The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?  (Read 6168 times)

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3160
  • Thanked: 45 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #25 on: 21/08/2016 22:43:40 »
Repeating back the present information is not going to answer my query of that information.

A and B see each other at the same time, simultaneously, is anyone saying they don't?

It's a little awkward that you keep changing the scenarios, but yes (assuming a few things), they each see each other from 6:08:00, at 6:08:01.

(This refers to your post #5).

Yes exactly, they  both see each other at 6:08:01.    They see each other simultaneously do they not?

I've already answered. What more do you want? (I'd guess you want a simpler less precise answer, so you can extract a "gotcha". I won't give you that).

Assuming a few things, such as A and B being at rest with respect to each other, then yes they will see each other at the "same time". But of course, because of the finite speed of light, they will be seeing each other as of a little time ago, in this case, they see each other at 6:08:01, but what they see, is each other as at 6:08:00.

Quite simple.

It is not so simple, I have not finished ,

So in respect to A and B if we was to expand the length apart to  lets say 5 light seconds, would this affect A and B seeing each other simultaneously?
 

Offline pzkpfw

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #26 on: 21/08/2016 23:10:08 »
I've already answered. What more do you want? (I'd guess you want a simpler less precise answer, so you can extract a "gotcha". I won't give you that).

Assuming a few things, such as A and B being at rest with respect to each other, then yes they will see each other at the "same time". But of course, because of the finite speed of light, they will be seeing each other as of a little time ago, in this case, they see each other at 6:08:01, but what they see, is each other as at 6:08:00.

Quite simple.

It is not so simple, I have not finished ,

So in respect to A and B if we was to expand the length apart to  lets say 5 light seconds, would this affect A and B seeing each other simultaneously?

Once they stopped moving, so are at rest with regard to each other, then more or less, no. But now they'd being seeing each other as at 5 seconds ago.
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3160
  • Thanked: 45 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #27 on: 21/08/2016 23:13:25 »
I've already answered. What more do you want? (I'd guess you want a simpler less precise answer, so you can extract a "gotcha". I won't give you that).

Assuming a few things, such as A and B being at rest with respect to each other, then yes they will see each other at the "same time". But of course, because of the finite speed of light, they will be seeing each other as of a little time ago, in this case, they see each other at 6:08:01, but what they see, is each other as at 6:08:00.

Quite simple.



It is not so simple, I have not finished ,

So in respect to A and B if we was to expand the length apart to  lets say 5 light seconds, would this affect A and B seeing each other simultaneously?

Once they stopped moving, so are at rest with regard to each other, then more or less, no. But now they'd being seeing each other as at 5 seconds ago.

Ok so far , you seem to understand me.

So in respect to A and B if we expanded the distance 480 light seconds apart , would this affect them seeing each other simultaneously?
« Last Edit: 21/08/2016 23:17:16 by Thebox »
 

Offline pzkpfw

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #28 on: 22/08/2016 00:44:37 »
I've already answered. What more do you want? (I'd guess you want a simpler less precise answer, so you can extract a "gotcha". I won't give you that).

Assuming a few things, such as A and B being at rest with respect to each other, then yes they will see each other at the "same time". But of course, because of the finite speed of light, they will be seeing each other as of a little time ago, in this case, they see each other at 6:08:01, but what they see, is each other as at 6:08:00.

Quite simple.



It is not so simple, I have not finished ,

So in respect to A and B if we was to expand the length apart to  lets say 5 light seconds, would this affect A and B seeing each other simultaneously?

Once they stopped moving, so are at rest with regard to each other, then more or less, no. But now they'd being seeing each other as at 5 seconds ago.

Ok so far , you seem to understand me.

So in respect to A and B if we expanded the distance 480 light seconds apart , would this affect them seeing each other simultaneously?

Nope. (Assuming they stay at rest with respect to each other.)

e.g. if they had previously synchronised their clocks, and both waved at 10:00, they would both see each other do that thing at 10:08.

