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Author Topic: Is there a case for positive euthanasia for end stage Alzheimer sufferers?  (Read 5407 times)

Offline alancalverd

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"There is a balm in Gilead to make the wounded whole.."

It really is a powerful hymn. I just listened to it and it has removed most of the taint one feels in corresponding with you.


But have you ever seen the balm working? This is, after all, a science forum.

And if the wound is caused by one of God's charming creations, how does it decide whether the host or the parasite should live?
 

Offline eeyore

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 I have, indeed, seen the "balm of Gilead" working. 

Mr. Calverd, you and your friends here have made it abundantly clear that you lack the rudimentary spiritual resources of the Neanderthals.

In consequence, the vicissitudes of life give you all an aggravated case of the chronic collywobbles. You all cover this up with a load of flippant and supercilious smartass as a compensation for your profound despair.

I have spent over 40 years in medicine. Nobody can do that without gaining knowledge of the divine mysteries of life. One gains that knowledge through dealing with the harsh realities of life that you "scientific" wallahs lack the spittle for.


" The world of dew
  is the world of dew.
  And yet, and yet--"
       Kobayashi Issa
 

Offline eeyore

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JeffreyH

John Cooper Clarke, eh?

Saw him on "Pointless Celebrities" or was it "Never Mind the Buzzcocks".


Comparing him to William Blake highlights the silly and feckless inanity of contemporary England. It has been said by many  ( and who can blame them? ) that what is left are the tired dregs of the gene pool. That the vitality of England has long since escaped it's class-ridden, xenophobic nonsense to Canada, Australia and America.

I, myself, hope that is not the case, but those hopes are not enhanced by reading the examples of current English thought in this thread. [Sigh] John Cooper Clarke, indeed.

Well, I will nae fash about it.  Hope springs eternal. Let's see what John Oliver or Dara O'Brien have to say about it this week.

PS: If anyone knows where I can get an ebook copy of "Goodbye to all that", I would be very grateful to hear of it.
« Last Edit: 08/07/2016 02:57:32 by eeyore »
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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I have, indeed, seen the "balm of Gilead" working. 

Mr. Calverd, you and your friends here have made it abundantly clear that you lack the rudimentary spiritual resources of the Neanderthals.

In consequence, the vicissitudes of life give you all an aggravated case of the chronic collywobbles. You all cover this up with a load of flippant and supercilious smartass as a compensation for your profound despair.

I have spent over 40 years in medicine. Nobody can do that without gaining knowledge of the divine mysteries of life. One gains that knowledge through dealing with the harsh realities of life that you "scientific" wallahs lack the spittle for.


" The world of dew
  is the world of dew.
  And yet, and yet--"
       Kobayashi Issa
Atheism and science are the way of the future... It's where every evolved intelligent species will ultimately end up.  Some of us are just a little more ahead of our time.  But in due time we'll be in the mega majority. All good things in due time. 


As an aside, you might not want to be so quick to launch personal attacks against a mod though.  After all, on this site, they're your god lol.
 

Offline eeyore

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If Mr. Calverd or any of the moderators here think they are my God, then it is time one of their friends took them out back and set them straight.

Mr. Calverd had the temerity to mock my religion. I hope either you or he lives to see the day that I would abide such insufferable behavior and tug my forelock and remain silent.

Gentlemen, even Gentlemen in England, even atheistic Gentlemen in England, do not do that. It is not admirable. It is, in fact, pure Jeremy Clarkson style beneath-the-salt gaucherie.

I am well aware of England's current intolerance of dissenting voices. If I cannot discuss this matter without having my religious beliefs ridiculed by some "scientific" unholy and profane "gentleman" then this forum can take its phony imposture of "civility" and blow it out its phony, ridiculous, and atheistic nose.

Finally, as to your brave new atheistic world, Mr. High Pockets....Winter is coming.
« Last Edit: 08/07/2016 07:56:59 by eeyore »
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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If Mr. Calverd or any of the moderators here think they are my God, then it is time one of their friends took them out back and set them straight.

Mr. Calverd had the temerity to mock my religion. I hope either you or he lives to see the day that I would abide such insufferable behavior and tug my forelock and remain silent.

