# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Can we climb into the past?  (Read 1877 times)

#### Thebox

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##### Can we climb into the past?
« on: 02/07/2016 09:27:48 »
If I could freeze motion and place a huge ladder from the Earth to the Sun and then started to ascend the ladder, am I climbing into the past?

#### Alan McDougall

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #1 on: 02/07/2016 10:06:28 »
If I could freeze motion and place a huge ladder from the Earth to the Sun and then started to ascend the ladder, am I climbing into the past?

If you froze all motion it would not effect the flow of time from the past into the future.

No matter what direction you take be it climbing a mountain or descending down from it, or walking forwards or walking backward or standing still , you are always moving into the future. It is impossible to go into the past because , in a hypothetical scenario you could kill your own father and
cease to exist.

You question is really a silly one!

Alan

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #2 on: 02/07/2016 10:13:29 »
If I could freeze motion and place a huge ladder from the Earth to the Sun and then started to ascend the ladder, am I climbing into the past?

If you froze all motion it would not effect the flow of time from the past into the future.

No matter what direction you take be it climbing a mountain or descending down from it, or walking forwards or walking backward or standing still , you are always moving into the future. It is impossible to go into the past because , in a hypothetical scenario you could kill your own father and
cease to exist.

You question is really a silly one!

Alan

You have not considered that you see the sun in its past, so If I am climbing a ladder to the sun , am I not climbing into the past?

added - I drew the question.

added thought -  So the Sun end of the ladder is in the past? huh!

added fact - If we could produce a piece of elastic that could withstand the heat of the Sun and was long enough, there would be absolutely nothing that could stop us attaching the elastic to the sun and coupling the earth up like a truck towing a car. (p.s obvious our rockets are limited).

So obviously the tip of the ladder at the sun end or the elastic tip end at the sun is in a different time dimension than the Earth tip end.

« Last Edit: 02/07/2016 10:39:35 by Thebox »

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #3 on: 02/07/2016 10:52:55 »
So the Sun end of the ladder is in the past? huh!
No, it is in the same time as the earth.
Think about a train travelling from station A to station B which is 8mins away.
The train leave A at 1152, which is also the time at B.
The train arrives at B at 1200, which is also the time at A.
The times at A and B are always the same in this scenario it is only the times the train leaves and arrives that causes you confusion.
Now substitute Sun for train.

#### Alan McDougall

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #4 on: 02/07/2016 10:54:08 »
If I could freeze motion and place a huge ladder from the Earth to the Sun and then started to ascend the ladder, am I climbing into the past?

If you froze all motion it would not effect the flow of time from the past into the future.

No matter what direction you take be it climbing a mountain or descending down from it, or walking forwards or walking backward or standing still , you are always moving into the future. It is impossible to go into the past because , in a hypothetical scenario you could kill your own father and
cease to exist.

You question is really a silly one!

Alan

You have not considered that you see the sun in its past, so If I am climbing a ladder to the sun , am I not climbing into the past?

added - I drew the question.

added thought -  So the Sun end of the ladder is in the past? huh!

added fact - If we could produce a piece of elastic that could withstand the heat of the Sun and was long enough, there would be absolutely nothing that could stop us attaching the elastic to the sun and coupling the earth up like a truck towing a car. (p.s obvious our rockets are limited).

So obviously the tip of the ladder at the sun end or the elastic tip end at the sun is in a different time dimension than the Earth tip end.

No you are not climbing into the past to do that you would have to instantaneously get to the sun and do the impossible and exceed c.

While you a climbing you ladder you are moving into your future and so is the sun moving into its future silly one! To climb up your ladder would need time and time only flows in one direction from the past into the future.

You ask the oddest questions really you do!

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #5 on: 02/07/2016 10:56:06 »
So the Sun end of the ladder is in the past? huh!
No, it is in the same time as the earth.
Think about a train travelling from station A to station B which is 8mins away.
The train leave A at 1152, which is also the time at B.
The train arrives at B at 1200, which is also the time at A.
The times at A and B are always the same in this scenario it is only the times the train leaves and arrives that causes you confusion.
Now substitute Sun for train.

If you like I could turn the ladder into a train track and add the area contractions of the train travelling away from the Earth,  no you are wrong Colin, it takes 8 minutes for the photons of the ladders tip at the sun end to reach your eyes, so you see the tip of the ladder in the past not in its exact position.

You can check this information if you like, it is a fact, I have read this and you have all told me this about photons and the 8 minutes it takes to arrive at your eyes so we can see.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #6 on: 02/07/2016 10:58:03 »

You ask the oddest questions really you do!