(Or, in your post #5 scenario, modified by this new criteria where A and B are also 8 light minutes apart: the sun rises at 6:00 and its rays hit them both at 6:08. They see each other at 6:16.)
« Last Edit: 22/08/2016 01:04:09 by pzkpfw »
 

Offline Ethos_

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1277
  • Thanked: 14 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #29 on: 22/08/2016 01:04:36 »


Ok so far , you seem to understand me.


Yes Mr. Box, we all understand you. The problem is that you do not understand us nor much about Relativity.

I'd recommend that you try reading up on what the "experts" have to say about this matter and try for once to accept the scientific facts without trying to invent some new and novel way of understanding reality. You will discover that your new ideas are flawed. Once you learn this, you may have a chance to begin learning the truth about these matters. If you don't, and continue to accuse everyone else of being wrong, you'll never, I repeat, NEVER advance your personal understanding any degree what-so-ever.

Enough said.................................................
 

Offline Colin2B

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1918
  • Thanked: 123 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #30 on: 22/08/2016 08:04:01 »


2 people are 8 light minutes apart. At exactly 1200 they both wave their arms once. The light from these events travels to the 2 people and at 1208 they both see the other wave their arms even though they have not waved their arms for the last 8 minutes. They are seeing now (1208) what happened in the past (1200).


, if you see me at 12.08 and I see you at 12.08 , we are seeing each other at the same time.

To answer your question in terms of simultaneous

They wave their arms simultaneously at 1200
The light travels simultaneously for 8 mins
The light from the event arrives simultaneously with each person at 1208
They see each other simultaneously at 1208 seeing each other in the past simultaneously waving their arms.
Simultaneously they wonder why the box finds this so hard to understand.

No one ever suggested that the light did not arrive simultaneously - that is arrived at different times. It left at the same time, it arrived at the same time.
None of this changes the fact that they see each other as they were 8 mins ago (1200) they do not see each other as they are now (1208).

Edit: somewhere in your description of light from the sun you said that the same photons were reflected from each person. This is not true, they are different photons. Although this is irrelevant to this discussion it important to get the facts right.

« Last Edit: 22/08/2016 08:20:47 by Colin2B »
 

Offline jeffreyH

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3923
  • Thanked: 53 times
  • The graviton sucks
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #31 on: 22/08/2016 08:37:30 »
No one ever sees an actual event but merely the photons that reflect off the object(s) in said event. These photons take a finite amount of time to reach the eye so all visual interpretation of an event is after the event has happened. Now then Thebox. This is accepted by all sensible physicists. This conversation may be terminated prematurely unless you stop playing games. Understood?
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3160
  • Thanked: 45 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #32 on: 22/08/2016 09:35:57 »
No one ever sees an actual event but merely the photons that reflect off the object(s) in said event. These photons take a finite amount of time to reach the eye so all visual interpretation of an event is after the event has happened. Now then Thebox. This is accepted by all sensible physicists. This conversation may be terminated prematurely unless you stop playing games. Understood?

So again you threaten the student with termination of post if he does not accept the information you are trying to  impose on him to be true, when the student is nowhere near finished with his query about the information?

I think we are now understanding each other and all in this thread understand the simultaneous of sight I mention.


Please all return to the very first diagram and the rocket. The rocket leaves Earth at 12:00 it arrives at the Sun at 12:08.  The observer in the towers clock is synchronised with Captain Stewart's clock. When the rocket arrives at the Sun both clocks show 12:08, both A and B experience 8 minutes between events of departure and arrival.
Are we in agreement with this?  (ignoring time dilation)






 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3160
  • Thanked: 45 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #33 on: 22/08/2016 09:41:48 »


Ok so far , you seem to understand me.


Yes Mr. Box, we all understand you. The problem is that you do not understand us nor much about Relativity.

I'd recommend that you try reading up on what the "experts" have to say about this matter and try for once to accept the scientific facts without trying to invent some new and novel way of understanding reality. You will discover that your new ideas are flawed. Once you learn this, you may have a chance to begin learning the truth about these matters. If you don't, and continue to accuse everyone else of being wrong, you'll never, I repeat, NEVER advance your personal understanding any degree what-so-ever.

