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Author Topic: Do Photons exist?  (Read 2699 times)

Offline Thebox

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Do Photons exist?
« on: 10/07/2016 08:50:43 »
There is a lot of science that is based around the Photon, does the Photon exist?



 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #1 on: 10/07/2016 22:37:39 »
Yes.
Until it is detected.
Then it ceases to exist.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #2 on: 10/07/2016 23:28:49 »
There is a lot of science that is based around the Photon, does the Photon exist?
Consider the solar cell that produces electricity from the absorption of the photons energy. As evan_au has mentioned, the photon exists as a wave/particle until the solar cell absorbs it's energy. When this transformation occurs, the photon ceases to exit and electricity, "the flow of electrons" is produced. How else would science explain, or for that matter, any reasonable individual, the proven function of solar electricity?

The photon is the electromagnetic force carrier and we can produce energy from it because of that fact. YES, the photon exists!
« Last Edit: 10/07/2016 23:33:50 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #3 on: 11/07/2016 06:56:10 »
There is a lot of science that is based around the Photon, does the Photon exist?
Consider the solar cell that produces electricity from the absorption of the photons energy. As evan_au has mentioned, the photon exists as a wave/particle until the solar cell absorbs it's energy. When this transformation occurs, the photon ceases to exit and electricity, "the flow of electrons" is produced. How else would science explain, or for that matter, any reasonable individual, the proven function of solar electricity?

The photon is the electromagnetic force carrier and we can produce energy from it because of that fact. YES, the photon exists!


Well I personally think Newtonian mechanics of light were correct in the form of a wave, solar energy created by the wave of light and the ''capture'' of light.   The ''tip'' of the wave being mistaken for a Photon in thinking.

I personally have found no proof of a Photon's existence, can you please point me to something concrete in the form of proof?

 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #4 on: 11/07/2016 06:58:13 »
Yes.
Until it is detected.
Then it ceases to exist.

Ceases to exist or is converted? a ''convertual'' polymorphic substance?
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #5 on: 11/07/2016 07:13:27 »
Quote from: Thebox
Well I personally think Newtonian mechanics of light were correct in the form of a wave, solar energy created by the wave of light and the ''capture'' of light.   The ''tip'' of the wave being mistaken for a Photon in thinking.
Photons have the same property that all other particles have, i.e. they have what's called a wave-particle duality. Sometimes light behaves as if it's composed of particles and sometimes it behaves like a wave.

Quote from: Thebox
I personally have found no proof of a Photon's existence, can you please point me to something concrete in the form of proof?
Once again you create a thread asking a question so that you can claim that the converse is true. Why do you keep doing this?

And you're also making the mistake of thinking that the concept of proof belongs in science, which it doesn't. Physics works by finding evidence where evidence is information or observations which are consistent with a theory or hypothesis. The more evidence of varying types the more convincing the hypothesis is. And there is plenty of evidence that photons exist. The photo electric effect and Compton scattering are two of the most convincing experiments for the existence of photons.
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #6 on: 11/07/2016 09:47:05 »
Once again you create a thread asking a question so that you can claim that the converse is true. Why do you keep doing this?
Because he wants to discuss new theories in the main section. This is against forum policy, is troll like behaviour, and could lead to him being barred from this section.

Ceases to exist or is converted?
Ok, I'll take this at face value.
Yes, ceases to exist. The energy is converted, but the light/photon no longer exists.

a 'conventual'' polymorphic substance?
No, open up a new theories thread to discuss this.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #7 on: 11/07/2016 13:32:24 »

a 'conventual'' polymorphic substance?
No, open up a new theories thread to discuss this.
I agree Colin2B, and with PmbPhy as well. If Mr. Box continues with this devious and dishonest behavior, more effective measures, above and beyond friendly suggestions should be taken. A word to the wise should be sufficient...........................
« Last Edit: 11/07/2016 16:40:48 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #8 on: 11/07/2016 16:42:34 »
I can't believe my ears, in my post in this thread is not mentioned any new theories.  However the lynch mob I pre-warned this forum about as obviously arrived.


Not once do I mention a new theory.


I am asking a simple question, do Photons exist?

