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Author Topic: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?  (Read 6161 times)

Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #100 on: 30/08/2016 14:36:49 »
Do you agree that A and B are both in the present if in the same inertial reference frame next to each other?
No.
An inertial frame of reference is only concerned with relative motion. You can have events in present, future and past in the same inertial reference frame.

Also, there is a problem using the term present.
Take the example of a train travelling from A to B. The passengers all agree it leaves now, at the present time and that when it arrives it is also now, the present time. However, departure and arrival are different events each with a separate position in time and space.
Using now and present in your example is leading to confusion of what are in fact separate events.

Edit: Looking further down your posts I see this

You can clearly see in this diagram that you still observe B in the present although B has moved away because the sight remains ''simultaneous'' between A and B because of the fact the timing remains constant and simultaneous, they always see each other at the same time and each others present.

If you do not agree with this , then where do you consider it is wrong?
No, I do not agree with this.

Simultaneous does not mean instantaneous.

The timing does not remain constant. The speed of light remains constant, but the distance changes therefore the timing also changes.
The light leaving one and arriving at the other are 2 separate events separated in both time and space so cannot be in each other's present.
« Last Edit: 30/08/2016 14:50:17 by Colin2B »
 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #101 on: 30/08/2016 15:58:44 »
Do you agree that A and B are both in the present if in the same inertial reference frame next to each other?
No.
An inertial frame of reference is only concerned with relative motion. You can have events in present, future and past in the same inertial reference frame.

Also, there is a problem using the term present.
Take the example of a train travelling from A to B. The passengers all agree it leaves now, at the present time and that when it arrives it is also now, the present time. However, departure and arrival are different events each with a separate position in time and space.
Using now and present in your example is leading to confusion of what are in fact separate events.

Edit: Looking further down your posts I see this

You can clearly see in this diagram that you still observe B in the present although B has moved away because the sight remains ''simultaneous'' between A and B because of the fact the timing remains constant and simultaneous, they always see each other at the same time and each others present.

If you do not agree with this , then where do you consider it is wrong?
No, I do not agree with this.

Simultaneous does not mean instantaneous.

The timing does not remain constant. The speed of light remains constant, but the distance changes therefore the timing also changes.
The light leaving one and arriving at the other are 2 separate events separated in both time and space so cannot be in each other's present.

Quite clearly you are wrong, the present is now

noun
1.
the period of time now occurring.

Quote
An inertial frame of reference is only concerned with relative motion.

And the relative motion of both A and B is velocity=0 in the opening scenario, you are clearly being intentionally obtuse and stubborn and not even considering what I am saying or avoiding what I am saying.

If you are holding an object in your hand , you are seeing this object in your time frame of reference which is your present and now , yes or no?


Quote
The timing does not remain constant. The speed of light remains constant, but the distance changes therefore the timing also changes.
The light leaving one and arriving at the other are 2 separate events separated in both time and space so cannot be in each other's present

Yes it does, the distance between two bodies is always equal in either direction . The speed of light is constant between these bodies in either direction and guess what?  It takes the exact same amount of time to travel either direction for the light being emitted or reflected.



« Last Edit: 30/08/2016 16:15:53 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #102 on: 30/08/2016 18:16:54 »
Quite clearly you are wrong, the present is now
Yes, the present is now. But you are using it to describe 2 events ( light leaving A and B, and light arriving at A and B) which are separated by time, they cannot both be now.

you are clearly being intentionally obtuse and stubborn and not even considering what I am saying or avoiding what I am saying.
No, I am carefully explaining why I think your interpretation is incorrect. You asked me to do that, you could at least respect it.

If you are holding an object in your hand , you are seeing this object in your time frame of reference which is your present and now , yes or no?
Yes, but if the object moves the time when it was at the first location and the time when it arrived at where it is now are not the same. They cannot both be the present. You are trying to say that the time light leaves A and B is now and so is the time it arrives at the opposite ends, but it takes time to travel, they cannot both be now.

the distance between two bodies is always equal in either direction .
Yes, but it is changing so the time taken for the light to travel changes.

The speed of light is constant between these bodies in either direction and guess what?  It takes the exact same amount of time to travel either direction for the light being emitted or reflected.
Yes, but that does not make the time at each end of its journey 'now'. The start and finish are separate times and events.

None of what I am saying is being obtuse or avoiding, it is just the way things are.

