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Author Topic: Is there a case for positive euthanasia for end stage Alzheimer sufferers?  (Read 5355 times)

Offline Alan McDougall

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In the entire 40 plus years of my career involving frequent contact with Alzheimer's patients I have never seen even one of them "suffer".

They may be frustrated that they can't go walkies and get into the traffic. That, however, does not begin to approach the condition of "suffering" in any rational mind.

If anybody is "suffering" it is the family members.  That is life in the big city. Life is a [uh-oh!] and then you die. You have to learn to deal with that without killing other people because looking at them makes you feel sad.

If a person who is sane ( and not being coerced by "well-meaning" relatives to save money on treatment) chooses to suicide that is one thing.

Killing somebody who is not asking for it because looking at them makes you feel down in the dumps is quite another.

They send people to prison for that depravity.

This is an extremely unfortunate discussion. Someone reading it may come to a wrong conclusion about a family member's "suffering" and commit murder in the mistaken belief that they are being ethical.

I wouldn't want that on <<my>> conscience. Would you?


What you say makes me doubt what you say simply because people with Alzheimer's do suffer


https://www.quora.com/Are-people-suffering-from-Alzheimers-really-suffering-or-are-they-just-as-happy-as-anyone-else

Also quoted from various internet searched I did but due too the many links so I will just put the comments in quote form

…...

"If you divide the disease process of Alzheimer's and related dementia s into thirds- early, middle and late stages-  what I have observed in over fifteen years of working with such folks is that the first stage- early dementia- is difficult for the person;  one of the answers here describes it as hell, and that's probably close.  There is something wrong, you know there is something wrong, you may even guess or be told what it is, over and over, but you cannot stop it, fix it or mitigate it.   There is often denial among flashes of acceptance, "Oh, I forget things".  This stage is hardest on the victim."

…...
   
"Edited on Sun Jun-06-04 07:56 PM by Argumentus
They know THE ENTIRE TIME that something is wrong with them, but they've lost the mental faculty to know exactly what or even to express themselves. In the latter days they scream because they cannot remember how to speak, or wipe their ass, or chew their own food. They do not know when a wife is speaking to soothe them (who the f___ is this lady touching me?) or know when their own child is speaking to them (why the f____ are these kids touching me?)."

"Mere words cannot express the horror I have seen in a grown man's eyes."
…...

"It is, without doubt, the most horrible way a person can die."work with Alzheimer's patients and it's the cruelest disease I have ever witnessed.”

…...

“In the beginning of the disease, they know what's going on and what's happening to them. "They are terrified." To watch a person slip into oblivion is just tragic.
In the end they lose their ability to walk, talk, and eat. They die. It's a slow death.”

“How did we feel?” they ask. “We remember the feeling of our collar tightening, voice faltering, palms sweating, and face blushing.” Then they call to our attention that “The person with Alzheimer’s disease is in a giant classroom every day, one in which he or she never has the exact answer.”

…...

“A lot of what we think about death and dying is based on the cancer model," says Dr. Stephen Post, professor in the department of bio-ethics at Case Western University School of Medicine. "Alzheimer's is a complicated and difficult disease." Late-stage AD is characterized by the inability to communicate by speech or recognize family members, the inability to move about without assistance, incontinence, loss of appetite, and loss of the ability to swallow, with death usually resulting from aspiration pneumonia, infection, or coronary arrest. On the average, the advanced stage of AD lasts 1.5 to 2 years, according to Dr. Post, though 20-30% of patients will "linger" 4, 5, 6, or even as long as 10 years, he says.”
…...

“Despite our best research efforts, Alzheimer's disease remains incurable. Researchers are using sophisticated technologies to pinpoint how AD progressively steals memories and destroys personality; and yet, AD remains irreversible. Although one does not die of Alzheimer's disease, during the course of the disease, the body's defense mechanisms ultimately weaken, increasing susceptibility to catastrophic infection and other causes of death related to frailty. At some point after the mind has been lost to this devastating disease, the body will be lost as well”.
artificial Feeding and Hydration

…...

https://www.quora.com/Are-people-suffering-from-Alzheimers-really-suffering-or-are-they-just-as-happy-as-anyone-else

…...

“I was sitting with Grandma B. when she suddenly grabbed my arm in total, abject terror and said in a voice that just chilled me, "I don't know who any of these people are." The look on her face could have broken any heart”.

…...

