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Author Topic: Will ice melt at the earth's poles lead to precipitation nearer the equator?  (Read 2924 times)

Offline thedoc

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Rube Eastgate asked the Naked Scientists:
   Question for the Naked Scientist :  if water in the earth's polar regions is decreasing, due to heating of the planet, and since I assume that this could only be by evaporation or melting, does this mean that there will be more precipitation over the warmer parts of earth for a long time to come ?
What do you think?
« Last Edit: 30/06/2016 09:50:02 by _system »


 

Offline Tim the Plumber

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Generally the wamer the world the wetter it is. That at least is the evidence from histroy.

This will not significantly effect the equitorial regions where it's already very wet. A 50mm rise in the rainfall here will not be a big difference to the 1500+ there is falling each year now.

However, that same 50mm increase in rainfall over the Sahara and it's surrounding semi desert regions would make a huge difference and allow the resurgence of the grassland/woodland that covered most of the area back in the early bronze age when there was a lake bigger than England in there. This process might be under way already with considerable increases in the plant life of surrounding areas.

Let's hope it goes all the way.
 

Online evan_au

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Quote from: Tim the Plumber
50mm increase in rainfall over the Sahara and it's surrounding semi desert regions would make a huge difference and allow the resurgence of the grassland/woodland that covered most of the area back in the early bronze age
Much earlier, the Earth was recovering from the Ice Age, so temperatures were much lower. Radar surveys suggest a network of river valleys under today's sand. A cover of vegetation held the soil together, and recycled the water between air and soil.

Carthage in North Africa was considered "the breadbasket of the Roman empire". But demands for two crops per year led to soil degradation and crop failure. After the ensuing revolt, the Romans destroyed Carthage and salted the ground.

With no vegetation, the topsoil blows away and you are left with infertile sand. So human endeavors have produced deserts in the region.

Now, with temperatures increasing further, the desert is more likely to spread.

Rain is necessary, but you need more than just water to produce a healthy ecosystem.
 

Offline Tim the Plumber

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The Roman conquest of Carthage did not kill the soil. It was as you say the bread basket of the Empire untill the Arabs swept in and used the land for grazing their goats and cammels. That's when the soil washed nto Carthage harbour in one season and blocked the harbour.


Just a single fixing the world video about making the desert green.

https://w ww.you tube.co m/watch?v=re CemnJmkzI  I've broken it up a bit because It has not worked above.

It seems from watching the few similar videos I have that the swail contour water catchment thingy where they build a trench along the hillside to catch the rainwater and get it to soak into the ground is critical.

Obviously there could be a lot more such schemes and a lot of enthusiasm from the locals would be needed.

The increased CO2 in the air is helping with faster plant growth though.
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« Last Edit: 04/07/2016 16:39:25 by Tim the Plumber »
 

Online puppypower

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The polar ice caps help maintain a thermal gradient between the poles and the equator. This sets up convection both in the oceans and in the atmosphere; north-south and south-north. If all the ice melted, the thermal gradient between the poles and the equator would change and not be as reliable.

Ice acts like an anchor that helps fix the thermal gradient. The reason is, the temperature of water-ice can't increase above 0C until all the ice melts. If the ice all melts, the anchor is gone with liquid water able to fluctuate wider in temperature.

So what could happen is with the earth warmer, and more water evaporating into the atmosphere, weather may become more east-west with less fluctuation north-south. Jupiter's wind patterns go this way.

This type of weather pattern will change the equatorial deserts into green lands because the evaporation along the equator will flow more east-west. While the deep north and deep south may see less rain or only the rain that evaporate there.


 

Offline Tim the Plumber

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The polar ice caps help maintain a thermal gradient between the poles and the equator. This sets up convection both in the oceans and in the atmosphere; north-south and south-north. If all the ice melted, the thermal gradient between the poles and the equator would change and not be as reliable.

Ice acts like an anchor that helps fix the thermal gradient. The reason is, the temperature of water-ice can't increase above 0C until all the ice melts. If the ice all melts, the anchor is gone with liquid water able to fluctuate wider in temperature.