Gentlemen, even Gentlemen in England, even atheistic Gentlemen in England, do not do that. It is not admirable. It is, in fact, pure Jeremy Clarkson style beneath-the-salt gaucherie.

I am well aware of England's current intolerance of dissenting voices. If I cannot discuss this matter without having my religious beliefs ridiculed by some "scientific" unholy and profane "gentleman" then this forum can take its phony imposture of "civility" and blow it out its phony, ridiculous, and atheistic nose.

Finally, as to your brave new atheistic world, Mr. High Pockets....Winter is coming.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

“In Numbers 31:15-18, after his soldiers had killed all of the men among the Midianites, Moses ordered his army officers to kill all of the male children, kill all of the nonvirgin females but to save alive all of the virgin girls for his troops. Prior to this, the Israelites had taken all of the animals and goods of the Midianites and then burned all of their towns.

 If genocide or "ethnic cleansing" is a war crime, then this act of Moses was clearly a war crime…What possible reason could Moses have given in order to justify this horrendous act of genocide? After all, wasn't he the great "law giver"?

Moses claimed that Yahweh, the God of Israel, ordered him to do this, because the Midianites worshiped a deity named Baal Peor. The Midianites felt that Baal Peor was nature's god, the creator of the universe, whereas the Israelites believed that their god Yahweh was the creator. .. So, in effect, what we have here is a demonization of those people who refer to the creator by a different name. These people are accused of worshiping a false god.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Now be brave and?


"Then stand up and defend your religion" and at least, tell all of us why it is OK for "God" to murder little innocent boys and commit genocide against he Midianite people by proxy though kind gentle Moses as depicted in Numbers 31, or keep quite and let the other members debate the subject from an ethical scientific perceptive?

Getting back to the subject of the thread I think euthanasia should only be used of those who have made it very clear while still in control of all their mental faculties that it is their expressed wish that this final act of love and mercy be done for them when they no longer have the means to do it for themselves.

One could say it would be an act of "Assisted suicide by proxy .

Not running around murdering people with disabilities like our religious member keeps on telling us that is what we are suggesting!
 

Offline alancalverd

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Mr. Calverd, you and your friends here have made it abundantly clear that you lack the rudimentary spiritual resources of the Neanderthals.
...a group whose skills in medicine and warfare resulted in their complete annihilation. And since they left no written record, I might challenge your presumption of their spiritual values.

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I have spent over 40 years in medicine.
Me too. There's nothing like experience to make you doubt the existence of benign fairies.

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Mr. Calverd had the temerity to mock my religion.
Not just yours, and not merely mock. Most faiths demand the abrogation of moral responsibility and intellectual honesty. I find that disgusting. 
« Last Edit: 09/07/2016 10:16:58 by alancalverd »
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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“In Numbers 31:15-18, after his soldiers had killed all of the men among the Midianites, Moses ordered his army officers to kill all of the male children, kill all of the nonvirgin females but to save alive all of the virgin girls for his troops. Prior to this, the Israelites had taken all of the animals and goods of the Midianites and then burned all of their towns.

 If genocide or "ethnic cleansing" is a war crime, then this act of Moses was clearly a war crime…What possible reason could Moses have given in order to justify this horrendous act of genocide? After all, wasn't he the great "law giver"?

Moses claimed that Yahweh, the God of Israel, ordered him to do this, because the Midianites worshiped a deity named Baal Peor. The Midianites felt that Baal Peor was nature's god, the creator of the universe, whereas the Israelites believed that their god Yahweh was the creator. .. So, in effect, what we have here is a demonization of those people who refer to the creator by a different name. These people are accused of worshiping a false god.

I didn't realize that entire part was plagiarized from another site (http://christianthinktank.com/midian.html).  You probably would want to give credit when you do that to the originating site, lest the words be taken as your own.  But regardless, it was ironic that the very site you got it from devotes the whole page to actually dissecting that quote and tearing it to shreds in a very detailed way, and go on to give their assessment of what the real reasons were for.  It was interesting reading actually. 


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"Then stand up and defend your religion" and at least, tell all of us why it is OK for "God" to murder little innocent boys and commit genocide against he Midianite people by proxy
First, it's the same religion and same god as yours, and the same moses.  I would ask you to stand up and defend the same. 