Enough said.................................................

The problem is I do understand you and the  information and I  have a query that I feel shows the information to be at fault, it is called a science conversation and not called try to force discipline of the information I already know. Respect to Pz who knows how to have a conversation.
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3160
  • Thanked: 45 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #34 on: 22/08/2016 09:46:02 »
I've already answered. What more do you want? (I'd guess you want a simpler less precise answer, so you can extract a "gotcha". I won't give you that).

Assuming a few things, such as A and B being at rest with respect to each other, then yes they will see each other at the "same time". But of course, because of the finite speed of light, they will be seeing each other as of a little time ago, in this case, they see each other at 6:08:01, but what they see, is each other as at 6:08:00.

Quite simple.



It is not so simple, I have not finished ,

So in respect to A and B if we was to expand the length apart to  lets say 5 light seconds, would this affect A and B seeing each other simultaneously?

Once they stopped moving, so are at rest with regard to each other, then more or less, no. But now they'd being seeing each other as at 5 seconds ago.

Ok so far , you seem to understand me.

So in respect to A and B if we expanded the distance 480 light seconds apart , would this affect them seeing each other simultaneously?

Nope. (Assuming they stay at rest with respect to each other.)

e.g. if they had previously synchronised their clocks, and both waved at 10:00, they would both see each other do that thing at 10:08.

(Or, in your post #5 scenario, modified by this new criteria where A and B are also 8 light minutes apart: the sun rises at 6:00 and its rays hit them both at 6:08. They see each other at 6:16.)

Thank you , in short if I was on the Sun and you was on Earth we would both see each other simultaneously?

If the rocket in post 1 travelled to the Sun they would observe each other  simultaneously throughout the journey?

If the rocket leaves earth at 12 and arrives at 12:08 at the sun and the entire journey has been observed simultaneously , what time does the person on Earth see the rocket arriving at the SUN?

I revert to Colins earlier post

Quote
Finally at 1208 the rocket arrives at B and emits final flash, this flash along with the light reflected from the rocket (its image) arrives at A at 1216.

Whether you accept reality or not, this is the way it works. Live with it.


and Phyti's post

Quote
A sees (the image of) rocket arrival at 12:16. In the image the B clock reads 12:08.


This is the contradiction I mention.
« Last Edit: 22/08/2016 09:59:15 by Thebox »
 

Offline pzkpfw

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #35 on: 22/08/2016 11:10:24 »
Thank you , in short if I was on the Sun and you was on Earth we would both see each other simultaneously?

Given the scenario that we are "at rest" with each other, yes. But don't forget the delay; as consistently noted in my previous few posts and which you've not objected to. What's "simultaneous" is not our actions and the other seeing them - there's an 8 minute delay caused by the distance and the speed of light. We're seeing each other as at 8 minutes ago. So we both see each others "simultaneous 12:08 event", at the "simultaneous" time of 12:16.

If the rocket in post 1 travelled to the Sun they would observe each other  simultaneously throughout the journey?

Yes, but again, be careful about what's "simultaneous". The delay between actions at one end (rocket or Sun) and the other observer (Sun or rocket) seeing them gets smaller and smaller. It goes from 8 minutes, to zero. (Reverse for an observer who stays on Earth and watches the rocket).

a. When the rocket is a quarter of the way from Earth to Sun, events on the rocket are seen after six minutes on the Sun, and events on the Sun are seen after six minutes by the rocket.
b. When the rocket is half way from Earth to Sun, events on the rocket are seen after four minutes, at both Earth and Sun, and events on Earth and Sun are seen after four minutes by the rocket.
c. When the rocket is three quarters of the way from Earth to Sun, events on the rocket are seen after two minutes, at the Sun, and events on the Sun are seen after two minutes by the rocket.
d. When the rocket is all the way to the Sun, events on the rocket are seen immediately, at the Sun, and events on the Sun are seen immediately by the rocket.
(Well, since the rocket keeps moving, none of that is quite accurate, but close enough).
(And ... we're ignoring relativity here, the very notion of "simultaneous" doesn't really work for objects in relative motion.)

