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Author Topic: Cloning  (Read 11405 times)

Offline teach

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Cloning
« on: 18/02/2004 18:56:53 »
Hello, this is Anna Wells, and Beth Wright.  We are doing an international research project on cloning.  We are interested in your thoughts on human cloning; do you think it is ethical, or do you think that there should be a law banning human cloning?


 

Offline Donnah

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #1 on: 18/02/2004 21:43:44 »
It's a natural step forward for scientists.  We just need to have clear guidelines.
 

Offline Quantumcat

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #2 on: 19/02/2004 10:49:29 »
As long as the laws are set down now to stop the bad side affects of cloning, and clear goals are established so scientists know exactly what their aiming for, then I say go for it.

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Offline MissMontana

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #3 on: 19/02/2004 21:54:27 »
Playing devils advocate here but isn't there a danger that cloning will become just a nicer name for eugenics?
 

Offline Exodus

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #4 on: 19/02/2004 22:29:08 »
quote:
Originally posted by MissMontana

Playing devils advocate here but isn't there a danger that cloning will become just a nicer name for eugenics?



Miss Montana, are you some kind of beauty queen or something... was thinking along the lines of


Or are we looking at...



;):DLOL:)

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Offline MissMontana

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #5 on: 19/02/2004 22:59:04 »
PMP

Because of the name or the comment?
 

Offline Ylide

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #6 on: 19/02/2004 23:03:38 »
Exodus:  That's just wrong, man.  

As far as human cloning goes, I have mixed feelings.  Genetic diversity  and mutations are the cornerstone of evolution.  If you take away the randomness of gamete formation and eliminate mutations, you're essentially halting the progress of evolution.  To advance as a race (or into a new race) you're then going to need to take it upon yourself to decide which traits are advantageous and which are not.  You then find yourself in a dystopian scenario like in Brave New World or Gattaca.  

However, certain cloning-related technologies such as being able to replicate genetically identical organs for transplant has great potential for use in healthcare.  Cloning as a manner of reproduction opens a can of worms that I don't think we're socially mature enough as a race to handle.  



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Offline Exodus

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #7 on: 19/02/2004 23:05:18 »
PMP- i dont understand what that means... Nah just the name... its like when you have Miss America competitions you have a Miss Florida or Miss Montana etc... was just playing around. ;)

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Offline Exodus

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #8 on: 19/02/2004 23:06:32 »
quote:
Originally posted by cannabinoid

Exodus:  That's just wrong, man.  

As far as human cloning goes, I have mixed feelings.  Genetic diversity  and mutations are the cornerstone of evolution.  If you take away the randomness of gamete formation and eliminate mutations, you're essentially halting the progress of evolution.  To advance as a race (or into a new race) you're then going to need to take it upon yourself to decide which traits are advantageous and which are not.  You then find yourself in a dystopian scenario like in Brave New World or Gattaca.  

However, certain cloning-related technologies such as being able to replicate genetically identical organs for transplant has great potential for use in healthcare.  Cloning as a manner of reproduction opens a can of worms that I don't think we're socially mature enough as a race to handle.  



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Offline MissMontana

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #9 on: 19/02/2004 23:15:00 »
Peeing my pants or laughing quite intensely

Montana because my name is Toni, Miss because I'm not a bloke
 

Offline Exodus

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #10 on: 19/02/2004 23:18:20 »
quote:
Originally posted by MissMontana

Peeing my pants or laughing quite intensely

Montana because my name is Toni, Miss because I'm not a bloke



phew!! thought i'd done some upsetting there! well its damn good to meet you toni. I have not been on here for a few months due to University work, but its nice to be back!

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Offline MissMontana

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #11 on: 19/02/2004 23:25:39 »
Nah, no upsetting, they were tears of laughter honest
 

Offline roberth

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #12 on: 19/02/2004 23:42:14 »
Anyway Richard, I thought I asked you to keep those pictures of my sisters private.
 

Offline genegenie

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #13 on: 20/02/2004 02:02:32 »
I have mixed feelings teach. We are products of our genetic make-up BUT environmental influences also have such a huge impact. As a standard practice, I'm against it, for similar reasons as cannabinoid gave relating to genetic diversity and evolution. However, there may be certain situations....????

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Offline bezoar

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #14 on: 20/02/2004 02:12:21 »
But if we clone, and what with apoptosis, won't the clone die sooner?  And let me open up a real can of worms -- will it have a soul?
 

Offline genegenie

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #15 on: 20/02/2004 09:53:41 »
I know that there have been problems with telomere shortening, triggering early apoptosis. I'm not sure if it's been overcome yet. Bezoar, I'm not totally convinced of the presence of a 'soul' (well certainly not in the Christian sense) but assuming we all have a soul, then I'm sure that identical twins (both having an identical genetic makeup) would each possess individual souls. A clone shouldn't be 'soul-less'.

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Offline Acrinimiril

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #16 on: 20/02/2004 20:02:12 »
quote:
Originally posted by bezoar

But if we clone, and what with apoptosis, won't the clone die sooner?  And let me open up a real can of worms -- will it have a soul?



 
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was thought to have replied "Yeah, I'd say he rushed you."

Did you know that RNA is only passed along the female side since protozoa such as sperm carry only DNA?  The Egg is a complete, if sterile, cell.  But it carries memory that sperm cannot.
 