Because it is not ok for 'god' to murder innocent anyone.  The sad part is god is fictional and can't murder to begin with.  The problem is man committing these disgusting acts of murder in the name of this false creature.  Time and time and time again, murdering in the creature's name.  It's disgusting.  It's why it's laughable that atheists are the ones looked at as immoral, or needing moral guidance from the ignorantly religious.  So much death and destruction throughout history in the name of the false creature.  The last thing atheists need is moral guidance from a group of people who have throughout history been responsible for so many disgusting crimes against humanity. 

But again, this example of above is from the same bible and supposed orders from the same creature and same moses that you worship.  How do you defend it?

But those are just more rhetorical questions, since I guess technically a bible study class isn't what I'm on this site for.  Just couldn't help but see the irony in your questions.

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through kind gentle Moses as depicted in Numbers 31
Apparently, he was neither kind nor gentle lol

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Getting back to the subject of the thread I think euthanasia should only be used of those who have made it very clear while still in control of all their mental faculties that it is their expressed wish that this final act of love and mercy be done for them when they no longer have the means to do it for themselves.

I very much agree with that.
« Last Edit: 08/07/2016 16:20:48 by IAMREALITY »
 
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Offline IAMREALITY

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Mr. Calverd had the temerity to mock my religion. I hope either you or he lives to see the day that I would abide such insufferable behavior and tug my forelock and remain silent.

He did so with absolute legitimacy.  I commend him greatly for it.


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Gentlemen, even Gentlemen in England, even atheistic Gentlemen in England, do not do that. It is not admirable. It is, in fact, pure Jeremy Clarkson style beneath-the-salt gaucherie.
I honestly couldn't care less about england or gentlemen.  What I know is that it's long overdue for atheists to finally come out of the woodwork and no longer be scared of declaring their stance, for it is the true admirable one.  It is a position of evolved intellect and solid moral foundation.  It is a position we should be proud of and should no longer allow the religious nuts, those who suffer from immorality with their false judgments, from judging us, shaming us and making us feel like second class citizens.  I've decided I no longer will, and not only that, but that I will speak up and no longer allow religion to go unchallenged, to just have an 'ehh, it's ok for people to believe if they want" type stance.  Not when religion is the biggest stain on humanity, its most tragic flaw, its greatest sign of ignorance, and what is responsible for so much death, destruction, pain, immoral judgment, bias, politics, bullying, denial of science, and roadblocks to advancement as a society.  It's time for the intellectuals to take the world back, and help to eradicate it from the stain and ignorance of religion.   It's time as a race that we move into the future, now having enough science and knowledge at our fingertips to no longer have to ascribe to the ignorance of the past, the archaic way of thinking, that things need to be attributed to some ridiculous deity.  We shouldn't hide anymore, should feel shame in standing up and shouting out "Everyone, wake up!  Science rules the universe, your life is your own, things happen cause they do, stop doing things in the name of a creature that doesn't exist, stop judging based on a book written by man and stories made up just the same!  Use your heads, and logic and science and fact and reasoning to guide you, not this made up book and in the name of the made up creature!  Use your actual brains, and insight and awareness instead!  Be brainwashed no more!"  Yes, that is most definitely the admirable thing to do; for us, for society, for the planet.

And what's wrong with Jeremy Clarkson?  I adore this quote by him:
" I genuinely believe we are born with a moral compass and we don't need it reset every Sunday morning by some weird-beard communist in a dress. I am, as you may have gathered, completely unreligious, but it doesn't stop me trying to be kind to others, and I'm never completely overwhelmed with a need to murder madmen in pulpits. Slightly overwhelmed sometimes, but never completely. Morally, the world would be no worse if religion were abolished. Practically, it would be much, much better. And so, given the choice of which we should give up, God or the patio heater, the choice is simple" -Jeremy Clarkson


Quote
I am well aware of England's current intolerance of dissenting voices. If I cannot discuss this matter without having my religious beliefs ridiculed by some "scientific" unholy and profane "gentleman" then this forum can take its phony imposture of "civility" and blow it out its phony, ridiculous, and atheistic nose.