“As far as I can know from the outside, my mother seemed to be in great pain most of times... She looked like she was conscious enough to know she was off kilter and not conscious enough to stop it... Fits my definition of hell”...

…...

“First, to answer your question: people with Alz have good times, but the overwhelming majority of the time they are confused, upset and angry. So,  Alz patients are not "just as happy as anyone else”

…...

“As noted, it depends.  My MNL was quite happy following the little animals and talking to childhood friends for several years.  Later, her thoughts turned dark and frightening.  It was a blessing for her when she died”.

“After caring for my mother in her last month and watching the fear and uncertainty on her face, I cannot imagine anyone thinking that these poor souls could be happy.”

…...

How does all of this feel? Terrifying! I fear that I  will lose my livelihood given that my career is one of being able to recall facts and figures and information. I fear losing memories of my life and the details of the years I have had with my son. Losing that which IS my life. To become utterly and hopelessly dependent on others when I have been the strong one, the one in charge for all these years.

“I promise you, I will not suffer this disease?”.

…...

“A close relative has this disease. Now while I can't speak for her personally, I can tell you my opinion based on experience seeing what she goes through. Confusion, frustration, feeling scared and lost... I can't imagine categorizing those things into "happiness"... although some people do feel these things who DON'T have Alzheimer's”.
Written Apr 8, 2015
   
…...
“This is the final stage of the disease when individuals lose the ability to respond to their environment, the ability to speak, and, ultimately, the ability to control movement.”


“Individuals lose the ability to walk without assistance, then the ability to sit without support, the ability to smile, and the ability to hold their head up. Reflexes become abnormal and muscles grow rigid. Swallowing is impaired.”

…...

“At the end of Alzheimer's the brain forgets how to make the body function. At first the voluntary functions go, and eventually the body "forgets" how to make the lungs or heart work.”

…...
   
“It doesn't happen overnight, and the process of slipping into the memory loss can be extremely depressing and demoralizing. Plus, most cases are not "TV happy" cases of "absent mindedness", but rather result in acute paranoia, or violent rage, or severe depression. In many cases, the body outlives the brain, so the patient must be restrained to prevent violence against family and caretakers”.

…...

“My dad's father had it, and he was something of a mix, but it was painful to see this brilliant man reduced to a shell of himself. He lasted a couple years with full-on Alzheimer's, but some (like Reagan) live much longer in a hellish limbo. My dad has said if he starts showing signs, to just leave a gun out where he can find it -- he'll know what to do.”
I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

They exist in a Kafkaesque nightmare.

“ Then as it gets worse there's confusion and fear much of the time. Every situation is unfamiliar and only the people that you're with literally all the time are familiar at all. By the end my uncle went into panic every time my aunt left the room. He didn't recognize his own kids by sight but was so dismayed when he was told who they were. He lost control of his bodily functions because he couldn't remember what you're supposed to do about those things. He had to ask what to do with dinner when it was served to him. He didn't remember how to eat or that he was supposed to eat, but through all that he was sentient. He was not a vegetable. He simply had lost every cognitive ability that's required to function. He knew it, too. He was deeply depressed through most of it.”

…...

“Some have horrible hallucinations, terrible fear, though a few lucky ones are happily demented. My mother died a year ago from it (and her mother and my FIL shortly before) and she was completely frozen and unable to move the last year. I am sure every time we moved her it probably hurt a great deal. Finally became unable to swallow and that is when she died. They suffer a lot of falls and when they are in pain they are unable to tell you if they are pretty far along. I would notice my mother's jaw swelling and know a tooth had abscessed or notice inflammation but she could not tell me or point it out. It's a hell of a way to go.”

I do not want to be kept alive as a dependent vegetable

Alan



 

Offline Alan McDougall

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I just want to clear up a point of confusion,   the only acceptable way this positive act of final kindness to end the suffering of an Alzheimer victim, is if the ill person has made it very clear and specific, by asking to be euthanized, while they still have most of their mental faculties, and still able to make a rational decision, to those who love them to do this final act of compassion. Maybe a "Living Will"?

You could even say it would be suicide by proxy!

Not the random murder of with severely disabled people like the Nazi's,   and the comparison  to this evil by some members to what I am suggesting, is so far off the reality of what I really meant,  that it makes me ill on the inside.
 

Offline eeyore

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A " living will" is not and should never be considered sufficient grounds for euthanasia of patients who are now non compos mentis. Full stop.