Are you suggesting that there is any likelyhood at all of there being any way in which human burning of fossil fuels could ever cause all the ice to melt at the poles???

If you are can you link to any science that says this please as I think you have gone off to fantasy land here.
 

Offline Tim the Plumber

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Do not be gooled by human aspiration, the polar capes are melting as a result of polar change, in other words, the polar capes aren't melting due human habits, happens that we're living in a period in expansion were, once again, the sun fliped his polarities and so would do we towards it, at least the inner core will...
  The planets forme Ice at the poles, our poles are moving has being years, as long as the poles continues to flip towards the sun, the earth will, is changing shape, becoming more spherical at the equator and more eliptical at the poles, was happening before this generation, ours, were even born yet, our mesurements of the last poles was than already unpredictable, cause they were already begining to move, now they are located far away from the origial possition....
  The Ice do not form as fast as the oles are changing place, untill the new poles location is seted the Ice capes and the magnetosphere, electromagnetism wil fail to leak the planet due liquid water spreading the expansion forming waves, the same as the tie with the moon, but from inside out the inner core of the earth...

  What they thing is the oceans drawning is, at least for me, the shores getting higher, since the ice is melting at the same speed this elevations of shores wouldn't be noticed...

 About end of the world is a little bit dramatic, cause nothing is heating up, actually is cooling down at the center, what could happen are tsunamis as the new poles move near the equator, also earthquakes, most of them under water, also volcanic ativeties most of it under water, and my models predict that they are already happening under the poles, adding volume to the bottom of the oceans, giving the impression that the elevation of the seas comes from the melting of the polar capes alone....

 But be sure of something, as soon as one pole start to melt to fast, the other one will start to be more in the shadow, resulted from a different inclintion of the earth towards the sun on the horizontal spiral disk, the opposite pole should than freeze really fast in and for a short period of time....

And about the hole on the ozonio layer, seriously? The layer is real, but the hole over the poles being, unatural? Do you want to sell more cheaper gas too?
 The hole on that part of the layer is resultant from the leaking electromagnetism, that hole is indeed a hole, but a natural one and do not be confused, there is a whole on the layer, but the electromagnetism leaking there won't let anything but light enter anyway, always has being like that....
 The whole is not closing, dam fools, the poles are moving under new liquid waters, s the magnetism fails to leak, the magnetosphere will decrease a bit, but most important the whole it causes will be slowly sealed, and this sealing is the worst part, we need that whole to cool down the planet, as more sealed it gets, more green house effects we would feel...

I know I keep saying it and keep getting the answer that we should indulge the mad as it would be inpolite to bann them for posting drivel but I just have to say it again;

A science forum should not be a place for the mad to spout drivel.
 

Online evan_au

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I recently visited Glacier Bay in Alaska.

We were told that of the 5 glaciers we viewed, most of the glaciers are losing mass faster than the snow is falling.

1 of the glaciers has more snow falling than it is losing in melting/calving.

That is a small sample, in one part of the world.
 

Online Alex Siqueira

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Ok, I can accept that, I really like to think that volcanic activities have never happen in our planet since the beginning, and that events like changing of polarity of a main star, in a universe that works basically with electromagnetism and polarity is not something relevant, also that the inner core of the planets is not moving independently from the other core and cross... Yeah it would be nice if the north and south poles weren't always subjected to be settled in another ordinary place of the globe, it would be really very scientific... Imagine, dislocate the poles of a planet as it is already happening, but doing this without melting the Ice the electromagnetism helps to form, yes a planet subjected by humans wishes, much more reasonable...
 So one living being at his period in time, always assume that there is less than 1% of chance of some global geological event be happening, others use theirs short life perception to say that is simple ridiculous, based on emotions, and don't get me wrong, with respect, controlled, doutrined, educated ways to express emotion have still a emotional base...
 I guess in the long term, we all would know not the one of us witch was correct, or more correct, but witch one was gasping a scenario the most near reality..