Offline Acrinimiril

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #17 on: 20/02/2004 20:14:07 »

 
PS.  That was NOT troll bait or a flame.
It just p!$$e$ me off.

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Offline bezoar

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #18 on: 20/02/2004 23:20:22 »
I like the Bill Hicks line.  I can think of a few people I'll use it on soon.  Thanks.

And as far as eggs carrying memory, ya think that's why women have better memories than men?
 

Offline Ylide

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #19 on: 21/02/2004 02:41:42 »
My favorite Bill Hicks quote about God:

And on the seventh day, god stepped back and said "There is my creation, perfect in every way... oh, dammit I left pot all over the place. Now they'll think I want them to smoke it... Now I have to create republicans."

I'll be all for cloning once they can replicated my body, keep it in cryostorage until I'm near death's door,then transfer my consciousness into my clone.  That would be freakin' sweet.



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Offline genegenie

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #20 on: 21/02/2004 11:22:42 »
quote:
Originally posted by bezoar

I like the Bill Hicks line.  I can think of a few people I'll use it on soon.  Thanks.

And as far as eggs carrying memory, ya think that's why women have better memories than men?



I think it's why women are better than men, period. (haha, joke fellas)

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Offline tweener

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #21 on: 22/02/2004 03:02:50 »
I just finished reading a book "The Stone Canal" by MacLeod where the technology was advanced to a point where they could completely copy a persons brain patterns, store them, make complete clones (in a couple of weeks) and transfer the brain patterns into the cloned body.  Or they could make machines that could hold the brain patterns and function just as a person would.  It was an interesting concept, though the overall book was a little flat.

Back to this topic, I feel that cloning is just simply making a copy of the DNA and growing a new body.  It does not imply that the new body will be the same person or not have a soul or any such thing.  The new person is a person in their own right and will NOT be the same as their "parent".  Their environment will be completely different in the whole of their life, so they will be a different person.  Identical twins are clones of one another, and they (usually) share as close to the same environment as is possible.  Yet, they are distinct people.

This leads me to something else I read tonight in another thread (written by Quantumcat) that a person will always make the same choice under the same circumstances.  I don't buy that.  The only way that would hold true is if the brain were in the same state when all external circumstances were the same.  This is not possible.  I think that people will react differently to an ambiguous situation because they will always be in a different "state of mind".  A clone would always have a different state of mind than their twin.

Now, given all that, I'm all for "theraputic" cloning that can help cure disease, provide a person with a transplantable organ etc.  I don't strongly favor reproductive cloning because (as Jay said) there are plenty of people.  However, some couples that cannot naturally conceive children might really benefit (at least psychologically) from a cloned offspring.

As for the evolution argument, I don't buy that.  The human population is so large, and our technology so advanced, that natural selection plays no role in our gene pool.  Evolution only really works to change a species when the species is isolated into very small groups for several generations at a time.  This has not been the case with humans for several thousand years now.

I don't think that we as a society are ready for being able to "design" our offspring.  My worst fear is that everyone would want the same traits and thus we would end up more homogeneous than we already are.  Just like everyone going to WalMart and getting the same one or two choices for any product.

Wow, I guess I got started on that one huh?


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Offline Ylide

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #22 on: 22/02/2004 04:55:22 »
John, is it really cloning if both parents contribute genetic material to the child?  It's more like artificial insemination meets testtube baby at that point.  Formally, a clone is a genetic duplicate of the parent...a child made via an artificial genetic cross would be genetically distinct.  

To address your other point, your experiences and environment dictate your behvior far more than your genetics do.  You may be genetically predisposed to certain behavior (XYY males, homosexuals, etc) but a good deal of your mental development comes during childhood.  You will develop within the parameters of what your genetics allow for, (a downes syndrome kid isn't going to be doing any higher mathematics) but for a normal person, that's a VERY broad range.  

A normal (i.e. not retarded, not genius) can vary from impulsive, uneducated to refined, wise, and intelligent, to street-smart, fast-talking, and crafty.  It's all in the way you're raised and what things happen to you during impressionable years.  Things like illness, poor parental support, even social ostracization can inhibit mental development of a person during childhood years.  

I also agree with you that natural selection no longer plays a role in our society.  When morons hurt themselves doing things like jump onto 20 foot railings on a skateboard, smoking copious amounts of methamphetamine, or driving drunk and still survive because of the emergency medical support they receive from others, we are DEFINATELY not weeding out the unfit.  In fact, our society is oddly configured in that those who SHOULD be progenators of most of the offspring (the more educated and less violent members of society) are the ones spewing out the fewest kids.  



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Offline tweener

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #23 on: 23/02/2004 04:00:40 »
Jay,
If you are taking my statement "Identical twins are clones of one another,..." to mean that they are not clones, you're right.  What I meant is that they share identical DNA, just like a clone.  Neither one is really a clone because both parents contributed DNA, but compared with each other they are as close to a clone as we can get right now.

I was kind of rambling.


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Offline Ylide

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Re: Cloning
« Reply #24 on: 23/02/2004 07:11:09 »
No, I was referring to your statement:

"However, some couples that cannot naturally conceive children might really benefit (at least psychologically) from a cloned offspring."

It's not really cloning if each parent contributes one set of chromosomes.  It's related technology of course, but not really cloning in the formal sense.



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Re: Cloning
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