If a patient has become too obtunded to eat or drink ( or even feel hunger or thirst) and medical intervention cannot restore their ability to do so, it is often the case that a feeding tube is discontinued and death proceeds naturally.

This is a very different matter than shooting them up with a lethal dose of seconal before they have reached that point in their lives. Life is too precious for that kind of "mercy".

That is the way hospice issues are handled in the real world.

All of this nonsense about "positive euthanasia" is uninformed twaddle by people who have not yet come to terms with end of life issues.

People who have spent their lives by distancing themselves as far as possible from the dying have not had time to think this out sufficiently.

They should not get a vote.

« Last Edit: 05/07/2016 16:44:41 by eeyore »
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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A " living will" is not and should never be considered sufficient grounds for euthanasia of patients who are now non compos mentis. Full stop.

If a patient has become too obtunded to eat or drink ( or even feel hunger or thirst) and medical intervention cannot restore their ability to do so, it is often the case that a feeding tube is discontinued and death proceeds naturally.

This is a very different matter than shooting them up with a lethal dose of seconal before they have reached that point in their lives. Life is too precious for that kind of "mercy".

That is the way hospice issues are handled in the real world.

All of this nonsense about "positive euthanasia" is uninformed twaddle by people who have not yet come to terms with end of life issues.

People who have spent their lives by distancing themselves as far as possible from the dying have not had time to think this out sufficiently.

They should not get a vote.

You obviously did not read the question posed in this thread correctly "I was not distancing myself from the reality of death"        "I was/am addressing it head on"

Also your twisted logic in that it is OK to discontinue feeding them and maybe allowing them to die an awful slow death by starvation and thirst beats me?

"And yes life is precious" but an end stage victim is not living "but existing", which is a huge difference and I personally do not want your type of "Precious Life"?

While you insist in prolonging the life of someone who like me has made it very clear that I do not want "to exist" in this type of vegetative state even though  made it very clear that I would want someone to put me out of my misery,   "as I know you have most likely, done by putting down a beloved pet of yours, in an act of kindness to prevent it from further suffering".

But insist that a human does not have the same right as your pet animal.In which the disease has reduced the person down to the level of a non-thinking entity, that has become not much more than a suffering shell of a nonthinking  animal themselves.
 

Offline eeyore

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It would indeed be silly of me to argue with someone suffering from the delusion that he can usurp God's prerogative and take upon himself the decision of when somebody else should die. I am continuing this thread to highlight the nature of this pernicious and depraved argument.

Let us hope that this deranged idea is not wide-spread in the post modern brave new television world which has spawned this unfortunate twaddle. 

Being new, this post-modern nonsense ignores the fact that people have been dying all by themselves ( thank you very much ) without the "merciful" assistance of this kind for (What's today?) 100,000 years. That is God's own business. Only a benighted post modern heathen would dare to deny that it is not.

Those others of us who still fear the wrath of God may recall that he has said...."Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

If someone wants to go about preaching their own gospel about their right to interfere with God's business that is their own affair and between them and God. Bad cess to it.

I prefer this variation of Pascal's wager --Whether or not God exists, life is better if you act like he does.

God is <<not>> mocked. For myself, as that old hymn goes, I will cling to the old rugged cross.

Now doubtless Mr. McDougal will pop in again to deliver another 500 words of the gospel according to McDougal. I will ask you this. if you find yourself on the judgement day explaining how you helped bump off a dozen or so senile and helpless old women, will your defense be, "McDougal said it was OK"?



 

Offline Alan McDougall

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It would indeed be silly of me to argue with someone suffering from the delusion that he can usurp God's prerogative and take upon himself the decision of when somebody else should die. I am continuing this thread to highlight the nature of this pernicious and depraved argument.

Let us hope that this deranged idea is not wide-spread in the post modern brave new television world which has spawned this unfortunate twaddle. 

Being new, this post-modern nonsense ignores the fact that people have been dying all by themselves ( thank you very much ) without the "merciful" assistance of this kind for (What's today?) 100,000 years. That is God's own business. Only a benighted post modern heathen would dare to deny that it is not.

Those others of us who still fear the wrath of God may recall that he has said...."Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

If someone wants to go about preaching their own gospel about their right to interfere with God's business that is their own affair and between them and God. Bad cess to it.

I prefer this variation of Pascal's wager --Whether or not God exists, life is better if you act like he does.

God is <<not>> mocked. For myself, as that old hymn goes, I will cling to the old rugged cross.