I can not see that they exist, so I ask you for proof they exist, then you reply there is evidence , evidence is proof where I am from if the evidence is solid and reliable.

I mention the Photon being converted, you tell me it just vanishes, then the Photo electrical effect is mentioned, a conversion of the light into something else, you are confusing me big time. 


So now you are telling me in short that a Photon is not converted into heat and then electricity by a solar panel. Scratch my head you are all very contradicting.




 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #9 on: 11/07/2016 16:53:10 »


 you are confusing me big time. 


Wrong Mr. Box, your confusion is self induced.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #10 on: 11/07/2016 16:54:53 »
Once again you create a thread asking a question so that you can claim that the converse is true. Why do you keep doing this?
Because he wants to discuss new theories in the main section. This is against forum policy, is troll like behaviour, and could lead to him being barred from this section.

Ceases to exist or is converted?
Ok, I'll take this at face value.
Yes, ceases to exist. The energy is converted, but the light/photon no longer exists.

a 'conventual'' polymorphic substance?
No, open up a new theories thread to discuss this.

A Photon is not a new theory and neither is discussing it, I mispelled convertual and polymorphic is the wrong word to use, I swear the defintions keep changing.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #11 on: 11/07/2016 16:56:38 »


 you are confusing me big time. 


Wrong Mr. Box, your confusion is self induced.

Dude you just keep focusing on me trying to push buttons, obvious troll .

No you are confusing me, people are confusing me, ambiguity is a problem.  You say one thing then change your minds, it is confusing.

 

 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #12 on: 11/07/2016 16:58:45 »
Let's try again with a simple question,

are photons converted into heat or other?
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #13 on: 11/07/2016 17:15:16 »
I know they can also be converted into electrons and positrons.
 
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Offline Thebox

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #14 on: 11/07/2016 17:23:58 »
I know they can also be converted into electrons and positrons.

Yes me too, they told me this before, that is why I am referring to a Photon that is ''convertual''.


Thanks IAM for being a normal person.

added - I was thinking convirtual to represent things that can be converted but can not be seen like energy converts to work, we can see the work but we cant see the energy doing the work, the energy is practically ''virtual '' but I think virtual may be an error because virtual means doesnt exist, but regards to normal vision and just looking, we do not see the invisible things.




« Last Edit: 11/07/2016 17:30:45 by Thebox »
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #15 on: 11/07/2016 18:32:03 »
I know they can also be converted into electrons and positrons.

Yes me too, they told me this before, that is why I am referring to a Photon that is ''convertual''.


Thanks IAM for being a normal person.

added - I was thinking convirtual to represent things that can be converted but can not be seen like energy converts to work, we can see the work but we cant see the energy doing the work, the energy is practically ''virtual '' but I think virtual may be an error because virtual means doesnt exist, but regards to normal vision and just looking, we do not see the invisible things.


I think the answer lies in that the unknown but known facts which indeed far outweigh those who weigh modality out of nonexistence of photons which do not lead into maybe back into the void of absolute nothingness , where in fact photos do exists even though they do not exist in their own right as sentient beings, which are both alive and dead but living in a limbo which continues forever and was the fullness of empty concrete real reality of the empty nothing something- nesses- ness, that was other the other side of the coin of real material centre total emptiness, void of photons. which in fact were protons in disguise, which in turn did not prove that that they did not exist even though the exposed lurking in the darkness just waiting to inflict terrible pain inside your eyeballs because it spoke to me in a loud deep very quiet voice, but did exist when tests had proved that it did not to exist when in fact it did exist, as a very real concrete material object both soft to touch and as hard as the hardest diamond that hurt when I touched it with my one big toe. It was so real that the elusive photon was very real but did not exist at all, it was invisible even though it was very visible before it really existed when it affected all of the non-reality dimensional nothingness in the most profound way, not possible.

This led to scientific conclusion of the great minds of science and philosophy, that is was the absolute proof that photons did exist even though Mr Box insisted that they did not exist it was not the absolute proof that in fact, photons were a myth perpetrated by evil satanic beings which are the very essence of love and hate was wrong which proved that the proof was right before scientific methods proved, the opposite that the proof was wrong, making in into the actuality of non-positive emptiness within concrete reality of nothing which should have been but it should not have been when in fact it was even though the fact proved it was, even though it absolutely was not, that it was not real, although it was proved photons to be very real and that they existed on positive side of the negative magnet. In fact, it amazed the least insightful minds and baffled the intellects of the very enlightened ones, in how could it be that was both positive and negative at many places momentarily but in just absolute confined to just one place within the set boundaries of the infinite finite cosmos.