This is a site of science.  There is nothing scientific about religion.  This is a site of intellect.  There is nothing intellectual about religion.  So I for one, am all for it being mocked.  But I believe it had still been done with civility.

Quote
Finally, as to your brave new atheistic world, Mr. High Pockets....Winter is coming.
Nah...  Still much summer left to go.  But look at the numbers...  Year by year atheism is growing.  Because as a species we're evolving.  Because our knowledge is growing.  Because the next generation is waking up and realizing how silly religion is.  And advancement always takes time.  But it's happening.  And a few generations from now we'll be in the majority, and centuries from now the world will be ruled by intellect, not religion.  That is the ultimate fate of all intellectual advancing races.  I can practically guarantee that if an advanced alien race visited us that they would not be part of any religious cult, but instead would be ruled by intellect.


But I should probably end the religious debate here.  But I guess it's all tied in to the OP, since so many would protest the quite humane allowance of assisted suicide in such situations merely on the basis of ignorant religion.  That's why it needs to be completely removed from the equation.  So that real morality combined with actual intellect can be used in the decision making.
« Last Edit: 08/07/2016 16:49:01 by IAMREALITY »
 

Offline eeyore

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“I should have thought,” said the officer as he visualized the search
before him, “I should have thought that a pack of British boys—you’re all
British, aren’t you?—would have been able to put up a better show than
that—I mean—”

-- Lord of the Flies
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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“I should have thought,” said the officer as he visualized the search
before him, “I should have thought that a pack of British boys—you’re all
British, aren’t you?—would have been able to put up a better show than
that—I mean—”

-- Lord of the Flies

What the heck is your obsession with the british?  I'm so confused lol.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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IAMREALITY


I plagiarized nothing just copied something identical to what I wrote out of my own head I was so desperately trying to get over "in different wording" to get him to address the appalling cruelty as depicted in Numbers 31


No one would be interested in the link other than you who tries to find fault in everything I do or say, stop it for 'Gods sake"



Please stop trying to make trouble between us again , we have managed a few posts without it until this latest post of yours.


Alan
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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IAMREALITY


I plagiarized nothing just copied something identical to what I wrote out of my own head I was so desperately trying to get over "in different wording" to get him to address the appalling cruelty as depicted in Numbers 31


No one would be interested in the link other than you who tries to find fault in everything I do or say, stop it for 'Gods sake"



Please stop trying to make trouble between us again , we have managed a few posts without it until this latest post of yours.


Alan

I believe it is you finding fault here.  I hadn't known those words weren't yours.  When I suddenly found them on the page I had just clicked on (simple search of "moses midianites"), it surprised me.  That's why I gave the advice that you should make it clear when words aren't your own.  The link was provided as I had found the actual rebuttal of that very quote you posted as interesting.  Thought others might as well.  Hell, you even might've, if you actually read it.  But I'm fairly certain that the including of a link caused you no personal harm.

You also call out the other poster to defend his creature.  I found it an interesting request being that it is the same creature as the one you worship, and what is referenced is the same disgusting story found in the same book and same religion as the one you worship, so I figured the demand to defend should apply to you just the same.  I'm not sure why it wouldn't, nor why that would be 'causing trouble' instead of an actual, logical, reasonable and based on the merits request.  Was your only intention to 'cause trouble' to Eeyore?  Or do you feel it had been a legitimate request?  Do you accuse yourself of the same?
« Last Edit: 08/07/2016 20:01:21 by IAMREALITY »
 

Offline eeyore

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Gentle Readers,

It was asked of me why I am "obsessed" with the British.

If I am obsessed with anything it is the depraved, specious contention that a valid case may be made for murdering Alzheimer's patients.

I am all too aware of this forum's de facto policy of disappearing anybody who disagrees effectively with the "scientific" cant of the honorable "hero Members".  A glance through the threads of this forum will show this to be the case. Where are the dissenting voices of yesteryear?

Such a question as "mercy killing" of the infirm has not existed outside of extremist nut jobs on this planet since the fall of Berlin in 1945.

It speaks to the shame of modern Britain that it is now promulgated here in this government funded new-speak forum for three pages....so far.

J' accuse.
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Gentle Readers,

It was asked of me why I am "obsessed" with the British.