I can see that this is another thing you are never going to understand, and as you arn't going to believe me I'll leave you to try and convince the other forum.
 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #103 on: 30/08/2016 22:32:32 »
for  you

 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #104 on: 30/08/2016 23:24:39 »
a rocket leaves earth and travels for 1 light second at c, according to you it as not left and we see it as it were 1 second ago.

added-  you are not seeing the sun as it were 8 minutes ago, you are seeing the sun as it is, 8 minutes apart from you at c in the same time frame as you.

added - ''YOU'' are making the mistake of thinking distance is the past.


While the Photon travels from the sun to the earth, the sun  and the earth and the Photon all experience the exact same amount of time. If you contracted the length of space between the Sun and Earth , you bring the Sun into our present.  Your misinterpretation really sucks in a big way.



« Last Edit: 31/08/2016 10:14:55 by Thebox »
 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #105 on: 01/09/2016 13:02:06 »
UNDERSTAND

If you see something now in the present and it moves away from you, time and events are synchronous , at 1 light second away, you are still seeing each other now.

You are not looking into the ''past'' or the ''future'' you are observing everything in the present.


added- 2 objects in a ''void'' , no light, both objects are in the present regardless of light.
« Last Edit: 01/09/2016 13:20:04 by Thebox »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #106 on: 01/09/2016 14:01:22 »
UNDERSTAND


What you fail to UNDERSTAND is everything your eye detects is the result of a photon reaching your eye that left it's source sometime in the past. Whether 8 minutes ago, or 13.8 billion years ago from the Big Bang. Even the light reflected from the fellow standing across the street only feet away took "time" to reach your eye. So every thing you see happened in your past whether very far away or something even very near to your eye. And we've all been through this before Mr. Box but you continue to insist that the transmission of sight is instantaneous which it is not. 

So yes Mr. Box, the photon is real and it takes time to reach your eye. And without the application of the photon upon your eyeball, you would see nothing. But then of course Mr. Box, you choose to see only what you want to see anyway so you really don't need the photon do you?

Attempt some UNDERSTANDING yourself.
 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #107 on: 01/09/2016 14:54:55 »
UNDERSTAND


What you fail to UNDERSTAND is everything your eye detects is the result of a photon reaching your eye that left it's source sometime in the past. Whether 8 minutes ago, or 13.8 billion years ago from the Big Bang. Even the light reflected from the fellow standing across the street only feet away took "time" to reach your eye. So every thing you see happened in your past whether very far away or something even very near to your eye. And we've all been through this before Mr. Box but you continue to insist that the transmission of sight is instantaneous which it is not. 

So yes Mr. Box, the photon is real and it takes time to reach your eye. And without the application of the photon upon your eyeball, you would see nothing. But then of course Mr. Box, you choose to see only what you want to see anyway so you really don't need the photon do you?

Attempt some UNDERSTANDING yourself.

Although something travels it is in the present not from the past, what you fail to understand is that things are in the present to begin with. I.e the sun is in the present while the photon travels in the present to our present, you are clearly confusing distance to be some ''magical'' form of time travel.



 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #108 on: 01/09/2016 15:54:47 »


Although something travels it is in the present not from the past, what you fail to understand is that things are in the present to begin with.
My dear Mr. Box,........when you travel to the store to buy groceries, does it take some time or do you arrive there instantaneously?

The term; "travel" carries with it the notion of movement through time Mr. Box. When you travel, you move from the present into the future. Each moment of time spent in travel changes from one moment in the present to another.

The present only lasts for a fleeting instant Mr. Box and can not define the action of travel. So,.......when you make statements like: "Although something travels it is in the present", you must realize that this "present" you keep talking about is changing from one moment to another and therefore can't remain the same "present" long enough for you to get from A to B while traveling.

It takes time to travel Mr. Box and that requires the movement through a numberless number of "NOWS". Surely you're intelligent enough to understand that it takes time to travel???????
« Last Edit: 01/09/2016 15:57:34 by Ethos_ »
 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #109 on: 01/09/2016 16:34:10 »


Although something travels it is in the present not from the past, what you fail to understand is that things are in the present to begin with.
My dear Mr. Box,........when you travel to the store to buy groceries, does it take some time or do you arrive there instantaneously?

The term; "travel" carries with it the notion of movement through time Mr. Box. When you travel, you move from the present into the future. Each moment of time spent in travel changes from one moment in the present to another.