The main point is: at any given point along the path, the distance from rocket to Sun equals the distance from Sun to rocket, so each will have the same delay between event on one and the other seeing that event. That is what is "simultaneous". The delay caused by travel of light means that what is not simultaneous, is event and seeing that event.

If the rocket leaves earth at 12 and arrives at 12:08 at the sun and the entire journey has been observed simultaneously , what time does the person on Earth see the rocket arriving at the SUN?

Let's say a clock on the Sun had previously been synchronised with a clock on Earth, and the Earth observer was watching that clock as the rocket approached the Sun. They'd certainly see that when the rocket reached the Sun, it was 12:08 by that clock; but they'd not see the clock showing that 12:08 until their own clock was showing 12:16. Because it takes 8 minutes for the light showing that event to get to Earth.

That "the entire journey has been observed simultaneously" does not remove the delay caused by the speed of light. It simply means that the delay will be seen to increase, from zero minutes to eight minutes, as the rocket gets further away.

Imagine that clock on the Sun was an LED clock. When the clock changes from 12:07 to 12:08, new segments on the last digit have to light to show an "8" where it previously showed "7". Think of those segments as providing new beams of light whose "tips" have to travel to reach you.

I revert to Colins earlier post

Quote
Finally at 1208 the rocket arrives at B and emits final flash, this flash along with the light reflected from the rocket (its image) arrives at A at 1216.

Whether you accept reality or not, this is the way it works. Live with it.


and Phyti's post

Quote
A sees (the image of) rocket arrival at 12:16. In the image the B clock reads 12:08.


This is the contradiction I mention.

They are both correct, and it does not contradict what I've been writing. You keep ignoring the time it takes light to travel. It's all perfectly consistent. You need to keep in mind what is synchronous with what.

It's like you're agreeing that Apples are synchronous, but then saying that means Oranges are synchronous.
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3160
  • Thanked: 45 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #36 on: 22/08/2016 15:16:26 »
Thank you , in short if I was on the Sun and you was on Earth we would both see each other simultaneously?

Given the scenario that we are "at rest" with each other, yes. But don't forget the delay; as consistently noted in my previous few posts and which you've not objected to. What's "simultaneous" is not our actions and the other seeing them - there's an 8 minute delay caused by the distance and the speed of light. We're seeing each other as at 8 minutes ago. So we both see each others "simultaneous 12:08 event", at the "simultaneous" time of 12:16.

If the rocket in post 1 travelled to the Sun they would observe each other  simultaneously throughout the journey?

Yes, but again, be careful about what's "simultaneous". The delay between actions at one end (rocket or Sun) and the other observer (Sun or rocket) seeing them gets smaller and smaller. It goes from 8 minutes, to zero. (Reverse for an observer who stays on Earth and watches the rocket).

a. When the rocket is a quarter of the way from Earth to Sun, events on the rocket are seen after six minutes on the Sun, and events on the Sun are seen after six minutes by the rocket.
b. When the rocket is half way from Earth to Sun, events on the rocket are seen after four minutes, at both Earth and Sun, and events on Earth and Sun are seen after four minutes by the rocket.
c. When the rocket is three quarters of the way from Earth to Sun, events on the rocket are seen after two minutes, at the Sun, and events on the Sun are seen after two minutes by the rocket.
d. When the rocket is all the way to the Sun, events on the rocket are seen immediately, at the Sun, and events on the Sun are seen immediately by the rocket.
(Well, since the rocket keeps moving, none of that is quite accurate, but close enough).
(And ... we're ignoring relativity here, the very notion of "simultaneous" doesn't really work for objects in relative motion.)

The main point is: at any given point along the path, the distance from rocket to Sun equals the distance from Sun to rocket, so each will have the same delay between event on one and the other seeing that event. That is what is "simultaneous". The delay caused by travel of light means that what is not simultaneous, is event and seeing that event.