Now doubtless Mr. McDougal will pop in again to deliver another 500 words of the gospel according to McDougal. I will ask you this. if you find yourself on the judgement day explaining how you helped bump off a dozen or so senile and helpless old women, will your defense be, "McDougal said it was OK"?

Not so and you brought religion into the topic, just to clarify again this is what "I would want to happen to me" I do not speak for the rest of humanity Period!

And I am finished posting in this thread I have made my point and accept the critique,  but it is not a depraved idea at all, but based on human mercy towards another.

Finally it is OK for God to kill " I dare you to read Numbers 31" the whole Chapter and tell me that is a merciful God that holds all life precious?

Alan
« Last Edit: 06/07/2016 04:23:25 by Alan McDougall »
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs our opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

Sometimes the Truth is surrounded by a circumference of lies and deception, but even then the Truth remains the Truth unchanged by anything.

Jesus stood before Pontius Pilot who asked him "What is Truth' Not knowing the very essence of Truth Stood in front of him.

Pilot washed his hands and gave up Jesus to the mob, now he has to wash his hands forever in hell!

Alan
 

Offline eeyore

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Mr. McDougal enjoys a much more sanquine view of human nature than those of us who have observed the popularity of Donald Trump or Nigel Farage.

Mercy killing may be appropriate under certain strict ethical guidelines on a case by case basis decided by objective committees free of financial considerations...and always with informed consent by mentally competent patients.

Anything less than that criterion is an invitation to <<another>> general slaughter of the innocents.
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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It would indeed be silly of me to argue with someone suffering from the delusion that he can usurp God's prerogative and take upon himself the decision of when somebody else should die. I am continuing this thread to highlight the nature of this pernicious and depraved argument.

Let us hope that this deranged idea is not wide-spread in the post modern brave new television world which has spawned this unfortunate twaddle. 

Being new, this post-modern nonsense ignores the fact that people have been dying all by themselves ( thank you very much ) without the "merciful" assistance of this kind for (What's today?) 100,000 years. That is God's own business. Only a benighted post modern heathen would dare to deny that it is not.

Those others of us who still fear the wrath of God may recall that he has said...."Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

If someone wants to go about preaching their own gospel about their right to interfere with God's business that is their own affair and between them and God. Bad cess to it.

I prefer this variation of Pascal's wager --Whether or not God exists, life is better if you act like he does.

God is <<not>> mocked. For myself, as that old hymn goes, I will cling to the old rugged cross.

Now doubtless Mr. McDougal will pop in again to deliver another 500 words of the gospel according to McDougal. I will ask you this. if you find yourself on the judgement day explaining how you helped bump off a dozen or so senile and helpless old women, will your defense be, "McDougal said it was OK"?

God shmod. What would your answer be in reality?  If you took god out of the equation, since it doesn't exist and will therefore be unable to ever judge you for your decisions, what would your answer be then?  Are you able to think of the OP's question in objective terms and answer it in such a capacity?  I'd be interested in seeing your opinion under those terms, if you didn't have to fear anyone's wrath lol.

Quote
Only a benighted post modern heathen would dare to deny that it is not.
---proud to be a heathen and member of the advanced further evolved intellect of tomorrow.

« Last Edit: 06/07/2016 16:54:56 by IAMREALITY »
 

Offline eeyore

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Zinoviev himself couldn't have put the case for atheism better....right up to the time he was executed as a left deviationist along with Kamenev. Maybe you have heard of that? (Maybe not)

But you post modern television culture wallahs are all better than that..  Aren't you, young feller me lad?

Take care that you don't end up "sneezing into the basket" for being an ill-feckit "social parasite". Or perhaps they'll just pack you off to some  GULAG on Baffin Island.

Here's a picture from a recent time when people bought your "wisdom"..
« Last Edit: 06/07/2016 18:01:15 by eeyore »
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Zinoviev himself couldn't have put the case for atheism better....right up to the time he was executed as a left deviationist along with Kamenev. Maybe you have heard of that? (Maybe not)

But you post modern television culture wallahs are all better than that..  Aren't you, young feller me lad?

Take care that you don't end up "sneezing into the basket" for being an ill-feckit "social parasite". Or perhaps they'll just pack you off to some  GULAG on Baffin Island.

Here's a picture from a recent time when people bought your "wisdom"..