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #7 on: 02/07/2016 11:08:54 »
the area contractions of the train travelling away from the Earth,
The what??

it takes 8 minutes for the photons of the ladders tip at the sun end to reach your eyes, so you see the tip of the ladder in the past not in its exact position.
Yes, the light shows where the sun was 8 mins ago, but the sun is in reality at the same time as the earth. The light leaves the sun at 1152 (same time on both sun and earth) and arrives at earth at 1200, which is also the time on the sun.

You can check this information if you like, it is a fact, I have read this and you have all told me this about photons and the 8 minutes it takes to arrive at your eyes so we can see.
But you are clearly not understanding what that means. It is only the travel time, the sun is not existing 8 mins behind us.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #8 on: 02/07/2016 11:22:54 »
the area contractions of the train travelling away from the Earth,
Quote from: colin
The what??

A bit like the Lorentz transformation and length contraction, except the 2d visual area contracts to a 0 point source.

If you stood  on the track directly behind a train that was on a long linear stretch of track, when the train moves away for m you, you would observe the rear area of the train to down scale in visual size. But that is why I left it out to keep it simple.

it takes 8 minutes for the photons of the ladders tip at the sun end to reach your eyes, so you see the tip of the ladder in the past not in its exact position.
Quote from: colin
Yes, the light shows where the sun was 8 mins ago, but the sun is in reality at the same time as the earth. The light leaves the sun at 1152 (same time on both sun and earth) and arrives at earth at 1200, which is also the time on the sun.

You say the light shows where the sun was 8 mins ago, so the photons from the tip of the ladder, the sun end ,shows where the ladder tip was 8 mins ago?

You can check this information if you like, it is a fact, I have read this and you have all told me this about photons and the 8 minutes it takes to arrive at your eyes so we can see.
Quote
But you are clearly not understanding what that means. It is only the travel time, the sun is not existing 8 mins behind us.
I understand , it is about the position, the ladder which is now a couple moves with the Sun, it also moves our end in synch with the sun , we can see the ladder change angle relative to the movement of the Sun. Consider my reply one up.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #9 on: 02/07/2016 11:38:00 »
Added - in the style of Einstein

If we had an extendable ''rod'' that could extend an infinite amount of measurement, ze rod would define ze exact geometrical position of any body relative to ze Earth end of ze ''rod'' by angle of ze ''rod''.

ze line of sight moves with the body and we see ze ''rod tips'' in the exact geometrical position.

« Last Edit: 02/07/2016 11:43:35 by Thebox »

#### Alan McDougall

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #10 on: 02/07/2016 17:17:52 »

You ask the oddest questions really you do!

It is odd because it makes no sense, you could freeze the whole universe to absolute zero and stop all movement, but time which is not a physical thing would not be affected and will continue to flow (for lack of a better word)  only one direction, like that of an arrow regardless, on ever object and every object on it, beneath it, near to it, far from it, always, always and always, from the past, meet up with your at your now moment and flow with you into  the infinite future.

Of course if all movement were stopped by a god and it allowed the universe to freeze down to absolute zero, the "flow" of entropy or energy dissipation would stop increasing", but time will still continue on its it merry way, although it would be impossible to measure.

You can stand on your head , walk backward, walk forward, travel at a close to c without violating any of the fundamental constants, climb a billion light year ladder, jump up and down, run backward and then reverse and run forward, put your spaceship in reverse or accelerate with it as close to c as dammit, stand still on earth for a billion years, or hover in outer space for a Planck moment, or a billion years, and in every case, without exception, you would always be going into your own future and everything else in the entire universe would be going into its future , relative to their frames of reference.

Time is not a fundamental constant, but in another sense it is, in that time in our universe  time always in flows in linear manner, from the past into the future, for every object in the universe from the smallest subatomic particle, to that largest thing known , namely the entire universe at large.

Past...............>Now......................> Future.............................>Eternity

Alan

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #11 on: 03/07/2016 00:44:42 »
I understand , it is about the position, the ladder which is now a couple moves with the Sun,
The term couple has a specific meaning in physics and it is not the one you are using.

it also moves our end in synch with the sun , we can see the ladder change angle relative to the movement of the Sun
If you think about this carefully you would realise that the ladder would appear to be curved. It would start at the earth aiming in the direction of the sun's actual position now (1200), and would appear to curve backwards towards where the sun was at 1152.
The ladder does not move back in time at the sun end, only its image as a result in the delay caused by the speed of light.