If the rocket leaves earth at 12 and arrives at 12:08 at the sun and the entire journey has been observed simultaneously , what time does the person on Earth see the rocket arriving at the SUN?

Let's say a clock on the Sun had previously been synchronised with a clock on Earth, and the Earth observer was watching that clock as the rocket approached the Sun. They'd certainly see that when the rocket reached the Sun, it was 12:08 by that clock; but they'd not see the clock showing that 12:08 until their own clock was showing 12:16. Because it takes 8 minutes for the light showing that event to get to Earth.

That "the entire journey has been observed simultaneously" does not remove the delay caused by the speed of light. It simply means that the delay will be seen to increase, from zero minutes to eight minutes, as the rocket gets further away.

Imagine that clock on the Sun was an LED clock. When the clock changes from 12:07 to 12:08, new segments on the last digit have to light to show an "8" where it previously showed "7". Think of those segments as providing new beams of light whose "tips" have to travel to reach you.

I revert to Colins earlier post

Quote
Finally at 1208 the rocket arrives at B and emits final flash, this flash along with the light reflected from the rocket (its image) arrives at A at 1216.

Whether you accept reality or not, this is the way it works. Live with it.


and Phyti's post

Quote
A sees (the image of) rocket arrival at 12:16. In the image the B clock reads 12:08.


This is the contradiction I mention.

They are both correct, and it does not contradict what I've been writing. You keep ignoring the time it takes light to travel. It's all perfectly consistent. You need to keep in mind what is synchronous with what.

It's like you're agreeing that Apples are synchronous, but then saying that means Oranges are synchronous.

I can't  believe none of you can ''see'' the contradiction. Quite clearly the fantasist ''religion'' you have all been subjected to has warped all your minds.


Again people are not, or can't be bothered  just for once ignoring the present dogma and considering why it is so wrong.

I have simply explained and all of you have agreed in the simultaneous sight yet you can't ''see'' the contradiction .


How strange.

added - OK, you can't see the contradiction that way I will change my approach.


We can see light that as not entered our eyes.




« Last Edit: 22/08/2016 15:36:54 by Thebox »
 

Offline agyejy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
  • Thanked: 22 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #37 on: 22/08/2016 15:44:19 »
We can see light that as not entered our eyes.

Demonstrably false.

But let's not get into that. You know that radio waves are the same as visible light, yes? Then according to you two way communication using radio between the Earth and the Martian rovers shouldn't have a delay.

So are NASA scientists stupid or lying just to make you look bad?
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3160
  • Thanked: 45 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #38 on: 22/08/2016 15:54:48 »
We can see light that as not entered our eyes.

Demonstrably false.

But let's not get into that. You know that radio waves are the same as visible light, yes? Then according to you two way communication using radio between the Earth and the Martian rovers shouldn't have a delay.

So are NASA scientists stupid or lying just to make you look bad?

Of course there is a delay when the signal is entering a medium and slows down, I know light travels, that is not my argument.

We can see light that  as not entered our eyes, demonstrable true.
 

Offline agyejy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
  • Thanked: 22 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #39 on: 22/08/2016 16:05:56 »
Of course there is a delay when the signal is entering a medium and slows down, I know light travels, that is not my argument.

The difference in propagation speed between vacuum and air isn't remotely enough to account for the Earth to Mars delay.

Quote
We can see light that  as not entered our eyes, demonstrable true.

Nope. That's contradictory to basically all of physics.
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3160
  • Thanked: 45 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #40 on: 22/08/2016 16:10:16 »


Nope. That's contradictory to basically all of physics.

oh, you  meant ''delay'' and not delay, that is still not my argument.


But it is not contradictory to reality.   The reality is you and I both ''see'' light in free space that as not entered your eyes, where you do not ''see'' light in free space or the lacking of light in free space , you ''see'' shadows.



 

Offline Ethos_

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1277
  • Thanked: 14 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #41 on: 22/08/2016 16:18:45 »


Nope. That's contradictory to basically all of physics.

oh, you  meant ''delay'' and not delay, that is still not my argument.