 Just one advice, you're one of the person on this forum the opposite as me, one that can express his ideas in a more pomp way using his mother language, just do not throw yourself away sir,. The lack of patience is by no meant the most primitive trace of a limited compreenssion, it also exchanges mental capabilities for physical ones, as speed and hurry... One starts to relate progress more with speed than with new acquired knowledge, till the speed and perfection of ones idea starts to sound more scientific than the correct confused version... The quality means nothing in terms of science, only the correct answers matters, if one does not know, is very primitive to not consent... SImple cause only a supreme being with total knowledge can consent things, such being does not exist, lack this perception when allied with power could be very dangerous too, after all, what's society if nothing more than an artificial enviroment... You've, now, become as dangerows as a geological event...
 Getting ahead of myself, I'll try to be smart and do the right thing as long you yourself do not have this power, and say that I'll take more care from now when inside your discussions, and that I'm really sorry for my ignorance, would this lack of disagreement just by remaining in silence enough to artificially estimulate the total knowledge? I ask seriously cause I don't bother about serve another in a way my life doesn't get compromised with the help. See, I don't lack patience cause I don't make myself of needing of it...
« Last Edit: 11/07/2016 00:56:07 by Alex Siqueira »
 

Online Alex Siqueira

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Do not be gooled by human aspiration, the polar capes are melting as a result of polar change, in other words, the polar capes aren't melting due human habits, happens that we're living in a period in expansion were, once again, the sun fliped his polarities and so would do we towards it, at least the inner core will...
  The planets forme Ice at the poles, our poles are moving has being years, as long as the poles continues to flip towards the sun, the earth will, is changing shape, becoming more spherical at the equator and more eliptical at the poles, was happening before this generation, ours, were even born yet, our mesurements of the last poles was than already unpredictable, cause they were already begining to move, now they are located far away from the origial possition....
  The Ice do not form as fast as the oles are changing place, untill the new poles location is seted the Ice capes and the magnetosphere, electromagnetism wil fail to leak the planet due liquid water spreading the expansion forming waves, the same as the tie with the moon, but from inside out the inner core of the earth...

  What they thing is the oceans drawning is, at least for me, the shores getting higher, since the ice is melting at the same speed this elevations of shores wouldn't be noticed...

 About end of the world is a little bit dramatic, cause nothing is heating up, actually is cooling down at the center, what could happen are tsunamis as the new poles move near the equator, also earthquakes, most of them under water, also volcanic ativeties most of it under water, and my models predict that they are already happening under the poles, adding volume to the bottom of the oceans, giving the impression that the elevation of the seas comes from the melting of the polar capes alone....

 But be sure of something, as soon as one pole start to melt to fast, the other one will start to be more in the shadow, resulted from a different inclintion of the earth towards the sun on the horizontal spiral disk, the opposite pole should than freeze really fast in and for a short period of time....

And about the hole on the ozonio layer, seriously? The layer is real, but the hole over the poles being, unatural? Do you want to sell more cheaper gas too?
 The hole on that part of the layer is resultant from the leaking electromagnetism, that hole is indeed a hole, but a natural one and do not be confused, there is a whole on the layer, but the electromagnetism leaking there won't let anything but light enter anyway, always has being like that....
 The whole is not closing, dam fools, the poles are moving under new liquid waters, s the magnetism fails to leak, the magnetosphere will decrease a bit, but most important the whole it causes will be slowly sealed, and this sealing is the worst part, we need that whole to cool down the planet, as more sealed it gets, more green house effects we would feel...


I know I keep saying it and keep getting the answer that we should indulge the mad as it would be inpolite to bann them for posting drivel but I just have to say it again;

A science forum should not be a place for the mad to spout drivel.

