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Author Topic: Do viruses exist?  (Read 4349 times)

Offline Atkhenaken

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #25 on: 08/09/2016 17:23:44 »
chemists are also responsible for:

-all the drugs that treat heart disease, allow cancer patients to survive, prevent seizures, increased life expectancy by 50% since 1900 (and allows old men to have sex)

You forget that most of these problems are caused by modern technology. Heart attack, stroke and cancer are all caused by dairy, grain, alcohol and sugar which are products of the modern age of agriculture. People who live in primitive and remote villages in the jungle don't get any of these problems. Note - It was the agricultural revolution and city life that reduced life expectancy from 75 to 35 during the middle ages. We are only just recovering from the life expectancy depression that was commenced at the beginning of the agricultural revolution 10,000 years ago. Thus, grain, dairy and sugar are not suitable for humans and leads to 98% of all diseases.

Quote
Most of the food that you eat (fertilizers, pesticides and preservatives--sure people love to hate these things, but they also like to have fresh strawberries in February and beef for less than $20/lb)

Well, if you get contaminated with fertilizers, pesticides and preservatives, then don't expect to live very long! Personally, I try to avoid these chemicals as much as I can.


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solar panels, LEDs, touch screens, lasers, and pretty much any technology developed in the last 200 years has been enabled by chemical research

So, yes, chemists and chemicals have done terrible things, but essentially all of the wonders and luxuries of the 21st century were also made possible by chemists.

If you just do away with grain, sugar and dairy products, then, you wouldn't need as many hospitals, aged care facilities and prisons. Note: And every person on Earth would be 20% wealthier as a result.*
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #26 on: 08/09/2016 17:33:32 »
I won't deny that there are problems caused by modern technologies, but I don't think that your assessment is very accurate. More people die today of heart attack, cancer, and stroke because these are problems that typically kill old (>55 years) people. 300 years ago, most people never got that old because they died of something else first (like starvation, disease, or injury -- which, for the most part, are no longer fatal because of our technology.)

If you are so certain that "chemicals" and "processed foods" are the root of all disease, perhaps you should visit some of the isolated communities in South America, Central Africa, India, and Southeast Asia, and take note of the state of their health...
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #27 on: 08/09/2016 22:24:50 »
"You forget that most of these problems are caused by modern technology. Heart attack, stroke and cancer are all caused by dairy, grain, alcohol and sugar which are products of the modern age of agriculture. People who live in primitive and remote villages in the jungle don't get any of these problems."

Guess again.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #28 on: 08/09/2016 22:32:00 »
That idea has been dead for a long time.
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #29 on: 08/09/2016 22:54:19 »
Quote from: Atkhenaken
Quote from: evan_au
The discovery of "Mad Cow Disease" caused a fair amount of disbelief at the time - an infectious agent that has no genetic material!?

Prions are even less likely to exist than what viruses are.

Some recent research had a ship visiting oceans around the world, searching for genetic material in seawater. They weren't looking for viruses, they just wanted to sample any genetic material present in the water.

The results astonished them - there is an amazing amount of DNA floating around in seawater - and when they investigated, they found that much of it was in bacteriophage viruses.

These researchers were originally not trying to see anything - they were just looking for DNA with sensitive modern genetic techniques. And having found some DNA, it is relatively easy to consult databases and find what type of DNA it comes from.

Megavirus is another virus discovered in seawater.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megavirus#Discovery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_bacteriophage#Marine_phages
 

Offline Atkhenaken

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #30 on: 09/09/2016 01:04:56 »

If you are so certain that "chemicals" and "processed foods" are the root of all disease, perhaps you should visit some of the isolated communities in South America, Central Africa, India, and Southeast Asia, and take note of the state of their health...

The world is overpopulated because of technology and agriculture. People are forced to live in more and more remote places which don't fully support a healthy life. Their usual food sources are depleted and this creates starvation and disease.
 

Offline Atkhenaken

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #31 on: 09/09/2016 01:22:17 »
Quote from: Atkhenaken
Quote from: evan_au
The discovery of "Mad Cow Disease" caused a fair amount of disbelief at the time - an infectious agent that has no genetic material!?

Prions are even less likely to exist than what viruses are.

Some recent research had a ship visiting oceans around the world, searching for genetic material in seawater. They weren't looking for viruses, they just wanted to sample any genetic material present in the water.

The results astonished them - there is an amazing amount of DNA floating around in seawater - and when they investigated, they found that much of it was in bacteriophage viruses.

These researchers were originally not trying to see anything - they were just looking for DNA with sensitive modern genetic techniques. And having found some DNA, it is relatively easy to consult databases and find what type of DNA it comes from.