If I am obsessed with anything it is the depraved, specious contention that a valid case may be made for murdering Alzheimer's patients.

I am all too aware of this forum's de facto policy of disappearing anybody who disagrees effectively with the "scientific" cant of the honorable "hero Members".  A glance through the threads of this forum will show this to be the case. Where are the dissenting voices of yesteryear?

Such a question as "mercy killing" of the infirm has not existed outside of extremist nut jobs on this planet since the fall of Berlin in 1945.

It speaks to the shame of modern Britain that it is now promulgated here in this government funded new-speak forum for three pages....so far.

J' accuse.

Though much of what you say is not readily coherent, what I can say is that I've seen plenty of dissenting voices here.  Furthermore, this is a science based forum, with its roots, in, ya know, science.. You can throw in facts, logic, critical thinking skills and reasoning into that mix as well.  That's why religion doesn't fit so much, but I digress.  But still, I find it perfectly reasonable that the administrators of this site would want topics and discussion to revolve around those tenets... It just, I dunno, makes sense?

As far as your twisting of the OP to being murder, into the horrors of germany, and relegated to extremist nut jobs, is just beyond the pale.  No, that is not what is being discussed here.  But instead, the perfectly reasonable, sane, humane and decent topic of whether law should allow for the assisted suicide of those suffering from the horrors of severe alzheimers, for those that willingly would choose such a fate.  Twisting it in such the way you did only makes you appear as an extremist, not us.

...and I still have no idea what your obsession with the british is all about.
« Last Edit: 08/07/2016 20:02:54 by IAMREALITY »
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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For sake of the spirit of the thread, I agree that Alzheimers is horrible due to what it does to a person, diminishing them to merely a shell of themselves, their minds almost no longer present at all.  And it takes a lifetime of pride, of one putting effort into themselves to come across best they can, present themselves best they can, to grow as a person best they can and to hold their heads high through good times and bad best they can, and reduces them to something they'd be so ashamed of or embarrassed of if they had their wits about them (though it's not their fault and there is no shame!).

I for one, would most certainly be grateful to my loved ones for sparing me from such a fate.  No, Alan, I would not want to end my days under the horrors of that disease either.  In that we agree.  And I find the discussion to absolutely have merit, if assisted suicide is called for in such situations.  I actually would consider it to be one of the most humane and gracious things that can be done.  And though I always think suicide is the right of any individual, I do not always find it to be honorable, and oftentimes actually selfish and short sighted.  What might not be known here is that I've actually saved many from committing such an act throughout my life, and have several that say they owe their lives to me and are so grateful, because they since have gone on to have families, or become successful, or have gotten through the dark time, and realize the mistake they would've made.  Hell, I'm one of those people myself.  The whole iamreality moniker started after a suicide attempt I was hell bent on.  After the attempt was unsuccessful (won't go into details), I was left with a mental strength I hadn't had before, a clear voice in the middle of my head that I've been able to tap into ever since for wisdom and logic.  And it's since helped many others.  But that's cause suicide most often is a rash and impulsive decision and the bigger picture isn't seen.  In most of those cases it simply wouldn't be the right thing to do.  But in cases such as this, such as what is being discussed here, there would absofrigginlutely be honor and legitimacy in the act.  It wouldn't be rash, impulsive nor short sighted.  It would be the most logical and reasonable of desires that would be at the root; the desire to die representing who we were in life, with the dignity and grace that should go along with it.

Yes, it is a reasonable, credible, humane, decent and intelligent option to be on the table, and on the table it should be, for everyone.
« Last Edit: 08/07/2016 20:43:35 by IAMREALITY »
 

Offline alancalverd

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If I am obsessed with anything it is the depraved, specious contention that a valid case may be made for murdering Alzheimer's patients.
Murder cannot be justified. But nobody here is advocating murder. The question is whether and how you can interpret the sincere wish of a person who can't express it in legal language. History abounds with instances of people being tortured to death for their own good, but in the absence of a religious justification, can we produce a scientific process for determining whether an incoherent person wants to live or die?
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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[size=78%] [/size]