Mr Box I hope that makes some sense?

keep it cool

Alan

Alan
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #16 on: 11/07/2016 18:39:07 »
I know they can also be converted into electrons and positrons.

Yes me too, they told me this before, that is why I am referring to a Photon that is ''convertual''.


Thanks IAM for being a normal person.

added - I was thinking convirtual to represent things that can be converted but can not be seen like energy converts to work, we can see the work but we cant see the energy doing the work, the energy is practically ''virtual '' but I think virtual may be an error because virtual means doesnt exist, but regards to normal vision and just looking, we do not see the invisible things.


I think the answer lies in that the unknown but known facts which indeed far outweigh those who weigh modality out of nonexistence of photons which do not lead into maybe back into the void of absolute nothingness , where in fact photos do exists even though they do not exist in their own right as sentient beings, which are both alive and dead but living in a limbo which continues forever and was the fullness of empty concrete real reality of the empty nothing something- nesses- ness, that was other the other side of the coin of real material centre total emptiness, void of photons. which in fact were protons in disguise, which in turn did not prove that that they did not exist even though the exposed lurking in the darkness just waiting to inflict terrible pain inside your eyeballs because it spoke to me in a loud deep very quiet voice, but did exist when tests had proved that it did not to exist when in fact it did exist, as a very real concrete material object both soft to touch and as hard as the hardest diamond that hurt when I touched it with my one big toe. It was so real that the elusive photon was very real but did not exist at all, it was invisible even though it was very visible before it really existed when it affected all of the non-reality dimensional nothingness in the most profound way, not possible.

This led to scientific conclusion of the great minds of science and philosophy, that is was the absolute proof that photons did exist even though Mr Box insisted that they did not exist it was not the absolute proof that in fact, photons were a myth perpetrated by evil satanic beings which are the very essence of love and hate was wrong which proved that the proof was right before scientific methods proved, the opposite that the proof was wrong, making in into the actuality of non-positive emptiness within concrete reality of nothing which should have been but it should not have been when in fact it was even though the fact proved it was, even though it absolutely was not, that it was not real, although it was proved photons to be very real and that they existed on positive side of the negative magnet. In fact, it amazed the least insightful minds and baffled the intellects of the very enlightened ones, in how could it be that was both positive and negative at many places momentarily but in just absolute confined to just one place within the set boundaries of the infinite finite cosmos.

Mr Box I hope that makes some sense?

keep it cool

Alan

Alan

Cheers Alan, I can look at your post in several ways,  2 of them being-

1. A random generation of wording by a computer program

2. An ambiguous post with helpful intent


I will go for number 2 and say thanks, yes I understood some of it .





 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #17 on: 11/07/2016 19:05:55 »
...are photons converted into heat or other?
Yes.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #18 on: 11/07/2016 19:14:42 »
...are photons converted into heat or other?
Yes.

Do Photons permeate through ''empty'' space?
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #19 on: 11/07/2016 22:39:12 »
A Photon is not a new theory and neither is discussing it
It is if you make statements such as :

The ''tip'' of the wave being mistaken for a Photon in thinking.
a ''convertual'' polymorphic substance?

OK, let's start afresh.
Firstly, try to talk plain English. Don't say convertual if you mean "it can be converted".
Secondly, as has been said many times before, physics is not about proving things. Sometimes it is about describing how something behaves in a way which allows us to predict how it will behave in the future.

As has been said above, light can be described as a wave or a particle. When we talk about it as a particle we call it a photon. A photon is the smallest 'unit' of light (a brief flash) which we think cannot be divided into smaller units.
If you imagine the filament of a light bulb. It gets hot and electrons are excited to what we call higher energy levels, when they 'fall back' to a lower level they emit a brief flash of light which we call a photon. You can think of this flash as a pulse of electromagnetism, a disturbance in the electromagnetic field. Of course, the light filament is pouring out millions of these every second.

