitch

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A Petition demanding a second referendum on the grounds of too little a margin is running now and collected 1.440.614 signatures in a single day.

Maybe this is just the first referendum in a row, until there are no grounds for a massive petition any more.

I think the UK is playing bungee jumping.

 

Offline quasimodo

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I understand little of the situation, to be honest I didn't even vote. But are we not up for 2 years of trade re-negotiation during which the business implications following the BREXIT vote are to be decided, and therefore now that it is essentially an independantly functioning democracy is it not within the persuasive power of the individuals concerned to have an impact on deciding and developing said implications.
Also are there not strong possibilities of improved connections with other countries outside the EU now that could function to the position that the soon to be replaced EU measures filled.
But like I said, I understand little of the situation.
A Petition demanding a second referendum on the grounds of too little a margin is running now and collected 1.440.614 signatures in a single day
This only means that it will be debated by the parliament, which now lacks some influential members of the remain campaign I believe.
« Last Edit: 25/06/2016 16:28:38 by quasimodo »
 

Offline jeffreyH

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I do not want the unelected in Brussels telling everyone what they must do. They are shocked not because we left but because our fees will dry up. All the panic is among the controlling interests in Europe who can't fathom the audacity of the peasants to defy them. Nothing at all has changed for Joe Public except the increased level of scaremongering that will now be aimed at him.
 

Offline alancalverd

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A Petition demanding a second referendum on the grounds of too little a margin is running now and collected 1.440.614 signatures in a single day.

To be followed by another petition demanding that referenda be held until we come up with the right answer, a sufficient majority, and a minimum turnout.

What these morons don't understand is that the "out" vote is  solid, based on fact, and enthusiastic. Why else did Dodgy Dave insist on extending the registration period for 48 hours after his TV performance, in the hope of scaring the ignorant young into supporting him? 75% turnout is unheard of in UK politics, and the lower it gets, the bigger the "out" majority is likely to be.
 

Offline alancalverd

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But are we not up for 2 years of trade re-negotiation during which the business implications following the BREXIT vote are to be decided
Renault, BMW and VW will not wait for 2 years before lowering the UK price of their vehicles to meet the challenge of Ford and GM. The EU can decide tomorrow what import tax to apply to British goods, but as we don't supply much to the EU, HM Government can simply reflect that tax on goods imported from the EU and thereby inflict grievous harm on German manufacturing and French farming.

The alternative to negotiation is to do nothing and leave all the duties as they are. That's best for Big Business and therefore what will happen (who do you think runs the EU?)

What really matters is whether the UK reasserts its territorial waters and determines its own farming subsidies.

The next French revolution will occur when the EU privatises their health service. Riots? You ain't seen nuthin' yet. Tumbrils and guillotines....
« Last Edit: 25/06/2016 17:11:52 by alancalverd »
 

Offline chris

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Has anyone watched "Brexit The Movie" - https://www.brexitthemovie.com/

I'd be interested in hearing your reactions.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Nothing hurts quite as much as the truth!
 

Offline Colin2B

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A Petition demanding a second referendum on the grounds of too little a margin is running now and collected 1.440.614 signatures in a single day.

Maybe this is just the first referendum in a row, until there are no grounds for a massive petition any more.

I think the UK is playing bungee jumping.
This would only be implemented if a minimum turnout or minimum majority had been a precondition of the referendum. It is not possible to change the rules retrospectively so I can't see there being another referendum.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Late night, and a moment to reflect on the EU's supposed protection of the safety of its citizens.

For the last hour I've been reviewing a research ethics application to test a new medical device for "CE certification", i.e. to allow it to be placed on the market in the EU. The device is an alternative to the present standard technique for treating a particular pathology.

Why is the US manufacturer seeking CE approval for a device that does not yet have FDA approval? Well, as I mentioned before, the FDA requires evidence of efficacy, but a bit more besides. You can market a copy device or a minor improvement that solves a known problem on an existing device, without too much formality, but in the case of an alternative, you have to prove it works better (at least in particular cases) than the current standard, before you can get an FDA licence.