The case for atheism is merely intellect and mental strength.  The intellect to realize how nonsensical religion on its face is, how silly, if you actually zoomed back from the earth, the thought of jesus ascending to 'heaven' was, when he actually would've been flying sideways, how also if you zoom wayyyy out from the earth, and keep going, how silly it is to imagine that this blue dot by this dot of a star, in this galaxy that also becomes a dot, that then is just but an insignificant nothing in a universe of hundreds of billions of them, that this dot has some entity around it listening to all its inhabitant's prayers and guiding them and judging them after they die blah blah blah.  And mentally strong enough to be able to handle the very straightforward and simple concept that this life is all we have and that we are ultimately completely on our own, that we are strong enough to not need that magical man in the sky, that best friend who is always there listening, that entity there to give us warm fuzzy feelings of unconditional love.  Mentally strong enough to not need some created by man entity to be the source of that strength.  Strong enough to accept that the baby died in the fiery wreck not cause it was the magical man's will, but because simply it was in a car that slammed head on into a truck, and crap happens, and circumstance happens, and it is what it is.  We're intelligent enough to believe in science, reality and fact and strong enough to handle what comes our way without needing the crutch of religion.  And we're decent enough to abide by almost the same moral code not because we fear the magical man in the sky nor fear being judged by it, but instead because we simply are intelligent to know what's right all on our own.  And we're decent enough to not harshly judge entire sections of people because some human decided to write in a book that such people were to be condemned.  Instead our moral code is stronger, more superior, and more decent.  As we treat all humans with the same kindness and care they deserve.  We don't need to be told who is worthy and who is not.  We're intelligent and decent enough to know that all humans no matter what deserve that respect.
 
Atheism is a sign of a more evolved and advanced intellect, and it is also the way of the future.  It is taking hold more and more but will still be more than likely a few centuries or more before enough evolution has taken place for the intellect to take hold across a greater spectrum and thereby eradicate the biggest stain on humanity, which is the concept of religion, of this magic man in the sky, of this intellectual crutch.

Long live science, fact and reality! 
« Last Edit: 06/07/2016 18:19:25 by IAMREALITY »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Life is not precious. Ask Tony B Liar, or any other politician. Or any priest who ever sanctioned a crusade or pogrom, or poured holy water on a tank. Or any soldier, or weapon designer. Or anyone who has ever invoked the blessing of the Almighty, or considered that he was doing God's work, or stated that he was protecting the nation, by killing others. Other people's lives are disposable if they are politically inconvenient.

God certainly doesn't ascribe much value to the lives of those he kills with plagues and earthquakes, nor of the newborns with congenital syphilis, nor of the stillborn. So let's get away from such fairytale drivel and consider the wishes and suffering of those whom we choose to care about, including ourselves.

When life becomes intolerable, you can kill yourself. Why should this most basic human right be denied to those who are not physically capable of doing it? It is, after all, illegal to discriminate against physical incapacity in work, leisure, commerce, sex, free speech....so why not in the one decision and overwhelmingly desirable activity that affects nobody else? As I said earlier, enlightened legislatures don't have a problem with assisted suicide, and anyone who votes against it should be subjected to endless torture in order to prove his point, just as every engineer makes the first test flight or drive across the new bridge.

The problem only arises where we are asked to assess the pain and suffering of someone who can't express it for himself. My feeling on this subject is that, once we learn to ignore the fairytale drivel and superstition of religious parasites, we can begin to set down objective criteria for human euthanasia just as we do routinely for other species.
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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The problem only arises where we are asked to assess the pain and suffering of someone who can't express it for himself. My feeling on this subject is that, once we learn to ignore the fairytale drivel and superstition of religious parasites, we can begin to set down objective criteria for human euthanasia just as we do routinely for other species.

Hear hear to that! Great points throughout your entire post and very, very well thought out.  I appreciated all of it! But this part especially is just so completely spot on, and really just totally hits the nail on the head in relation to the debate.  We have much intellect that can be found within the members of our species. It shouldn't be that hard for those minds to come up with rational and objective criteria for such situations. Fully agreed.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Life is not precious. Ask Tony B Liar, or any other politician. Or any priest who ever sanctioned a crusade or pogrom, or poured holy water on a tank. Or any soldier, or weapon designer. Or anyone who has ever invoked the blessing of the Almighty, or considered that he was doing God's work, or stated that he was protecting the nation, by killing others. Other people's lives are disposable if they are politically inconvenient.