For sake of the spirit of the thread, I agree that Alzheimers is horrible due to what it does to a person, diminishing them to merely a shell of themselves, their minds almost no longer present at all.  And it takes a lifetime of pride, of one putting effort into themselves to come across best they can, present themselves best they can, to grow as a person best they can and to hold their heads high through good times and bad best they can, and reduces them to something they'd be so ashamed of or embarrassed of if they had their wits about them (though it's not their fault and there is no shame!). I for one, would most certainly be grateful to my loved ones for sparing me from such a fate.  No, Alan, I would not want to end my days under the horrors of that disease either.  In that we agree.  And I find the discussion to absolutely have merit, if assisted suicide is called for in such situations.  I actually would consider it to be one of the most humane and gracious things that can be done.  And though I always think suicide is the right of any individual, I do not always find it to be honorable, and oftentimes actually selfish and short sighted.  What might not be known here is that I've actually saved many from committing such an act throughout my life, and have several that say they owe their lives to me and are so grateful, because they since have gone on to have families, or become successful, or have gotten through the dark time, and realize the mistake they would've made.  Hell, I'm one of those people myself.  The whole iamreality moniker started after a suicide attempt I was hell bent on.  After the attempt was unsuccessful (won't go into details), I was left with a mental strength I hadn't had before, a clear voice in the middle of my head that I've been able to tap into ever since for wisdom and logic.  And it's since helped many others.  But that's cause suicide most often is a rash and impulsive decision and the bigger picture isn't seen.  In most of those cases it simply wouldn't be the right thing to do.  But in cases such as this, such as what is being discussed here, there would absofrigginlutely be honor and legitimacy in the act.  It wouldn't be rash, impulsive nor short sighted.  It would be the most logical and reasonable of desires that would be at the root; the desire to die representing who we were in life, with the dignity and grace that should go along with it. Yes, it is a reasonable, credible, humane, decent and intelligent option to be on the table, and on the table it should be, for everyone.






Thanks you I agree with everything you said in that post.


My stance in religion is that of a rational theist. I despise fundamentalism in all its form and am selective in what I believe or do not believe in the Bible. What happened in my opinion, in Numbers 31 was the dictator Moses acting on his own and claiming God told him to murder all the Midianites.


The God of my understanding does not need help from a Moses or help it or any mortal human it can look after itself and does not need its ego stoked day and night be fawning human beings.
 

Offline Tim the Plumber

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My step Grandmother died due to not drinking water for the last week of her life.

Whilst she was a horrid person, not a wet eye at the funeral, I would not wish such a death on anybody at all.

Surely in circumstances where we put to sleep a dog in missery without all this ethical fuss it is similarly clear in 99% of the times that it would have been a lot better to have doen the same to the old lady rather than allow her demented and lost mind to neglect her own body to death.
 
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Offline alancalverd

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She was lucky to have a choice. "The Liverpool Care Pathway" is a euphemism for killing by deliberate dehydration and malnutrition in a hospital. Obviously it can only be applied to people who are incoherent and unable to fend for themselves , so once it has been prescribed, it is a good idea to sedate the patient and thus maintain incoherence and incapacity until clinical death - which may take days or weeks.

I cannot understand why this is ethically preferable to nitrogen hypoxia - 5 minutes of euphoria and a painless death.  http://www.avweb.com/news/aeromed/181893-1.html is splendidly detailed, but you can skip to "The Effects of Hypoxia at Various Altitudes" and consider the effect of being transported to 25,000 ft quickly without the discomfort of decompression.

But it still doesn't address the question of establishing the patient's wishes.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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My step Grandmother died due to not drinking water for the last week of her life.

Whilst she was a horrid person, not a wet eye at the funeral, I would not wish such a death on anybody at all.

Surely in circumstances where we put to sleep a dog in missery without all this ethical fuss it is similarly clear in 99% of the times that it would have been a lot better to have doen the same to the old lady rather than allow her demented and lost mind to neglect her own body to death.


My exact point and the reason I started this thread which validates the concept of euthanasia as a kind act of love, to help those who can no longer help themselves out of sometimes prolonged intractable suffering for the victim and even more distress for the family members that have had to care for and endure the horror of observing a person they love decaying into a mindless vegetable (I regret being so graphic)

Vindicated thank you!!