Not so in the EU. You need to prove that the new widget works  (not an EU innovation, by the way - the UK Sale of Goods Act predated the Medical Devices Directive by several decades and requires "fitness for purpose") but even if it is only half as effective as the old one, you can put it on the market. And if it is half the price of the standard device (usually the deciding factor in a cash-strapped NHS), who cares? Only the patient's grieving relatives.

So if you have a half-baked idea for a lifecritical gadget, sell it in the EU first, make a small fortune, and see if it cures more than it kills. If it doesn't, well at least you have made a profit, and if it does, you now have the evidence to present to the FDA, without putting any American citizens at risk.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: BRITEX!!!
« Reply #20 on: 26/06/2016 00:46:53 »
Voting "out" was a great personal sacrifice. Currently, I can hire top Rumanian consultants for less than the starting salary of a UK junior doctor, and Hungarian nurses (with real practical nursing skills!) are happy to undercut their UK graduate equivalents. But longterm, we need to find work for UK citizens or face a very unstable future.
I concur with your view alan, and we here in America are facing similar difficulties. While we are not part of the EU, God forbid, we also face the social trend toward Globalism. If the Globalists get their way, all national sovereignty will evaporate in wake of their greed for power and control. Along with our national sovereignty, individual rights along with the free press and many other liberties we hold dear will vanish. Long live Britain and I wish the same for the USA.
 

Offline quasimodo

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Renault, BMW and VW will not wait for 2 years before lowering the UK price of their vehicles to meet the challenge of Ford and GM. The EU can decide tomorrow what import tax to apply to British goods, but as we don't supply much to the EU, HM Government can simply reflect that tax on goods imported from the EU and thereby inflict grievous harm on German manufacturing and French farming.

I thought they were unable to change any status of the EU membership until after the 2 year period?
Does anyone know how will brexit affect the tier system of regulatiing exhaust gas emission for motors? As well as the other environmental laws, eg. is it now more or less likely that there will be fracking, or are these not affected?
 

Offline chris

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The present arrangements will remain in effect for at least a further two and a quarters years. This is because David Cameron has indicated that he'll leave office in 3 months' time and it will be the NEXT leader who will initiate the exit process (Article 50); once in train, this takes 2 years to complete, so it seems reasonable to suggest that we'll be going business as usual for the next 2 years. One concern is that this will trigger a further immigration rush (including by ISIS operatives who exploited the Syrian crisis to infiltrate mainland Europe and are currently waiting in Germany for their papers to be prepared so that as "EU Citizens" they may legitimately travel all over Europe - with the UK as a major target - to facilitate their hate mission). Anticipating this, I wonder if some sort of legislation will be forthcoming...
 

Offline alancalverd

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You are probably right, so change "can" to a hypothetical "could" - the result is the same, with a 2-year delay.

EU Directives have to be implemented in national law, and enforced nationally in the first instance, so any piece of EU regulation that we want to keep, can stay on the statute books. However when we leave the EU we could instead impose Californian regulations and local testing to Cal standards instead of having to accept (by law!) any crap that the lying Germans foist upon us.

Fracking is inevitable, in or out, like it or not, because the Thatcher government rendered 200-years-worth of British coal completely unrecoverable and sold North Sea licenses to foreigners. I've just returned from Norway where the state owns about 40% of the oil business: Statoil pump prices are a bit lower than UK prices, and the profit is invested in public services rather than being exported to tax havens. Such a level of state ownership would not be permitted under EU regulations. 

The first Clean Air Act in Europe was enacted in the UK in 1956, long before the EU was born.
 

Offline alancalverd

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One concern is that this will trigger a further immigration rush (including by ISIS operatives who exploited the Syrian crisis to infiltrate mainland Europe
The French have a way of dealing with this. Try selling a competitive product in France." Oui, certainement, vous avez le droit but our national implementation of the Directives require that the product be "homologue" (that's an e-acute) by scrutiny of an official translation of the paperwork and repeat testing of any parts that our national laboratory considers critique." Usually takes 1 to 3 years.

So we don't close the border (at least we still have one) but just take a very long look at any recently-issued EU passports. "Polish carpenter, eh? Please speak to my Polish colleague - he is an expert on regional accents and if you are under 70 years old he should be able to trace your birth certificate within 5 days. Meanwhile please return to Frankfurt."
 

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