Megavirus is another virus discovered in seawater.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megavirus#Discovery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_bacteriophage#Marine_phages

Not very convincing. Viruses found INSIDE bacteria. Why didn't they find them OUTSIDE the bacteria? Probably because they don't exist outside the bacteria and are just dead parts of the bacteria in the first place. More nonsense to justify a group of nincompoop scientists to spend countless years holidaying in exotic places pretending to find non-existent viruses. My opinion - A waste of money and time.
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #32 on: 10/09/2016 02:00:42 »
Quote from: evan_au
(1) If you eat Arsenic, you will get sick.
(2) If you eat food contaminated by Norovirus, you will get sick.
If you give a mouse a dose of Arsenic, you can see that it gets sick.
If you now take a microscopic sample from the sick mouse, and give it to a healthy mouse, the second mouse displays no symptoms (or very mild symptoms). That is because the Arsenic is a poison, which does not multiply itself.

If you give a mouse a dose of moue Norovirus, you can see that it gets sick.
If you now take a microscopic sample from the sick mouse, and give it to a healthy mouse, the second mouse also gets sick. That is because the Norovirus multiplies itself in the host to become the full-blown disease.

The ability to infect others is one of the hallmarks of a disease.

These days, our most sensitive tests are DNA sequencing, and so Koch's original postulates have been reformulated in terms of DNA detection. And viral DNA is a sign of a virus.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch%27s_postulates#Koch.E2.80.99s_postulates_for_the_21st_century
 

Offline Atkhenaken

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #33 on: 10/09/2016 03:34:36 »
Quote from: evan_au
(1) If you eat Arsenic, you will get sick.
(2) If you eat food contaminated by Norovirus, you will get sick.
If you give a mouse a dose of Arsenic, you can see that it gets sick.
If you now take a microscopic sample from the sick mouse, and give it to a healthy mouse, the second mouse displays no symptoms (or very mild symptoms). That is because the Arsenic is a poison, which does not multiply itself.

If you give a mouse a dose of moue Norovirus, you can see that it gets sick.
If you now take a microscopic sample from the sick mouse, and give it to a healthy mouse, the second mouse also gets sick. That is because the Norovirus multiplies itself in the host to become the full-blown disease.



The ability to infect others is one of the hallmarks of a disease.

These days, our most sensitive tests are DNA sequencing, and so Koch's original postulates have been reformulated in terms of DNA detection. And viral DNA is a sign of a virus.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch%27s_postulates#Koch.E2.80.99s_postulates_for_the_21st_century

Koch's postulates -

1. The microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease, but should not be found in healthy organisms.
2. The microorganism must be isolated from a diseased organism and grown in pure culture.
3. The cultured microorganism should cause disease when introduced into a healthy organism.
4. The microorganism must be reisolated from the inoculated, diseased experimental host and identified as being identical to the original specific causative agent.

Research so far ...........

1. Never found in abundance in organism suffering from disease.
2. Microorganisms have never been successfully isolated and grown in a pure culture.
3. Doesn't always cause disease in a healthy organism.
4. Never has been re-isolated from the inoculated and identified from the original host.

Thus, germ theory is a fraud.


http://neue-medizin.com/lanka2.htm
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00705-013-1806-4
« Last Edit: 10/09/2016 05:12:12 by Atkhenaken »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #34 on: 11/09/2016 15:57:53 »



Do you want to protect the two hundred year old lie so that you have a nice secure job creating organophosphates that will cause more death and brain disease?

Chemists are responsible for-

1. Supporting and financing Adolf Hitler (I G Farben)

2. Murder of millions with halogen chemicals. (pesticides, fungicides and herbicides)

3. Fluoridation of water supply leading to deceased immune system efficiency and creating heart rhythm problems.

4. Creation of drug industry leading to millions of deaths due to drug overdoses.

Do you have no sense of shame?

And having the hide to blame it all on non-existent and invisible bugs!

Shame, shame shame!

http://ahealedplanet.net/medicine.htm
1 It took more than funding to get Hitler into power. You also seem not to understand that there were chemists on both sides- and neither group was responsible for starting a war.
2 Why are you worried about the pests murdered by pesticides?
3 Fluorides don't do that and the process is under the control of the medical profession- not the chemists.
4 Drugs have been around a lot=longer than chemists. The drugs that chemists have created save lives (or the patients wouldn't have access to them because they would fail the tests)


So what would I have to be ashamed of?
I sent you a picture of the bugs- they are not invisible when you get enough of them..

Perhaps you could explain the outcome of a plaque assay without resorting to a virus  as an explanation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus_quantification

Or perhaps you should go away and learn some science. Maybe then you wouldn't post gibberish like the 4 "points" you raised earlier.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #35 on: 11/09/2016 16:03:47 »

Koch's postulates -

1. The microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease, but should not be found in healthy organisms.
2. The microorganism must be isolated from a diseased organism and grown in pure culture.
3. The cultured microorganism should cause disease when introduced into a healthy organism.
4. The microorganism must be reisolated from the inoculated, diseased experimental host and identified as being identical to the original specific causative agent.