Alan
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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She was lucky to have a choice. "The Liverpool Care Pathway" is a euphemism for killing by deliberate dehydration and malnutrition in a hospital. Obviously it can only be applied to people who are incoherent and unable to fend for themselves , so once it has been prescribed, it is a good idea to sedate the patient and thus maintain incoherence and incapacity until clinical death - which may take days or weeks.

I cannot understand why this is ethically preferable to nitrogen hypoxia - 5 minutes of euphoria and a painless death.  http://www.avweb.com/news/aeromed/181893-1.html is splendidly detailed, but you can skip to "The Effects of Hypoxia at Various Altitudes" and consider the effect of being transported to 25,000 ft quickly without the discomfort of decompression.

But it still doesn't address the question of establishing the patient's wishes.

This option should be addressed while the Alzheimer patient is still in the early stage of the disease where it is their express the wish that in the event of reaching a vegetative state they should be put out of their misery.

Of course, that still leaves those who have not said anything and the ethical problem of euthanasia "regardless again for the same reason previously mentioned. I do, however, highly doubt that this would ever become legal practice for a whole host of other reasons?
 

Offline alancalverd

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Since we seem not to die from communicable disease or minor trauma these days, and more people each day are surviving cancer and heart disease, everyone is a potential Alzheimer patient. I consider it the hallmark of a civilised society that everyone should be able to choose the time, place and method of his death. So my draft proposal has four essential parts:

1. Anyone can make a "living will" to specify the circumstances in which he wants to be killed, and this must be given the same legal status as a property will. That is, it can be challenged on grounds of coercion or insanity, must be legally executable, and must nominate a willing executor to carry out the wishes expressed.

2. Where such a will exists, it is the duty of the person's medical carers to bring it to the notice of the executor (and vice versa) if it appears that the conditions are or shortly will be met.

3.The executor must present the will and the medical case to an independent ethics tribunal competent to weigh the medical evidence against the conditions set out in the will.

4. If the tribunal agrees that the conditions are met, the executor must arrange for a licensed practitioner to carry out the euthanasia in a timely manner. 

The object of all this is to ensure that, on the one hand, a trusted friend or family member is fully involved in the process, but on the other hand, there can be no hint of coercion or medical convenience in the decision.  Evidence to the tribunal should be anonymised to ensure independence.

In the absence of a trusted individual, the will can specify the State "duty executor" - a branch of the Office of the Public Guardian with legal but not medical expertise.

In answer to the inevitable "who would be willing to serve in any of these roles?", I would consider it an honour to investigate and carry out the expressed wish of a citizen in irreversible distress, and I don't think I'd be alone in volunteering.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Since we seem not to die from communicable disease or minor trauma these days, and more people each day are surviving cancer and heart disease, everyone is a potential Alzheimer patient. I consider it the hallmark of a civilised society that everyone should be able to choose the time, place and method of his death. So my draft proposal has four essential parts:

1. Anyone can make a "living will" to specify the circumstances in which he wants to be killed, and this must be given the same legal status as a property will. That is, it can be challenged on grounds of coercion or insanity, must be legally executable, and must nominate a willing executor to carry out the wishes expressed.

2. Where such a will exists, it is the duty of the person's medical carers to bring it to the notice of the executor (and vice versa) if it appears that the conditions are or shortly will be met.

3.The executor must present the will and the medical case to an independent ethics tribunal competent to weigh the medical evidence against the conditions set out in the will.

4. If the tribunal agrees that the conditions are met, the executor must arrange for a licensed practitioner to carry out the euthanasia in a timely manner. 

The object of all this is to ensure that, on the one hand, a trusted friend or family member is fully involved in the process, but on the other hand, there can be no hint of coercion or medical convenience in the decision.  Evidence to the tribunal should be anonymised to ensure independence.

In the absence of a trusted individual, the will can specify the State "duty executor" - a branch of the Office of the Public Guardian with legal but not medical expertise.

In answer to the inevitable "who would be willing to serve in any of these roles?", I would consider it an honour to investigate and carry out the expressed wish of a citizen in irreversible distress, and I don't think I'd be alone in volunteering.

Great well thought out logical response, I think it could not be better summated in the succinct way you did thank you.
 
 

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