But it is not contradictory to reality.   The reality is you and I both ''see'' light in free space that as not entered your eyes, where you do not ''see'' light in free space or the lacking of light in free space , you ''see'' shadows.
Hopeless,.........................utterly hopeless!
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3160
  • Thanked: 45 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #42 on: 22/08/2016 16:20:48 »


Nope. That's contradictory to basically all of physics.

oh, you  meant ''delay'' and not delay, that is still not my argument.


But it is not contradictory to reality.   The reality is you and I both ''see'' light in free space that as not entered your eyes, where you do not ''see'' light in free space or the lacking of light in free space , you ''see'' shadows.
Hopeless,.........................utterly hopeless!

Are you saying you dont see light in free space?

You would be provable incorrect.
 

Offline agyejy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
  • Thanked: 22 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #43 on: 22/08/2016 16:38:02 »
oh, you  meant ''delay'' and not delay, that is still not my argument.

The word "delay" is in no way ambiguous and you still haven't explained why NASA thinks it takes 20 minutes before the commands they send are executed by the Mars rovers.

Quote
But it is not contradictory to reality.   The reality is you and I both ''see'' light in free space that as not entered your eyes, where you do not ''see'' light in free space or the lacking of light in free space , you ''see'' shadows.

Nope. There is this thing called the Tyndall effect that sometimes lets you see the rough outline of a beam of light but only because some sort of particle in the path of the beam of light actively bounced photons out of the beam and into your eyes.

Quote
Are you saying you dont see light in free space?

You would be provable incorrect.

Actually it is provably correct (and even that is terrible terrible grammar) that we can only see light that enters out eyes.
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3160
  • Thanked: 45 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #44 on: 22/08/2016 16:47:53 »
oh, you  meant ''delay'' and not delay, that is still not my argument.

The word "delay" is in no way ambiguous and you still haven't explained why NASA thinks it takes 20 minutes before the commands they send are executed by the Mars rovers.

Quote
But it is not contradictory to reality.   The reality is you and I both ''see'' light in free space that as not entered your eyes, where you do not ''see'' light in free space or the lacking of light in free space , you ''see'' shadows.

Nope. There is this thing called the Tyndall effect that sometimes lets you see the rough outline of a beam of light but only because some sort of particle in the path of the beam of light actively bounced photons out of the beam and into your eyes.

Quote
Are you saying you dont see light in free space?

You would be provable incorrect.

Actually it is provably correct (and even that is terrible terrible grammar) that we can only see light that enters out eyes.

Nasa and the rover and the one way command is nothing to do with seeing simultaneously, the carrier wave has to travel , I know light travels.

No! it  is easy to prove we see light that does not or has not entered our eyes. Just because you think you can only see 400nm-700nm you are not considering that you see the entirety of invisible light in free space. White light that as not entered your eyes.  You are not considering that a shadow is in its exact geometrical position relative to the sun or source and can be measured a distance away from ourselves, and most of all you are not considering that all shadows at a distance have a ''white'' light ''enclosure'' that we can clearly see.


p.s the rover is in the present and the transmitter is in the present, they both ''age'' the same while waiting for the carrier signal to arrive .
« Last Edit: 22/08/2016 16:53:08 by Thebox »
 

Offline agyejy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
  • Thanked: 22 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #45 on: 22/08/2016 17:32:54 »
Nasa and the rover and the one way command is nothing to do with seeing simultaneously, the carrier wave has to travel , I know light travels.

Ok let's put it this way. Say before the rocket leaves for the sun we give someone on the rocket 3 signs. On each sign is a different command to perform an action. One sign says jump up and down, another sign says wave your hands and the third sign says spin around. We tell the person on the rocket that as soon as they arrive at the sun they should randomly choose one of the three signs to hold up and we back on Earth will do whatever the sign says. Assuming the rocket leaves at 12:00 pm and magically travels at the speed of light and magically stops instantly at the sun what time does it say on our clock when we know which sign was held up and what time does it say on the rocket person's clock when he/she knows if we kept our word to do what the sign said?