Research so far ...........

1. Never found in abundance in organism suffering from disease.
2. Microorganisms have never been successfully isolated and grown in a pure culture.
3. Doesn't always cause disease in a healthy organism.
4. Never has been re-isolated from the inoculated and identified from the original host.

Thus, germ theory is a fraud.


So, you think that the fact that things have moved on since 1890 is a bad thing.

Your view is like saying that sex doesn't cause babies because sometimes it doesn't and (allegedly, at least once) there was a baby without  the parents having sex.

It's more complicated than that. We have realised that since Koch's day- and we have updated the postulates.


 

Offline Atkhenaken

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #36 on: 12/09/2016 01:39:24 »

http://ahealedplanet.net/medicine.htm

1 It took more than funding to get Hitler into power. You also seem not to understand that there were chemists on both sides- and neither group was responsible for starting a war.

The support of I G Farben was the single most important factor in Hitler's rise to power. Note- The I G Farben building was never bombed during World War II and was used as a base by the Allies during their occupation. Reason - The Rockefeller's had a huge investment in I G Farben and they wanted to create a huge profit from causing a war so they could sell lots of drugs and chemicals.

http://beforeitsnews.com/war-and-conflict/2013/05/ig-farben-bayer-sopnsered-adolph-hitler-raign-and-was-the-biggest-profiteers-of-wwii-2446840.html

Quote
2 Why are you worried about the pests murdered by pesticides?

Sloppy thinking. Polio, Zika and BSE are all pesticide related problems.

http://www.naturalnews.com/054463_pesticides_diseases_infertility.html

Quote
4 Drugs have been around a lot=longer than chemists. The drugs that chemists have created save lives (or the patients wouldn't have access to them because they would fail the tests)

That's how the medical system works. First you make people sick and them you make them better. (for a sort period or until they get sick again)

Quote
So what would I have to be ashamed of?
I sent you a picture of the bugs- they are not invisible when you get enough of them..

You sent me a picture of a glass bottle with water in it. That's your evidence? lol! Pathetic!

Quote
Perhaps you could explain the outcome of a plaque assay without resorting to a virus  as an explanation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus_quantification

The plague assay is a fraudulent procedure. A virus needs a cell to multiply according to viral theory.

Steps in creating a petri dish medium -

1. Aspirate media and wash cells with 0.1M cacodylate buffer.

2. Fix with 4% PFA, 1% glutaraldehyde in 0.1M cacodylate for 1 h at room temp.

3. Wash cells 3x in 0.1M cacodylate.

4. Second fix in 1% osmium tetroxide in 0.1M cacodylate for 1 h at room temp.

4. Wash cells 3x dH20.

5. Gradually dehydrate in graded series of chilled ethanol for 15 min each at room temp (30%, 50%, 70%, 90%, 100% (x3 dry ethanol)).

6. Gradually infiltrate with resin at room temp. (30% overnight, 50% all day, 70% overnight, 100% all day, 100% overnight, 100% all day).

7. Invert coverslips (cell side down) onto full Beem capsules and polymerise overnight at 55 degrees Celcius.

8. Dip sample in liquid nitrogen to remove glass coverslip.

I seriously doubt any living thing could survive these processes. Thus, the final product is not living and is just dead cells which are putrefying and creating fungal growths.

« Last Edit: 12/09/2016 01:49:11 by Atkhenaken »
 

Offline Atkhenaken

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #37 on: 12/09/2016 01:46:53 »

So, you think that the fact that things have moved on since 1890 is a bad thing.

Your view is like saying that sex doesn't cause babies because sometimes it doesn't and (allegedly, at least once) there was a baby without  the parents having sex.

It's more complicated than that. We have realised that since Koch's day- and we have updated the postulates.


In other words - You haven't even started to justify his old postulates and now you are trying to create more complications and diversions so that nobody will ever find out about the terrible truth of the matter.
 

Offline RD

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #38 on: 12/09/2016 04:13:08 »
http://www.naturalnews.com ...

Quote from: RationalWiki.org
"If you cite NaturalNews on any matter whatsoever, you are almost certainly wrong."
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Natural_News

Quote from: wikipedia.org
David Gorski of ScienceBlogs, called Natural News "one of the most wretched hives of scum and quackery on the Internet," and the most "blatant purveyor of the worst kind of quackery and paranoid anti-physician and anti-medicine conspiracy theories anywhere on the Internet", and a one-stop-shop for "virtually every quackery known to humankind, all slathered with a heaping, helping of unrelenting hostility to science-based medicine and science in general."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_News#Criticism_and_controversies
 

Offline Atkhenaken

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #39 on: 12/09/2016 06:05:23 »
http://www.naturalnews.com ...