God certainly doesn't ascribe much value to the lives of those he kills with plagues and earthquakes, nor of the newborns with congenital syphilis, nor of the stillborn. So let's get away from such fairytale drivel and consider the wishes and suffering of those whom we choose to care about, including ourselves.

When life becomes intolerable, you can kill yourself. Why should this most basic human right be denied to those who are not physically capable of doing it? It is, after all, illegal to discriminate against physical incapacity in work, leisure, commerce, sex, free speech....so why not in the one decision and overwhelmingly desirable activity that affects nobody else? As I said earlier, enlightened legislatures don't have a problem with assisted suicide, and anyone who votes against it should be subjected to endless torture in order to prove his point, just as every engineer makes the first test flight or drive across the new bridge.

The problem only arises where we are asked to assess the pain and suffering of someone who can't express it for himself. My feeling on this subject is that, once we learn to ignore the fairytale drivel and superstition of religious parasites, we can begin to set down objective criteria for human euthanasia just as we do routinely for other species.

Alan, at last, some who understands what I was trying to convey in that euthanasia for a person with end stage Alzheimers would put an end to their suffering and suffering of all those who have to watch their loved one decay to the level of a vegetable. It would be an act of kindness and mercy, not murder.

We do this for our beloved animals but not allow same kindness towards a human One member said life is precious and yes life is but an end stage Alzheimer victim does not have a precious life but the meaningless existence of the walking dead.

Their logic is that only God can decide when life should end and by this , meaning it is OK for God to kill the sufferer, but not those who have loved them in life as a final act of love and mercy.

Withhold this final act of mercy from a human being, but say it is an act of mercy and love when we very reluctantly have to put down a beloved pet, as I am sure all of us had to do with tears of sorrow flowing down our cheeks.

I asked them to read Numbers Chapter 31 and then rationalise their position, that at all cost we must keep a person alive regardless of their unspeakable suffering and come back and tell me if the God of that chapter of the bible is a God of love and mercy . "No response was received and that seemed to put an end to their religious rhetoric"

"If you take the position that God exists, then I am positive he would agree and would approve" ( but not the God of their perception).

Regards

Alan
 

Offline eeyore

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So much twaddle and so little knowledge to support such hubris.

Crux sacra sit mihi lux 
Non draco sit mihi dux
Vade retro satana 
Numquam suade mihi vana
Sunt mala quae libas 
Ipse venena bibas

If this is an example of what an Oxbridge education produces, give me a graduate of a  redbrick university every time.

If anyone here doubts that the devil exists then let them read the Chilcot report
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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So much twaddle and so little knowledge to support such hubris.

Crux sacra sit mihi lux 
Non draco sit mihi dux
Vade retro satana 
Numquam suade mihi vana
Sunt mala quae libas 
Ipse venena bibas

If this is an example of what an Oxbridge education produces, give me a graduate of a  redbrick university every time.

If anyone here doubts that the devil exists then let them read the Chilcot report

You brought religion into the topic so you must defend that position in a rational way!

I believe in the devil and it it is he that wants to prolong human suffering.

Come back to me after reading Numbers chapter 31 which I will include below for your convenience  "God" in this chapter really reminds me of Adolf Hitler, here he commands of the genocide of a whole race of people indeed a prime case of ethnic cleansing.

"'You know who 'God reminds me of in this chapter Adolf Hitler

I do not, however, believe the entity commanding Moes was Almighty God its attributes we those of Satan


Numbers 31

       (31:1-40)
(The Midianite massacre: Have you saved all the women alive?)

Under God's direction, Moses' army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males but take the women and children captive.

When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: "Have you saved all the women alive?

Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

So they went back and did as Moses (and presumably God) instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way they got 32,000 virgins -- Wow! (Even God gets some of the booty -- including the virgins.)

(Is it wrong to commit adultery?)

God's 26th Killing

(31:1) "The LORD spake unto Moses, saying,"

(31:2) "Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites."

(31:7) "As the Lord commanded Moses ... they slew all the males."
Did the Israelites kill every male in Midian?

(31:8) "And they slew the ... five kings of Midian ... Balaam also ... they slew with the sword."

(31:9) "The children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives and their little ones."

(31:10) "And they burnt all their cities."

31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

31:3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some  yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.

31:4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.

31:5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

31:6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.   

31:12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.   

31:13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.   

31:14 And Moses were wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.   (31:14) "Moses was wroth with the officers"

(31:15) "And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?"
Was Moses meek?