Quote
No! it  is easy to prove we see light that does not or has not entered our eyes. Just because you think you can only see 400nm-700nm you are not considering that you see the entirety of invisible light in free space. White light that as not entered your eyes.  You are not considering that a shadow is in its exact geometrical position relative to the sun or source and can be measured a distance away from ourselves, and most of all you are not considering that all shadows at a distance have a ''white'' light ''enclosure'' that we can clearly see.

Well you've conclusively proven that you lack the ability to reason in any fashion that might be vaguely considered logic. That or you're doing this on purpose for laughs.

Quote
p.s the rover is in the present and the transmitter is in the present, they both ''age'' the same while waiting for the carrier signal to arrive .

Irrelevant.
 

Offline Colin2B

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1918
  • Thanked: 123 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #46 on: 22/08/2016 23:47:01 »
what time does it say on our clock when we know which sign was held up and what time does it say on the rocket person's clock when he/she knows if we kept our word to do what the sign said?
Excellent question, but I doubt you will get an answer.

 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3160
  • Thanked: 45 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #47 on: 23/08/2016 09:43:31 »
Nasa and the rover and the one way command is nothing to do with seeing simultaneously, the carrier wave has to travel , I know light travels.

Ok let's put it this way. Say before the rocket leaves for the sun we give someone on the rocket 3 signs. On each sign is a different command to perform an action. One sign says jump up and down, another sign says wave your hands and the third sign says spin around. We tell the person on the rocket that as soon as they arrive at the sun they should randomly choose one of the three signs to hold up and we back on Earth will do whatever the sign says. Assuming the rocket leaves at 12:00 pm and magically travels at the speed of light and magically stops instantly at the sun what time does it say on our clock when we know which sign was held up and what time does it say on the rocket person's clock when he/she knows if we kept our word to do what the sign said?

Quote
No! it  is easy to prove we see light that does not or has not entered our eyes. Just because you think you can only see 400nm-700nm you are not considering that you see the entirety of invisible light in free space. White light that as not entered your eyes.  You are not considering that a shadow is in its exact geometrical position relative to the sun or source and can be measured a distance away from ourselves, and most of all you are not considering that all shadows at a distance have a ''white'' light ''enclosure'' that we can clearly see.

Well you've conclusively proven that you lack the ability to reason in any fashion that might be vaguely considered logic. That or you're doing this on purpose for laughs.

Quote
p.s the rover is in the present and the transmitter is in the present, they both ''age'' the same while waiting for the carrier signal to arrive .

Irrelevant.

12.08

The sign travels with the rocket like time travels with  the rocket and the free space is not opaque .

Your mistake is you are getting to the sun then for some reasoning calculating a return trip , which  is giving you 12.16 ,


refer to earlier posts in the thread when we talk about the simultaneous.

Consider at the half way stage the rocket has travelled 4 minutes, it takes 4 minutes to light to enter your eyes, as the rocket starts to move from point 0, you see it all the way. The tower see's you simultaneously. Both the rocket and the tower observe 8 minutes. not 16 mins

p.s there is certainly some quantum weirdness going on here, refer back to I think it was Colin's post, the observer on the Sun would see the rocket leaving and arriving at the same time.

« Last Edit: 23/08/2016 12:22:17 by Thebox »
 

Offline pzkpfw

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Thanked: 2 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #48 on: 23/08/2016 12:32:01 »
12.08

The sign travels with the rocket like time travels with  the rocket and the free space is not opaque .

Your mistake is you are getting to the sun then for some reasoning calculating a return trip , which  is giving you 12.16 , ...

Don't be silly, or deliberately obtuse. You know that it's because everyone but you knows it takes time for light to travel.

... refer to earlier posts in the thread when we talk about the simultaneous. ...

You seem to be deliberately misinterpreting those posts. They've all been very clear about what's simultaneous and what's not.

... Consider at the half way stage the rocket has travelled 4 minutes, it takes 4 minutes to light to enter your eyes, as the rocket starts to move from point 0, you see it all the way. The tower see's you simultaneously. Both the rocket and the tower observe 8 minutes. not 16 mins

You are still relying on images travelling instantly, which you have not shown to occur; and you are misapplying the concept of what is simultaneous with what.