The present only lasts for a fleeting instant Mr. Box and can not define the action of travel. So,.......when you make statements like: "Although something travels it is in the present", you must realize that this "present" you keep talking about is changing from one moment to another and therefore can't remain the same "present" long enough for you to get from A to B while traveling.

It takes time to travel Mr. Box and that requires the movement through a numberless number of "NOWS". Surely you're intelligent enough to understand that it takes time to travel???????

Of course it takes time to travel a distance, but you are not considering that your groceries exist in the ''now'' simultaneously existing with your ''now''.

When you look towards the shop, you are not seeing the future or the past, you are seeing your future path of now that leads to the same present you exist in and the groceries exist in.
 

Offline PhysBang

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #110 on: 01/09/2016 16:46:25 »
Of course it takes time to travel a distance, but you are not considering that your groceries exist in the ''now'' simultaneously existing with your ''now''.

When you look towards the shop, you are not seeing the future or the past, you are seeing your future path of now that leads to the same present you exist in and the groceries exist in.
When you look at a shop, you are looking at the past. When you look at your hand, you are looking at the past. It takes some time for the light to reach your eye; that light was emitted in the past.
 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #111 on: 01/09/2016 16:51:03 »
Of course it takes time to travel a distance, but you are not considering that your groceries exist in the ''now'' simultaneously existing with your ''now''.

When you look towards the shop, you are not seeing the future or the past, you are seeing your future path of now that leads to the same present you exist in and the groceries exist in.
When you look at a shop, you are looking at the past. When you look at your hand, you are looking at the past. It takes some time for the light to reach your eye; that light was emitted in the past.

No, because why the light is emitted and travels from the ''past'' , you still exist and the time it takes the light to reach you, you experience in the present .


Trust me ''they'' think distance means the past lmao.
 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #112 on: 01/09/2016 16:54:16 »
Start here at the beginning diagram.

In this diagram there is two objects, the free space and two objects exist in the present.
 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #113 on: 01/09/2016 17:00:55 »
Now let us play ''God''

let there be light

the objects are 1 light second apart, can you tell me what both clocks will read when both objects receive the incident ray?
 

Offline PhysBang

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #114 on: 01/09/2016 17:15:12 »
Of course it takes time to travel a distance, but you are not considering that your groceries exist in the ''now'' simultaneously existing with your ''now''.

When you look towards the shop, you are not seeing the future or the past, you are seeing your future path of now that leads to the same present you exist in and the groceries exist in.
When you look at a shop, you are looking at the past. When you look at your hand, you are looking at the past. It takes some time for the light to reach your eye; that light was emitted in the past.

No, because why the light is emitted and travels from the ''past'' , you still exist and the time it takes the light to reach you, you experience in the present .


Trust me ''they'' think distance means the past lmao.
So you are back to saying that light moves infinitely fast.
 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #115 on: 01/09/2016 17:44:40 »
Of course it takes time to travel a distance, but you are not considering that your groceries exist in the ''now'' simultaneously existing with your ''now''.

When you look towards the shop, you are not seeing the future or the past, you are seeing your future path of now that leads to the same present you exist in and the groceries exist in.
When you look at a shop, you are looking at the past. When you look at your hand, you are looking at the past. It takes some time for the light to reach your eye; that light was emitted in the past.

No, because why the light is emitted and travels from the ''past'' , you still exist and the time it takes the light to reach you, you experience in the present .


Trust me ''they'' think distance means the past lmao.
So you are back to saying that light moves infinitely fast.


I would say sight was infinitely fast for the very fact then when I extend a measuring tape , I can see the entire tape and measure at the same time, I do not see 2cm later than 1cm and so on all the way to as far as I can see.   The entire Universe I can see  is one continued picture in my mind that is all seen at the same time.

« Last Edit: 01/09/2016 17:54:47 by Thebox »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #116 on: 01/09/2016 18:10:04 »
Of course it takes time to travel a distance, but you are not considering that your groceries exist in the ''now'' simultaneously existing with your ''now''.

When you look towards the shop, you are not seeing the future or the past, you are seeing your future path of now that leads to the same present you exist in and the groceries exist in.
When you look at a shop, you are looking at the past. When you look at your hand, you are looking at the past. It takes some time for the light to reach your eye; that light was emitted in the past.