Ok, I can accept that, I really like to think that volcanic activities have never happen in our planet since the beginning, and that events like changing of polarity of a main star, in a universe that works basically with electromagnetism and polarity is not something relevant, also that the inner core of the planets is not moving independently from the other core and cross... Yeah it would be nice if the north and south poles weren't always subjected to be settled in another ordinary place of the globe, it would be really very scientific... Imagine, dislocate the poles of a planet as it is already happening, but doing this without melting the Ice the electromagnetism helps to form, yes a planet subjected by humans wishes, much more reasonable...
 So one living being at his period in time, always assume that there is less than 1% of chance of some global geological event be happening, others use theirs short life perception to say that is simple ridiculous, based on emotions, and don't get me wrong, with respect, controlled, doutrined, educated ways to express emotion have still a emotional base...
 I guess in the long term, we all would know not the one of us witch was correct, or more correct, but witch one was gasping a scenario the most near reality..

 Just one advice, you're one of the person on this forum the opposite as me, one that can express his ideas in a more pomp way using his mother language, just do not throw yourself away sir,. The lack of patience is by no meant the most primitive trace of a limited compreenssion, it also exchanges mental capabilities for physical ones, as speed and hurry... One starts to relate progress more with speed than with new acquired knowledge, till the speed and perfection of ones idea starts to sound more scientific than the correct confused version... The quality means nothing in terms of science, only the correct answers matters, if one does not know, is very primitive to not consent... SImple cause only a supreme being with total knowledge can consent things, such being does not exist, lack this perception when allied with power could be very dangerous too, after all, what's society if nothing more than an artificial enviroment... You've, now, become as dangerows as a geological event...
 Getting ahead of myself, I'll try to be smart and do the right thing as long you yourself do not have this power, and say that I'll take more care from now when inside your discussions, and that I'm really sorry for my ignorance, would this lack of disagreement just by remaining in silence enough to artificially estimulate the total knowledge? I ask seriously cause I don't bother about serve another in a way my life doesn't get compromised with the help. See, I don't lack patience cause I try to not make myself in needing of it...

obs.: as for common knoledge, based on data and predictions, you can start with this, scientific predictions and facts that are already happening during the last couple decades, as I atested before we were even born, maybe you do not care to much about it, but I do live in south america and its could much earlier than it should have being in comparison to last years, also north continents have suffered a harsh winter, rising shores being deleted from the historical records, all this happening and selfish humans keep believing that they are indeed selfish as they believe, blaming themselves for a cosmic second of existence over a billion years chaotic slightly elliptical planet...
 anyway loose a few secunds, and after have watched this example start to track down the sources and the calculations, wherever do your research, youtube.com/watch?v=sIayxqk0Ees, or don't, its not like the world is comming to an end, its simple a global event that may or may not affect, my or your continent... and if you inssist that the data is produced by midia, there will be nothing to discuss about it, wish you're 100% correct, I'm certainily not 100% correct too...
« Last Edit: 11/07/2016 03:49:08 by Alex Siqueira »
 

Online puppypower

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The polar ice caps help maintain a thermal gradient between the poles and the equator. This sets up convection both in the oceans and in the atmosphere; north-south and south-north. If all the ice melted, the thermal gradient between the poles and the equator would change and not be as reliable.

Ice acts like an anchor that helps fix the thermal gradient. The reason is, the temperature of water-ice can't increase above 0C until all the ice melts. If the ice all melts, the anchor is gone with liquid water able to fluctuate wider in temperature.

Are you suggesting that there is any likelyhood at all of there being any way in which human burning of fossil fuels could ever cause all the ice to melt at the poles???

If you are can you link to any science that says this please as I think you have gone off to fantasy land here.



The question was will ice melt at the earth poles lead to precipitation nearer the equator. I was not suggesting any mechanism for the melting of the poles. I was simply extrapolating the premise of the poles melting. If you take away the fixed north-south thermal gradient, moderated by ice, weather will become more west-east.

I read that the glaciers are not melting due to global warming, but rather due to particulate pollution, such as from the smoke from the millions of acres of forest fires each year. If you live where it snows, the roads are salted and sanded. This causes the piles of other wise white snow to get dirty. The dirty piles of snow then get even dirtier looking as they melt; higher and higher ratio of salt/sand to snow, which makes the solar melting  more affective, even if the temperature does not change.