In the real World, light takes time to travel. At your half way stage, a person on Earth could wave and a person on the rocket could simultaneously wave. Light showing that event would then begin to travel. Light that already left Earth and already left the rocket, couldn't show the events as they hadn't occurred yet.

That light then would take four minutes to travel to the other observer. So the person on Earth and the person in the rocket might simultaneously see each other wave, but they'd be seeing it 4 minutes after it occurred. i.e. both wave simultaneously at 4 minutes, see each other wave at 8 minutes. (And, of course, rocket arrival at the Sun, at 8 minutes, seen on Earth 8 minutes later).

Yes - I used the word "simultaneous" above - but what is simultaneous is not the waving and the seeing of the waving.

You can write more post until your fingers fall off, but if you want to argue this away, what you need to show is that somehow things can be seen instantly across large distances. Your comment "as the rocket starts to move from point 0, you see it all the way" does not being to come close to an explanation. All it means is that the delay starts at zero, and will get larger as the distance increases.
« Last Edit: 23/08/2016 12:35:36 by pzkpfw »
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3160
  • Thanked: 45 times
    • View Profile
Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #49 on: 23/08/2016 12:57:40 »
12.08

The sign travels with the rocket like time travels with  the rocket and the free space is not opaque .

Your mistake is you are getting to the sun then for some reasoning calculating a return trip , which  is giving you 12.16 , ...

Don't be silly, or deliberately obtuse. You know that it's because everyone but you knows it takes time for light to travel.

... refer to earlier posts in the thread when we talk about the simultaneous. ...

You seem to be deliberately misinterpreting those posts. They've all been very clear about what's simultaneous and what's not.

... Consider at the half way stage the rocket has travelled 4 minutes, it takes 4 minutes to light to enter your eyes, as the rocket starts to move from point 0, you see it all the way. The tower see's you simultaneously. Both the rocket and the tower observe 8 minutes. not 16 mins

You are still relying on images travelling instantly, which you have not shown to occur; and you are misapplying the concept of what is simultaneous with what.

In the real World, light takes time to travel. At your half way stage, a person on Earth could wave and a person on the rocket could simultaneously wave. Light showing that event would then begin to travel. Light that already left Earth and already left the rocket, couldn't show the events as they hadn't occurred yet.

That light then would take four minutes to travel to the other observer. So the person on Earth and the person in the rocket might simultaneously see each other wave, but they'd be seeing it 4 minutes after it occurred. i.e. both wave simultaneously at 4 minutes, see each other wave at 8 minutes. (And, of course, rocket arrival at the Sun, at 8 minutes, seen on Earth 8 minutes later).

Yes - I used the word "simultaneous" above - but what is simultaneous is not the waving and the seeing of the waving.

You can write more post until your fingers fall off, but if you want to argue this away, what you need to show is that somehow things can be seen instantly across large distances. Your comment "as the rocket starts to move from point 0, you see it all the way" does not being to come close to an explanation. All it means is that the delay starts at zero, and will get larger as the distance increases.

Seriously Pz I understand what you have said, but you are still wrong , I am not relying on the ''pictures'' arriving instantly in my scenario.  I did my scenario using Photons and c, you are failing to ''see'' objectively the problem.


Let us take this slow one step at a time.


You are on the rocket at rest relative to me in the control tower.

Our clocks are synchronous.

The light travelling from me to you and you to me allow synchronous sight of each.

I observe your clock says 12am

you observe my clock says 12am

You then blast off at any velocity and travel for 30 minutes on my clock, your clock also travels for 30 minutes and shows the exact same time as my clock.

12:30am

Throughout the entire 30 minutes I can see you and you can see me simultaneously.

You do not see me at 12:30am as I were at 12:15am because that would mean I was only half the distance travelled .

Do you agree thus far?

« Last Edit: 23/08/2016 13:06:51 by Thebox »
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #49 on: 23/08/2016 12:57:40 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums