# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?  (Read 6091 times)

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #50 on: 23/08/2016 15:36:23 »
Do you agree thus far?
No

Excellent question, but I doubt you will get an answer.
LOL, I should have said "..a correct answer"

This thread is becoming pointless as your logic is flawed and you will never see it.

However, you assured me at the beginning of this thread that you had a specific question you wished to discuss and were not going to try and introduce a new theory and I gave you the benefit of the doubt. This is most definitely a new theory (that is a theory that has not yet been published), although most would class it as it can't be true.
As you seem unable to abide by forum usage policy we will help you, while you decide whether you will do so in future.
Untill further notice you are banned from posting in the following sections:
General Science
Non Life Sciences
Life Sciences
The moderator board will discuss when or if this will be lifted.

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#### pzkpfw

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #51 on: 23/08/2016 19:53:45 »
Seriously Pz I understand what you have said, but you are still wrong , I am not relying on the ''pictures'' arriving instantly in my scenario.  I did my scenario using Photons and c, you are failing to ''see'' objectively the problem.

Let us take this slow one step at a time.

You are on the rocket at rest relative to me in the control tower.

Our clocks are synchronous.

The light travelling from me to you and you to me allow synchronous sight of each.

I observe your clock says 12am

you observe my clock says 12am

You then blast off at any velocity and travel for 30 minutes on my clock, your clock also travels for 30 minutes and shows the exact same time as my clock.

12:30am

Throughout the entire 30 minutes I can see you and you can see me simultaneously.

You do not see me at 12:30am as I were at 12:15am because that would mean I was only half the distance travelled .

Do you agree thus far?

Absolutely not. After those 30 minutes, there's a distance between the control tower and the rocket. That means anything on the rocket will be seen by the control tower after some delay, and vice versa, and that includes images of their clocks. Exactly how much delay, will depend on the distance. Specifically, even if their clocks were somehow still synchronous, they'd not be seeing the same time on their own clock and the other clock.

You have given zero reason to think otherwise. Merely keeping an unending watch on each other does not magically cause light to travel instantly, and light is how we see.

(And again a disclaimer in case someone stumbles on this and gets led astray, we're definitely ignoring relativity in all this.)
« Last Edit: 24/08/2016 22:54:59 by pzkpfw »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #52 on: 27/08/2016 08:01:25 »
I see you now like I sore you now back then.

P.s I was not going to post again, and one day you will realise I am correct and you are really going want to speak to me then, but you know what?  ''your'' arrogance's are now going to cost you lots and lots of money when you want to speak to me.
« Last Edit: 27/08/2016 08:08:14 by Thebox »

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #53 on: 27/08/2016 09:19:21 »
....going to cost you lots and lots of money when you want to speak to me.
So, thinking of becoming a lady of the streets eh?

Welcome back, knew you couldn't keep away.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #54 on: 27/08/2016 13:40:22 »
....going to cost you lots and lots of money when you want to speak to me.
So, thinking of becoming a lady of the streets eh?

Welcome back, knew you couldn't keep away.

I can't keep away because I know I am correct.

https://theoristexplains.wordpress.com/2016/08/27/stop-telling-me-i-am-wrong/

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #55 on: 27/08/2016 14:54:30 »
This link shows much greater understanding than before.
So, go back to the original question and reread the replies up to about #5. Why do you think those replies are wrong, read them very carefully before you reply.

#### Ethos_

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #56 on: 27/08/2016 17:43:34 »
....going to cost you lots and lots of money when you want to speak to me.
So, thinking of becoming a lady of the streets eh?

Welcome back, knew you couldn't keep away.

I can't keep away because I know I am correct.

https://theoristexplains.wordpress.com/2016/08/27/stop-telling-me-i-am-wrong/
First principle: "Never fool yourself, because you are the easiest one to fool."

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #57 on: 27/08/2016 21:52:55 »
....going to cost you lots and lots of money when you want to speak to me.
So, thinking of becoming a lady of the streets eh?

Welcome back, knew you couldn't keep away.

I can't keep away because I know I am correct.

https://theoristexplains.wordpress.com/2016/08/27/stop-telling-me-i-am-wrong/
First principle: "Never fool yourself, because you are the easiest one to fool."

One can only be fooled by imagination, one can not be fooled by logical process and objective thoughts.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #58 on: 27/08/2016 22:03:34 »
This link shows much greater understanding than before.
So, go back to the original question and reread the replies up to about #5. Why do you think those replies are wrong, read them very carefully before you reply.

I do not need to re-read those replies or think hard why those replies are ''wrong'' Colin, the reason those replies are ''wrong'' Colin is because  the very reason I already understand those replies .  I have always understood it and this is what people fail to understand.
The thinking is incomplete Colin, it is wrong because of incompleteness.
Your initial thinking is correct but then if you extend the thinking the initial becomes incorrect.  I am not making this up, I am using ''your'' speed of light , I did not invent anything or create anything new to explain where the initial thinking is in error when we extend the thinking.
Yes you would see the Sun as it were 8 minutes ago if the only event to consider was the Photons travelling from the Sun.  However when we consider the other events involved there is seemingly contradiction.

Was there anything  specific in the first post replies you would like me to address?

#### pzkpfw

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #59 on: 27/08/2016 22:58:33 »
My underline:

... Your initial thinking is correct but then if you extend the thinking the initial becomes incorrect.  I am not making this up, I am using ''your'' speed of light , I did not invent anything or create anything new to explain where the initial thinking is in error when we extend the thinking.
Yes you would see the Sun as it were 8 minutes ago if the only event to consider was the Photons travelling from the Sun.  However when we consider the other events involved there is seemingly contradiction.
...

What contradiction? What other events? What possible thing allows light to take 8 minutes to travel from the Sun, yet allows the viewer to see things at the same as they occur at that distance?

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #60 on: 27/08/2016 23:00:34 »
.
Was there anything  specific in the first post replies you would like me to address?

Yes. In this one show the timings which you would consider correct
Let the rocket send out a flash of light every minute.
It leaves at 1200 and sends its first flash at 1201 which takes another 1min to travel back to A arriving at 1202.
Similarly the flash at 1202 arrives at A 1204
1203 at 1206
1204 at 1208
1205 at 1210
1206 at 1212
1207 at 1214
Finally at 1208 the rocket arrives at B and emits final flash, this flash along with the light reflected from the rocket (its image) arrives at A at 1216.

Say before the rocket leaves for the sun we give someone on the rocket 3 signs. On each sign is a different command to perform an action. One sign says jump up and down, another sign says wave your hands and the third sign says spin around. We tell the person on the rocket that as soon as they arrive at the sun they should randomly choose one of the three signs to hold up and we back on Earth will do whatever the sign says. Assuming the rocket leaves at 12:00 pm and magically travels at the speed of light and magically stops instantly at the sun what time does it say on our clock when we know which sign was held up and what time does it say on the rocket person's clock when he/she knows if we kept our word to do what the sign said?

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #61 on: 27/08/2016 23:10:14 »

Let the rocket send out a flash of light every minute.
It leaves at 1200 and sends its first flash at 1201 which takes another 1min to travel back to A arriving at 1202.
Similarly the flash at 1202 arrives at A 1204
1203 at 1206
1204 at 1208
1205 at 1210
1206 at 1212
1207 at 1214
Finally at 1208 the rocket arrives at B and emits final flash, this flash along with the light reflected from the rocket (its image) arrives at A at 1216.

That would be the correct timings Colin but incomplete in events.

Quote
Say before the rocket leaves for the sun we give someone on the rocket 3 signs. On each sign is a different command to perform an action. One sign says jump up and down, another sign says wave your hands and the third sign says spin around. We tell the person on the rocket that as soon as they arrive at the sun they should randomly choose one of the three signs to hold up and we back on Earth will do whatever the sign says. Assuming the rocket leaves at 12:00 pm and magically travels at the speed of light and magically stops instantly at the sun what time does it say on our clock when we know which sign was held up and what time does it say on the rocket person's clock when he/she knows if we kept our word to do what the sign said?
A good question and an answer I do not know at this present time although not having an answer does not mean the contradiction does not exist.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #62 on: 27/08/2016 23:12:03 »
My underline:

... Your initial thinking is correct but then if you extend the thinking the initial becomes incorrect.  I am not making this up, I am using ''your'' speed of light , I did not invent anything or create anything new to explain where the initial thinking is in error when we extend the thinking.
Yes you would see the Sun as it were 8 minutes ago if the only event to consider was the Photons travelling from the Sun.  However when we consider the other events involved there is seemingly contradiction.
...

What contradiction? What other events? What possible thing allows light to take 8 minutes to travel from the Sun, yet allows the viewer to see things at the same as they occur at that distance?

edit, sorry i am tired I should answer tomorrow when I am fresh headed.
« Last Edit: 27/08/2016 23:22:16 by Thebox »

#### pzkpfw

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #63 on: 27/08/2016 23:22:14 »

I've read the link. It's gibberish. But if you think it's correct, just post it here where we can discuss it.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #64 on: 27/08/2016 23:23:01 »

I've read the link. It's gibberish. But if you think it's correct, just post it here where we can discuss it.

The amount of time it takes light to travel a distance of free space is constant because the speed of light denoted c measured in a vacuum is constant in speed  at 299 792 458 m / s. From the Sun to Earth a Photon’s journey,  the Photon  on average takes about eight minutes and twenty seconds to reach the Earth and enter your eyes, in which this a part of the sight process ,  thus allowing us to see by the Photon’s entering our eyes.

Photon’s emitted from the surface of the Sun need to travel across the vacuum of space to reach our eyes that allows us to see the Sun , we see objects similarly  by the Photons reflecting off objects that travel across free space that enter our eyes. We retain an image of the object in our minds as long as we retain a clear line of sight.

Thus ”brings” to my attention the thought and postulate of considering the events in which the present information is seemingly at error . The present information suggesting we see objects as they were in their past. In short and simple terms it is presently suggested that when you  observe the Sun at 9 a.m relative to you, you are actually seeing the Sun , an image in your brain,  that is eight minutes and twenty seconds old and that you are  seeing the Sun as it were at 8:51:40 am .  Effectively when you observe any object you are observing into the past.

However, there is an incompleteness about this and in consideration of ALL of the events and completeness, there is seemingly a contradiction, thus leading me to the discussion of the humble but yet so informative ”tube”.

Let us look through the tube,  a ”Quanta tunnel”,  I at one end of the tube and you at the other end of the tube, we will label my end of the tube (A) and we shall label your end of the tube (B), we shall also define the rest length of the tube,  defining the rest length of the tube is 299792458 m and define this as one light second of light travel between I and you in either direction the light travels.

Now let us consider the present information and how the present information conform’s in accordance with the tube. From (A) to (B), a Photon takes one second to travel the distance.  From (B) to (A) the Photon takes one second to travel the distance.

”If” we were both to release, emit or reflect  a Photon at the exact same time, both opposite points would receive the Photons at the exact same time because of the constant speed of the light.  In simple terms if we emitted a Photon each, at exactly 9:00:00 am on synchronised clocks, the individual Photons would reach us at exactly 9:00:01 am, simultaneous on both clocks. In relationship to sight , Photons enter our eyes at 9:00:01 am, but according to present information we observe each other as we were at 9:00:00 am.

However, in this scenario we both started at precisely 9:00:00 am , we both experienced one second of time pass by as the light travelled the distance from both points.  I, you and the Photon’s,  all experience the passing of time of a one second duration, while the scenario event takes place.

In this scenario it is important to consider the one second of ”darkness”, the absence of light.  The observers exist in ”darkness” and experience ”darkness” until the light arrives at the simultaneous point in time where both observers see each other simultaneously.

Thus far, this shows us that once a line of sight ”connection” is established, that sight between two observers is simultaneous by the very fact that c is constant, this also shows us that the now of your time position at the (B) end of the tube is equal to the now time position at the (A) end of the tube thus concluding we see each other as we are now and not in the past.

#### timey

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #65 on: 27/08/2016 23:25:08 »
My underline:

... Your initial thinking is correct but then if you extend the thinking the initial becomes incorrect.  I am not making this up, I am using ''your'' speed of light , I did not invent anything or create anything new to explain where the initial thinking is in error when we extend the thinking.
Yes you would see the Sun as it were 8 minutes ago if the only event to consider was the Photons travelling from the Sun.  However when we consider the other events involved there is seemingly contradiction.
...

What contradiction? What other events? What possible thing allows light to take 8 minutes to travel from the Sun, yet allows the viewer to see things at the same as they occur at that distance?

Just noticed this post.

How can you be seeing the light as it was 8 minutes ago?

That light has been red shifted away from the gravitational field of the sun, and then blue shifted into the gravitational field of the earth.

We observe light when it reaches our eye, and to reach our eye the light travels through conditions that change its frequency...

No?

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #66 on: 27/08/2016 23:36:06 »
How can you be seeing the light as it was 8 minutes ago?

That light has been red shifted away from the gravitational field of the sun, and then blue shifted into the gravitational field of the earth.

We observe light when it reaches our eye, and to reach our eye the light travels through conditions that change its frequency...

No?
In order to simplify this to the very simple question of transit times we are specifically ignoring relativistic and other effects eg redshift.
The question is when is the image of the rocket seen, not whether it has changed colour, length, etc.
Hope that clarifies.
« Last Edit: 27/08/2016 23:44:50 by Colin2B »

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#### pzkpfw

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #67 on: 27/08/2016 23:37:11 »
...
”If” we were both to release, emit or reflect  a Photon at the exact same time, both opposite points would receive the Photons at the exact same time because of the constant speed of the light.  In simple terms if we emitted a Photon each, at exactly 9:00:00 am on synchronised clocks, the individual Photons would reach us at exactly 9:00:01 am, simultaneous on both clocks. In relationship to sight , Photons enter our eyes at 9:00:01 am, but according to present information we observe each other as we were at 9:00:00 am.

However, in this scenario we both started at precisely 9:00:00 am , we both experienced one second of time pass by as the light travelled the distance from both points.  I, you and the Photon’s,  all experience the passing of time of a one second duration, while the scenario event takes place.

In this scenario it is important to consider the one second of ”darkness”, the absence of light.  The observers exist in ”darkness” and experience ”darkness” until the light arrives at the simultaneous point in time where both observers see each other simultaneously.

Thus far, this shows us that once a line of sight ”connection” is established, that sight between two observers is simultaneous by the very fact that c is constant, this also shows us that the now of your time position at the (B) end of the tube is equal to the now time position at the (A) end of the tube thus concluding we see each other as we are now and not in the past.

Yeah, this is the same old stuff. First you acknowledge that it takes a second for light to travel that 1 light second distance, so you admit the observers see each other after that 1 second delay, but then, somehow because the two observers are observing each other, somehow say that means they see each others events instantly.

It's that last step that you don't actually explain.

I agree that over your distance of 1 light second, observers at each end will see each others synchronous events at "the same time". One waves at 9:00:00 and the other waves at 9:00:00, and they'll each see the others wave "at the same time" *, but that blog post doesn't really explain how that in turn means the events are seen at the same time as they occur. One moment you agree that "Photons enter our eyes at 9:00:01 am" and the next moment you throw that away and somehow think the events are seen at 9:00:00. It makes no sense.

It's not explained at all.

(* edit: which would be 9:00:01)

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #68 on: 27/08/2016 23:40:38 »
That would be the correct timings Colin but incomplete in events.
So what are the 'complete events'
If the timings are correct, what are you claiming??

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #69 on: 27/08/2016 23:53:48 »
That would be the correct timings Colin but incomplete in events.
So what are the 'complete events'
If the timings are correct, what are you claiming??

What you have to remember Colin is I am not a scientist and it is not easy for a none scientist to explain something in science terms or something easy to  understand.
Your timings consider only a one way trip and not the simultaneous trip of the Photon travelling the opposite direction.

When I consider the one way trip from a different approach it gives me a different answer to the present answer.  I  needed to write a second part to my link, explaining the rest of the problem.

In short if we are nose to nose we see each other ''now'' do we not? the distance being negligible.

We see each at the same time both being in the present.

If you extend the distance between us we continue to see each other at the same time, the present.  If you travelled to the Sun I would still see you in the ''now'' and it would still be simultaneous sight and we would still be in the present.

« Last Edit: 27/08/2016 23:58:06 by Thebox »

#### timey

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #70 on: 27/08/2016 23:57:41 »
How can you be seeing the light as it was 8 minutes ago?

That light has been red shifted away from the gravitational field of the sun, and then blue shifted into the gravitational field of the earth.

We observe light when it reaches our eye, and to reach our eye the light travels through conditions that change its frequency...

No?
In order to simplify this to the very simple question of transit times we are specifically ignoring relativistic and other effects eg redshift.
The question is when is the image of the rocket seen, not whether it has changed colour, length, etc.
Hope that clarifies.
If an observation has changed length in transit, it will affect its transit time...

If you are dealing with a light oriented observation, I fail to see how the relativistic nature of the observation can be ignored.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #71 on: 28/08/2016 00:20:10 »
How can you be seeing the light as it was 8 minutes ago?

That light has been red shifted away from the gravitational field of the sun, and then blue shifted into the gravitational field of the earth.

We observe light when it reaches our eye, and to reach our eye the light travels through conditions that change its frequency...

No?
In order to simplify this to the very simple question of transit times we are specifically ignoring relativistic and other effects eg redshift.
The question is when is the image of the rocket seen, not whether it has changed colour, length, etc.
Hope that clarifies.
If an observation has changed length in transit, it will affect its transit time...

If you are dealing with a light oriented observation, I fail to see how the relativistic nature of the observation can be ignored.

We can ignore relativistic effects because the light experiences the same equal relative effects in either direction in the scenario.

#### timey

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #72 on: 28/08/2016 00:30:43 »
OK - I can get with that...

I haven't been following the thread.  I just noticed a post implying that we would see the light of the sun here on earth as it was 8 minutes before when it left the sun... which is not true.
« Last Edit: 28/08/2016 00:33:11 by timey »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #73 on: 28/08/2016 00:38:32 »
OK - I can get with that...

I haven't been following the thread.  I just noticed a post implying that we would see the light of the sun here on earth as it was 8 minutes before when it left the sun... which is not true.

Basically if you were to look at the Sun the image you are seeing is an approx 8 minute old image and not the actual present image and you see the sun in its past , however from a different look at the situation there is an apparent contradiction.

#### pzkpfw

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #74 on: 28/08/2016 00:40:22 »
OK - I can get with that...

I haven't been following the thread.  I just noticed a post implying that we would see the light of the sun here on earth as it was 8 minutes before when it left the sun... which is not true.

Summarised; XYZ thinks that if two people with pre-synchronised clocks, 8 light minutes apart, waved at the "same time", they'd both be seeing each other do that at the moment they waved. i.e. they'd see each other waving at the same time as they are themselves waving. Whereas everyone else says that the two people would see the other persons wave 8 minutes later. If they both waved for 1 minute, their own arm would have stopped waving (for 7 minutes) at the time they see the other persons wave.

We're ignoring all other effects, relativistic or not. In this sort of very very basic topic (light takes time to travel), it's not helpful to nitpick the minutia. This is at the "lies to children" level.
« Last Edit: 28/08/2016 00:45:29 by pzkpfw »

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##### Re: What time does the rocket arrive at point B?
« Reply #74 on: 28/08/2016 00:40:22 »