 
 

Online Alex Siqueira

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The polar ice caps help maintain a thermal gradient between the poles and the equator. This sets up convection both in the oceans and in the atmosphere; north-south and south-north. If all the ice melted, the thermal gradient between the poles and the equator would change and not be as reliable.

Ice acts like an anchor that helps fix the thermal gradient. The reason is, the temperature of water-ice can't increase above 0C until all the ice melts. If the ice all melts, the anchor is gone with liquid water able to fluctuate wider in temperature.

Are you suggesting that there is any likelyhood at all of there being any way in which human burning of fossil fuels could ever cause all the ice to melt at the poles???

If you are can you link to any science that says this please as I think you have gone off to fantasy land here.



The question was will ice melt at the earth poles lead to precipitation nearer the equator. I was not suggesting any mechanism for the melting of the poles. I was simply extrapolating the premise of the poles melting. If you take away the fixed north-south thermal gradient, moderated by ice, weather will become more west-east.

I read that the glaciers are not melting due to global warming, but rather due to particulate pollution, such as from the smoke from the millions of acres of forest fires each year. If you live where it snows, the roads are salted and sanded. This causes the piles of other wise white snow to get dirty. The dirty piles of snow then get even dirtier looking as they melt; higher and higher ratio of salt/sand to snow, which makes the solar melting  more affective, even if the temperature does not change.



This explains the polution, but i do not believe that the polution is causing the polar met, is a possibility, but try to follow the techinacal information about polar shifting, it is speeding up, fast and exponentialy during the last hundred years, measurements from Nasa untill gelological and wether institutes...
 The two possible scenarios were expected fast polar change, or slower polar change, happens that it was both and will be finished the cicle during our lifetime...
  The news is that the poles are not spining one t the other as one expect, moving like a straig static line trought the globe, the measurements reveal that the poles are moving fast towards the center of the planet, thus the equator, moving up to Russia and passing the berbuda triangle, once the zero point is reached there is a chance of the magnetosphere become very weak a few days, it is already full of holes, over some regions, as son as the flip have reached the zero point at the equator, or they will simple flip or a shockwave will be produced during the flip, it would be the apice of the precipitations but will be a quick event...
  Try to search the new content about the measurements, its now obvious that is growing exponentially, the chemtrails Brasil have started this year, just over my region at south Brasil, one of the weakest spots of the magnetosphere, also information about sea level rising at specific reagions most probably due volcanic activeties underwater, have being hided or deleted day after publication...
  The most probably reason one could find to expain polar cape melting is the moving poles under new waters resulting in a weakened maghnetosphere, this would eventually alowed sun and cosmic radiation to penetrate ore deep into the planet, leading to the melting, this untill the new poles become stable on their new places on the crost, could take a few years to stabilise if they stay again underwater...

 The green house effect could actually help us, ot prevent another glacial age that would require vulcanic activeties to melt, in that scenario the polutuion of co2 we have produced may actually at the end help the planet by increasing temperatures during the process....

I really sujest you read about it, for me there is little doubt now on 2016 that the melting is a natural reaction of magnetic polar flip...

Here some record of my reagion Rio grande do Sul, south Brasil, right under intense chemtrails activities since last year, 12 of those planes every cloudy morning in periods shorter than one and a half hour... http://imgur.com/a/73UiL, those are pictures of my own, but the intristing fact, chemtrails is aperantly related with reinforments to the weakened spost of the magnetosphere, than with geo engenering, search for the map of chemtrail activeties, and than cross that map with the map showing the weaken spots reagions of our magnetosphere, I'm right bellow the one in south america, France has another....
 Something big is happening this years, not sure if is catastrophic, but certainly is well covered, so one can conclude that is something uncertain...
« Last Edit: 11/07/2016 14:49:23 by Alex Siqueira »
 

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