(What the Bible says rape and abortion)

(31:17) "Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him."

(31:18) "But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
What the Bible says about Pedophilia

31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

31:17 Now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him.

31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

31:19 And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.   

31:20 And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.   

31:21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;   

31:22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,   

31:23 Everything that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.   

31:24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.   

31:25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,   

31:26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:   

(31:26) "Take ... the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast,"

31:27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:   (31:27) "And divide the prey into two parts."

31:28 And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:   (31:28) "And levy a tribute unto the Lord ... both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep."

31:29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for a heave offering of the LORD.     (31:29) "Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for a heave offering of the LORD."
(Included in this "heave offering" were 16 of the 32 virgins in God's "booty".)

(Does God approve of human sacrifice?)

31:30 And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.

31:31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.   

31:32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,   (31:32) "And the booty,"

31:33 And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,   

31:34 And threescore and one thousand asses,   

31:35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known a man by lying with him.   (31:35) "Thirty and two thousand ... women that had not known a man by lying with him."

31:36 And a half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:   

31:37 And the LORD's tribute of the sheep were six hundred and threescore and fifteen.   

31:38 And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD's tribute was threescore and twelve.   

31:39 And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD's tribute was threescore and one.   

31:40 And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD's tribute was thirty and two persons.   

31:41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the LORD's heave offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as the LORD commanded Moses.   

31:42 And of the children of Israel's half, which Moses divided from the men that warred,   

31:43 (Now the half that pertained unto the congregation was three hundred thousand and thirty thousand and seven thousand and five hundred sheep,   

31:44 And thirty and six thousand beeves,   

31:45 And thirty thousand asses and five hundred,   

31:46 And sixteen thousand persons;)   

31:47 Even of the children of Israel's half, Moses took one portion of fifty, both of man and of beast, and gave them unto the Levites, which kept the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD; as the LORD commanded Moses.   

31:48 And the officers which were over thousands of the host, the captains of thousands, and captains of hundreds, came near unto Moses:   

31:49 And they said unto Moses, Thy servants have taken the sum of the men of war which are under our charge, and there lacketh not one man of us.   

31:50 We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.   

31:51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels.   

31:52 And all the gold of the offering that they offered up to the LORD, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels.   

31:53 (For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself.)   

31:54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tabernacle of the congregation, for a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD.
 

Offline eeyore

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Very well.

Mr T.S. Elliot summed up you and your pathetically manque friends here Mr. McDougal far beyond my ability. Here you go, Bub....

I
We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us—if at all—not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.

--There is more but it would be wasted on your sort. This will do to show what is underneath your braggadocio. Not for you, but for anyone else with the perspicacity to see the fear and despair that is pricking at you. so hard.

Yes, I was, fortunately raised in the Christian religion. I guess my favorite hymn is "There is a balm in Gilead".

Perhaps you might seek out the version by Mahalia Jackson. It might do you good --if you can get up the gumption to listen to it. It is on youtube. It starts out, "There is a balm in Gilead to make the wounded whole.."

It really is a powerful hymn. I just listened to it and it has removed most of the taint one feels in corresponding with you.
« Last Edit: 07/07/2016 11:43:04 by eeyore »
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Very well.

Mr T.S. Elliot summed up you and your pathetically manque friends here Mr. McDougal far beyond my ability. Here you go, Bub....

I
We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us—if at all—not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.

--There is more but it would be wasted on your sort. This will do to show what is underneath your braggadocio. Not for you, but for anyone else with the perspicacity to see the fear and despair that is pricking at you. so hard.

Yes, I was, fortunately raised in the Christian religion. I guess my favorite hymn is "There is a balm in Gilead".

Perhaps you might seek out the version by Mahalia Jackson. It might do you good --if you can get up the gumption to listen to it. It is on youtube. It starts out, "There is a balm in Gilead to make the wounded whole.."

It really is a powerful hymn. I just listened to it and it has removed most of the taint one feels in corresponding with you.

""Stop ducking and diving and avoiding my question"" please rationalist the appalling cruelty through the command of "God" albeit by proxy through his agent Moses, as reflected in the Book of Numbers chapter 31?

Which I conveniently put in the previous post of for you to defend your kind,  merciful God of love, whom you say informs you that all life is precious.

Just one example out of that appalling chapter, why then did this "God' command Moses to kill (murder??) all the Little Boys  , why??????????

(The ill person does not have to read this or respond in this topic, if it offends his sensitivities and this is not directed at him)
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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I would say that the question in the op has merit, but that the answer is much better derived by using medical fact and a meeting of the minds to use intellect, logic and reasoning to determine the guidelines.  And that such a process would have far more merit than using a fictional book written by a bunch of people thousands of years ago or using the fictional quotes that were never spoken in real life as a basis for argument one way or another as to how we should approach such a very real and sensitive topic. Using real life, and real circumstance, combined with the critical thinking skills, logic and reasoning of real people,would be far more relevant.  As a species, we are more than capable enough, more than intellectual enough, to derive the answers to this complex issue without the need to consult a work of fiction with made up quotes for assistance.  Using our own minds with the most current information and facts at our fingertips and our own problem solving ability and our own awareness of all the factors at stake is far more valuable than fictional advice written by some random dude thousands of years ago. 
 

Offline eeyore

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Upon reflection, I have begun to think that liberalizing the laws around euthanasia may be appropriate in England.

Based upon the evidence displayed in this thread, if the people of England choose to autodarwinate in this manner -- it may well be an act of God.

Weave a circle round them thrice and close your eyes in holy dread.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Upon reflection, I have begun to think that liberalizing the laws around euthanasia may be appropriate in England.

Based upon the evidence displayed in this thread, if the people of England choose to autodarwinate in this manner -- it may well be an act of God.

Weave a circle round them thrice and close your eyes in holy dread.

You brought religion and God into this thread but simply will not answer my question about Numbers 31 because you know it paints God as a merciless depraved psychopath of the likes of Hitler.

Simply answer this is the 'God" of Numbers 31 the one you serve, if so people should be very scared of you because you will have inherited his attributes in the process.
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Upon reflection, I have begun to think that liberalizing the laws around euthanasia may be appropriate in England.

Based upon the evidence displayed in this thread, if the people of England choose to autodarwinate in this manner -- it may well be an act of God.

Weave a circle round them thrice and close your eyes in holy dread.

You brought religion and God into this thread but simply will not answer my question about Numbers 31 because you know it paints God as a merciless depraved psychopath of the likes of Hitler.

Simply answer this is the 'God" of Numbers 31 the one you serve, if so people should be very scared of you because you will have inherited his attributes in the process.

With the caveat that it's all a work of fiction anyway thereby making it all irrelevant, just for sake of curiosity under what possible interpretation does that part of the Bible cease to be the word of God? Why? Merely because you don't like how it paints it?  Technically, if one chooses to believe in the fiction, that was the word of God same as any other part.  For someone who believes, I'd think they'd realize they don't have the ability to declare what God said and didn't, as if they're a prophet. But instead would have to adhere to the word of God in the Bible.  After all, that's how it works no? So technically, whether you like it or not, you serve that very same god you compare to Hitler.  The very same god.  No scholar argues that numbers 31 wasn't the same god, its commands. Its brutal, hitleresque commands. Yes, that's the same god you serve, no matter whether you try and deny his sometimes evil, selfish, arrogant, narcissistic, brutal, murderous ways.  Same god.  Numbers 31 was its commands. No scholar argues otherwise. 

But again, it's all made up anyway, so I guess you're free to also make up whatever other parts you want.  I was answering more under the terms of the theoretical circumstances of the book being real, as so many believe, and therefore the rules and reality that go along with that.  Do you not agree that pretty much all religious scholars would agree it was gods command?

« Last Edit: 07/07/2016 20:14:31 by IAMREALITY »
 

Offline eeyore

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Gentle Readers,

The people advocating "positive euthanasia" here apparently wouldn't know a line from Coleridge if it kicked them in the arse.

Are <<these>>  new men the people who are qualified to decide matters of life and death among these dark satanic mills?
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Invoking Blake to describe modern England? Try John Cooper Clarke.
 

Offline alancalverd

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euthanasia for a person with end stage Alzheimers would put an end to their suffering
Agreed, obviously.

Quote
and suffering of all those who have to watch their loved one decay
Absolutely excluded from my scheme of ethics.

I don't care how many tears are shed by the pre-grieving relatives, nor whether they are genuine tears of compassion or tears of frustration as granny hangs on and fritters her estate away on "care". The only person whose wishes and feelings matter, is the patient. The moment you admit a third party interest into the proceedings, you are opening the door to corruption.   
 

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