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#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #12 on: 03/07/2016 11:48:23 »
I understand , it is about the position, the ladder which is now a couple moves with the Sun,
The term couple has a specific meaning in physics and it is not the one you are using.

it also moves our end in synch with the sun , we can see the ladder change angle relative to the movement of the Sun
If you think about this carefully you would realise that the ladder would appear to be curved. It would start at the earth aiming in the direction of the sun's actual position now (1200), and would appear to curve backwards towards where the sun was at 1152.
The ladder does not move back in time at the sun end, only its image as a result in the delay caused by the speed of light.

A great answer Colin and showing space-time curvature , an answer that one anticipated, you would not see the ladder to be curved Colin, in reality you would not see the ''tip'' of the ladder the Sun end because of the visual contraction.

However we would see the ladder move relative to the sun like a compass needle always point the right direction.

« Last Edit: 03/07/2016 11:50:47 by Thebox »

#### Alan McDougall

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #13 on: 03/07/2016 12:53:00 »
I understand , it is about the position, the ladder which is now a couple moves with the Sun,
The term couple has a specific meaning in physics and it is not the one you are using.

it also moves our end in synch with the sun , we can see the ladder change angle relative to the movement of the Sun
If you think about this carefully you would realise that the ladder would appear to be curved. It would start at the earth aiming in the direction of the sun's actual position now (1200), and would appear to curve backwards towards where the sun was at 1152.
The ladder does not move back in time at the sun end, only its image as a result in the delay caused by the speed of light.

A great answer Colin and showing space-time curvature , an answer that one anticipated, you would not see the ladder to be curved Colin, in reality you would not see the ''tip'' of the ladder the Sun end because of the visual contraction.

However we would see the ladder move relative to the sun like a compass needle always point the right direction.

I repeat because it is obvious no one read my post it is impossible go into the past by climbing a ladder or any of another infinity of other reasons.

I am baffled why people continue responding to this non-science?

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #14 on: 03/07/2016 12:56:21 »
I understand , it is about the position, the ladder which is now a couple moves with the Sun,
The term couple has a specific meaning in physics and it is not the one you are using.

it also moves our end in synch with the sun , we can see the ladder change angle relative to the movement of the Sun
If you think about this carefully you would realise that the ladder would appear to be curved. It would start at the earth aiming in the direction of the sun's actual position now (1200), and would appear to curve backwards towards where the sun was at 1152.
The ladder does not move back in time at the sun end, only its image as a result in the delay caused by the speed of light.

A great answer Colin and showing space-time curvature , an answer that one anticipated, you would not see the ladder to be curved Colin, in reality you would not see the ''tip'' of the ladder the Sun end because of the visual contraction.

However we would see the ladder move relative to the sun like a compass needle always point the right direction.

I repeat because it is obvious no one read my post it is impossible go into the past by climbing a ladder or any of another infinity of other reasons.

I am baffled why people continue responding to this non-science?

The curvature of space is none science?

The Lorentz contractions are not science?

Time is none science?

I suggest you do not know enough about science to recognise valuable topics and ambiguous questions with more than one meaning .

added - read the anticipated curved ladder post, you would see a person at the top of the ladder in their past. They start their climb and we see them in their past,

''The farther away an object is, the longer its light takes to reach us. When you look across the room, you see something as it was a few billionths of a second ago, and when you look at the moon, you see the light that left it a little more than 1 second ago. If our star, the Sun, were to suddenly burn out, we wouldn't even know it for more than 8 minutes,because the last bit of light that left it would take that long to travel to Earth! Don't worry, though. The Sun is going to last for another 5 billion years or so! But what about all the more distant stars? It takes much longer for their light to reach us. When you look at the stars at night, you are seeing light that may have taken 20 or 30 or even a few hundred years to reach your eyes. You are looking back in time. The distances in the universe are so vast that scientists use the term "light year" to measure them. A light year is the distance light travels in one year, or 10 trillion kilometers. That's 1 followed by 13 zeros!''

http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/review/dr-marc-technology/hubble.html

« Last Edit: 03/07/2016 13:08:53 by Thebox »

#### Alan McDougall

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #15 on: 03/07/2016 13:12:04 »
I understand , it is about the position, the ladder which is now a couple moves with the Sun,
The term couple has a specific meaning in physics and it is not the one you are using.

it also moves our end in synch with the sun , we can see the ladder change angle relative to the movement of the Sun
If you think about this carefully you would realise that the ladder would appear to be curved. It would start at the earth aiming in the direction of the sun's actual position now (1200), and would appear to curve backwards towards where the sun was at 1152.
The ladder does not move back in time at the sun end, only its image as a result in the delay caused by the speed of light.