No, because why the light is emitted and travels from the ''past'' , you still exist and the time it takes the light to reach you, you experience in the present .


Trust me ''they'' think distance means the past lmao.
So you are back to saying that light moves infinitely fast.


I would say sight was infinitely fast
For sight to be infinitely fast, that would require the speed of light to also be. If you can't UNDERSTAND this, discussing the topic with you is a waste of time.
 

Offline PhysBang

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #117 on: 01/09/2016 23:26:29 »
I would say sight was infinitely fast for the very fact then when I extend a measuring tape , I can see the entire tape and measure at the same time, I do not see 2cm later than 1cm and so on all the way to as far as I can see.
a) the light from the parts of the tape do reach your eyes at different times.

b) what you "see" is created in your brain, it is not a faithful representation of the world.
 

Offline pzkpfw

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #118 on: 02/09/2016 01:32:27 »
I would say sight was infinitely fast for the very fact then when I extend a measuring tape , I can see the entire tape and measure at the same time, I do not see 2cm later than 1cm and so on all the way to as far as I can see.   The entire Universe I can see  is one continued picture in my mind that is all seen at the same time.

Given light travels 1 cm in 3.3 x 10-11 s, do you really think you could tell the difference?
 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #119 on: 02/09/2016 10:13:20 »
I would say sight was infinitely fast for the very fact then when I extend a measuring tape , I can see the entire tape and measure at the same time, I do not see 2cm later than 1cm and so on all the way to as far as I can see.   The entire Universe I can see  is one continued picture in my mind that is all seen at the same time.

Given light travels 1 cm in 3.3 x 10-11 s, do you really think you could tell the difference?

It does not make any difference if it were 1m, 1 mile, 10,000 mile, like I see my hand now I also see the sun in the same ''picture''.
 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #120 on: 02/09/2016 10:15:31 »
I would say sight was infinitely fast for the very fact then when I extend a measuring tape , I can see the entire tape and measure at the same time, I do not see 2cm later than 1cm and so on all the way to as far as I can see.
a) the light from the parts of the tape do reach your eyes at different times.

b) what you "see" is created in your brain, it is not a faithful representation of the world.


No, what I see is what I see , it is not a representation , I can clearly see distance and prove it is there, I can see shapes and prove they are there.
 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #121 on: 02/09/2016 10:17:16 »
Of course it takes time to travel a distance, but you are not considering that your groceries exist in the ''now'' simultaneously existing with your ''now''.

When you look towards the shop, you are not seeing the future or the past, you are seeing your future path of now that leads to the same present you exist in and the groceries exist in.
When you look at a shop, you are looking at the past. When you look at your hand, you are looking at the past. It takes some time for the light to reach your eye; that light was emitted in the past.

No, because why the light is emitted and travels from the ''past'' , you still exist and the time it takes the light to reach you, you experience in the present .


Trust me ''they'' think distance means the past lmao.
So you are back to saying that light moves infinitely fast.


I would say sight was infinitely fast
For sight to be infinitely fast, that would require the speed of light to also be. If you can't UNDERSTAND this, discussing the topic with you is a waste of time.

You are basing that on the education you learnt, you are not considering anything outside or other than your subjective ''box'' of education.

Think!

 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #122 on: 02/09/2016 10:51:49 »
When an aeroplane falls from the sky , generally if an object on the ground is in motion when there is a falling linearity, the falling object misses the target,

so more than obviously , a falling photon does not even reach you and ''they'' are full of it.

« Last Edit: 02/09/2016 10:57:04 by Thebox »
 

Offline PhysBang

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #123 on: 02/09/2016 14:49:30 »
When an aeroplane falls from the sky , generally if an object on the ground is in motion when there is a falling linearity, the falling object misses the target,

so more than obviously , a falling photon does not even reach you and ''they'' are full of it.
But you do agree that a falling airplane hits something, right?
 

Online Thebox

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #124 on: 02/09/2016 18:58:34 »
When an aeroplane falls from the sky , generally if an object on the ground is in motion when there is a falling linearity, the falling object misses the target,

so more than obviously , a falling photon does not even reach you and ''they'' are full of it.
But you do agree that a falling airplane hits something, right?

not necessarily, it depends which direction the aeroplane is falling and if something by chance happens to be in the way.

 

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Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #124 on: 02/09/2016 18:58:34 »

 

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