When these pulses hit a material they can transfer their energy to another form - heat, light at a different frequency, even a transfer of momentum. The exact transfer depends on the material and the mechanism of the interaction between the light/photons. However, at that point the photon/em pulse ceases to exist.

Whether you consider the photon to be converted to, say, heat depends at what level you want to consider the interaction. At top level, yes, but when we look at the mechanism in detail we might say no. For example, photons of infra red hitting a material will cause the atoms in the material will begin to vibrate - this vibration is what we call heat. The photon (em pulse) will stop vibrating and so ceases to exist.

If you want to understand why photons are described as such then follow up some of the suggestions eg photoelectric effect.
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #20 on: 11/07/2016 22:58:14 »
Take a magnifying glass and use it to focus the light from the sun onto the back of your hand. You then may appreciate the photon better.

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!
« Last Edit: 11/07/2016 23:00:55 by jeffreyH »
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #21 on: 11/07/2016 23:13:13 »

**rambling statement removed***

Alan


Not looking to argue but please don't waste our time with stuff like this.  C'mon now...
« Last Edit: 11/07/2016 23:16:02 by IAMREALITY »
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #22 on: 11/07/2016 23:17:22 »
Take a magnifying glass and use it to focus the light from the sun onto the back of your hand. You then may appreciate the photon better.

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!

Now THAT is friggin funny lol.  Actually truly does get the point across well though, in a very direct and concise easy to understand way!
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #23 on: 12/07/2016 01:07:02 »
Take a magnifying glass and use it to focus the light from the sun onto the back of your hand. You then may appreciate the photon better.

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!

Now THAT is friggin funny lol.  Actually truly does get the point across well though, in a very direct and concise easy to understand way!

E=ouch2
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #24 on: 12/07/2016 09:59:51 »
A Photon is not a new theory and neither is discussing it
It is if you make statements such as :

The ''tip'' of the wave being mistaken for a Photon in thinking.
a ''convertual'' polymorphic substance?

OK, let's start afresh.
Firstly, try to talk plain English. Don't say convertual if you mean "it can be converted".
Secondly, as has been said many times before, physics is not about proving things. Sometimes it is about describing how something behaves in a way which allows us to predict how it will behave in the future.

As has been said above, light can be described as a wave or a particle. When we talk about it as a particle we call it a photon. A photon is the smallest 'unit' of light (a brief flash) which we think cannot be divided into smaller units.
If you imagine the filament of a light bulb. It gets hot and electrons are excited to what we call higher energy levels, when they 'fall back' to a lower level they emit a brief flash of light which we call a photon. You can think of this flash as a pulse of electromagnetism, a disturbance in the electromagnetic field. Of course, the light filament is pouring out millions of these every second.

When these pulses hit a material they can transfer their energy to another form - heat, light at a different frequency, even a transfer of momentum. The exact transfer depends on the material and the mechanism of the interaction between the light/photons. However, at that point the photon/em pulse ceases to exist.

Whether you consider the photon to be converted to, say, heat depends at what level you want to consider the interaction. At top level, yes, but when we look at the mechanism in detail we might say no. For example, photons of infra red hitting a material will cause the atoms in the material will begin to vibrate - this vibration is what we call heat. The photon (em pulse) will stop vibrating and so ceases to exist.

If you want to understand why photons are described as such then follow up some of the suggestions eg photoelectric effect.

Well Colin I have already looked at the photo electric effect and Compton scattering , both of these theories describe an interaction involving a theoretical particle Photon, however none of these theories show the existence of the particle, a wave I accept to be true, I still hold judgement on the Photon because I am objective.

In the Compton idea, the result is a wavelength, in the photo electrical effect the result is a displaced electron, neither of these show a Photon, both of these show  a wave and the idea of the Photon is based on the theoretical Photon which is yet to ''proven'' to me,

What you have provided so far I do not see how that can be classed as evidence when the Photon is hypothetical to begin with and  a bit pretense.

What else is there that is evidence please?



« Last Edit: 12/07/2016 10:02:51 by Thebox »
 

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Re: Do Photons exist?
« Reply #24 on: 12/07/2016 09:59:51 »

 

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