A great answer Colin and showing space-time curvature , an answer that one anticipated, you would not see the ladder to be curved Colin, in reality you would not see the ''tip'' of the ladder the Sun end because of the visual contraction.

However we would see the ladder move relative to the sun like a compass needle always point the right direction.

I repeat because it is obvious no one read my post it is impossible go into the past by climbing a ladder or any of another infinity of other reasons.

I am baffled why people continue responding to this non-science?

The curvature of space is none science?

The Lorentz contractions are not science?

Time is none science?

I suggest you do not know enough about science to recognise valuable topics and ambiguous questions with more than one meaning .

added - read the anticipated curved ladder post, you would see a person at the top of the ladder in their past. They start their climb and we see them in their past,

Climbing into the past by any means is absolutely "non-science" Period . Lorentz contractions and the curvature of space has nothing to do with "Climbing into the past"

You cannot see something that has not yet impinged onto the retina of your eyes why is that so difficult to understand?

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #16 on: 03/07/2016 13:16:20 »

Climbing into the past by any means is absolutely "non-science" Period . Lorentz contractions and the curvature of space has nothing to do with "Climbing into the past"

You cannot see something that has not yet impinged onto the retina of your eyes why is that so difficult to understand?

You are clearly talking about something we are not even talking about, what is so difficult to understand?

Obviously you can not see something until a Photon from that something has entered your eyes. You clearly have no idea of what we are discussing, all the other members discussing understand the discussion.

#### chiralSPO

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #17 on: 03/07/2016 13:45:54 »
Yes, there is a delay for the light to reach us from distant (and even close) objects. But this does not imply that they exist in the past, it just means that the information we receive from them is old. It used to take a day or two for news in Europe to get to the US--this never implied that Europe was in the past. In fact this interpretation falls apart when you consider that the delay goes both ways! I also took time for news to get to Europe from the US. Radio waves emitted from the Earth take 8 minutes to reach the sun, so someone at the end of your ladder listening to the radio would be listening to signals that had been in transit for 8 minutes, but they would also know when a solar flare had occurred 8 minutes ahead of us here on Earth--so are they in the future or past? They are in the present, but there is a delay...

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #18 on: 03/07/2016 14:05:39 »
Yes, there is a delay for the light to reach us from distant (and even close) objects. But this does not imply that they exist in the past,

I agree with this

Quote from: chiral
it just means that the information we receive from them is old. It used to take a day or two for news in Europe to get to the US--this never implied that Europe was in the past. In fact this interpretation falls apart when you consider that the delay goes both ways! I also took time for news to get to Europe from the US. Radio waves emitted from the Earth take 8 minutes to reach the sun, so someone at the end of your ladder listening to the radio would be listening to signals that had been in transit for 8 minutes, but they would also know when a solar flare had occurred 8 minutes ahead of us here on Earth--so are they in the future or past? They are in the present, but there is a delay...

The solar flare is an interesting point, I will have a think and get back to you,

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #19 on: 03/07/2016 15:40:20 »
Ok so looking at a solar flare, we 'see' the flare but what we are seeing happened 8 minutes ago, so the Earth experiences the affects of a solar flare at the same time as we ''see'' it ?

#### phyti

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #20 on: 03/07/2016 16:40:54 »
If I could freeze motion and place a huge ladder from the Earth to the Sun and then started to ascend the ladder, am I climbing into the past?
time is space with an alias.
as you approach the sun, the time difference decreases as the distance decreases.
when you arrive and stop, you share the same clock.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #21 on: 03/07/2016 18:15:01 »

when you arrive and stop, you share the same clock.

Has you approach the Sun the time it takes for the  light to reach your eyes lessens. You arrive to share the same inertial reference frame and it becomes rather relative to distance.

If I and you observe an object, and you are closer to the object than I, we will both disagree on the time we are seeing the object.

#### Alan McDougall

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##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #22 on: 04/07/2016 20:45:31 »
Ok so looking at a solar flare, we 'see' the flare but what we are seeing happened 8 minutes ago, so the Earth experiences the affects of a solar flare at the same time as we ''see'' it ?

What you say simply means both we humans and the earth(Which is the same distance from the sun) experience a flare at the same time, which is true and very obvious to any logical thinking person, namely 8 minuted for each for both the earth and a human standing on its surface., namely, namely

Why did you make such an unnecessary comment Thebox?

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: Can we climb into the past?
« Reply #22 on: 04/07/2016 20:45:31 »