Quote from: RationalWiki.org
"If you cite NaturalNews on any matter whatsoever, you are almost certainly wrong."
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Natural_News

Quote from: wikipedia.org
David Gorski of ScienceBlogs, called Natural News "one of the most wretched hives of scum and quackery on the Internet," and the most "blatant purveyor of the worst kind of quackery and paranoid anti-physician and anti-medicine conspiracy theories anywhere on the Internet", and a one-stop-shop for "virtually every quackery known to humankind, all slathered with a heaping, helping of unrelenting hostility to science-based medicine and science in general."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_News#Criticism_and_controversies

Well, all medical practitioners are quacks; including allopathic and naturopathic. That is because good health doesn't require any medications, herbs, pills and/or other manipulations of the body etc. We have been deceived for the last 10,000 years by the agricultural revolution which introduced inappropriate foods which are the cause of 98 % of all disease. If you take away the grain, sugar, dairy and alcohol, then nobody would ever get sick. The other 2 % of disease is caused by fecal material and dangerous chemicals which may be added as food colouring, pesticides or as a preservative.

Why don't you respond to the evidence instead of creating diversions and distractions? Are YOU part of the corrupt system as well?
« Last Edit: 12/09/2016 06:09:43 by Atkhenaken »
 

Offline RD

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #40 on: 12/09/2016 09:22:37 »
... We have been deceived for the last 10,000 years by the agricultural revolution which introduced inappropriate foods which are the cause of 98 % of all disease. If you take away the grain, sugar, dairy and alcohol, then nobody would ever get sick.

Exponential-rise in human population says different ...

http://pages.vassar.edu/realarchaeology/2014/09/21/the-ethics-of-population-and-society/
 

Offline Atkhenaken

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #41 on: 12/09/2016 09:38:59 »
... We have been deceived for the last 10,000 years by the agricultural revolution which introduced inappropriate foods which are the cause of 98 % of all disease. If you take away the grain, sugar, dairy and alcohol, then nobody would ever get sick.

Exponential-rise in human population says different ...

http://pages.vassar.edu/realarchaeology/2014/09/21/the-ethics-of-population-and-society/

More people doesn't equate with quality of life. The more people you have the lower the quality of the food and the more disease. Thus, your graph doesn't prove anything.
 

Offline RD

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #42 on: 12/09/2016 19:25:23 »
More people doesn't equate with quality of life. The more people you have the lower the quality of the food and the more disease. Thus, your graph doesn't prove anything.

You claimed agriculture introduced a poisonous diet which caused "98 % of all disease".

If I had a rodent-infestation and gave them what I though was poison, but their population rose exponentially when I did that, then I've been giving them food instead of poison.

If a disease causing agent was delivered to most of a population then, (all other factors being equal), the population would decline, not rise. Also their average life expectancy would shorten.

In reality* average human life expectancy has risen, by ~50% in the last century ...


http://www.openpop.org/?p=695

* anyone who cites naturalnews as a reliable source of information is detached from reality : usually suffering from a paranoia
« Last Edit: 12/09/2016 19:40:46 by RD »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #43 on: 12/09/2016 20:21:00 »
... We have been deceived for the last 10,000 years by the agricultural revolution which introduced inappropriate foods which are the cause of 98 % of all disease. If you take away the grain, sugar, dairy and alcohol, then nobody would ever get sick.

Exponential-rise in human population says different ...

http://pages.vassar.edu/realarchaeology/2014/09/21/the-ethics-of-population-and-society/

More people doesn't equate with quality of life. The more people you have the lower the quality of the food and the more disease. Thus, your graph doesn't prove anything.

Death indicates a very poor quality of life so your statement that "More people doesn't equate with quality of life." is on very shaky ground.
But nobody asked about quality of life. They talked about disease.
And reason the population is rising is simply that (relatively) fewer people are dying. Since accidents are a rare cause of death, more people not dying must mean fewer people getting diseases (and/ or they are more likely to recover).
So the graph shows that people are not getting killed by diseases as often or as young as they used to.
That makes your your claim that "the agricultural revolution which introduced inappropriate foods which are the cause of 98 % of all disease. " impossible.

So, what that graph proves is that you are wrong. (as you have been all along).
When are you going to face up to that?

 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #44 on: 12/09/2016 21:08:10 »
It should also be noted that birth rates have fallen, so the increasing population cannot be blamed on increased reproduction--it must be due to decreased death rates.
 

Offline Atkhenaken

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #45 on: 13/09/2016 01:30:56 »
More people doesn't equate with quality of life. The more people you have the lower the quality of the food and the more disease. Thus, your graph doesn't prove anything.

You claimed agriculture introduced a poisonous diet which caused "98 % of all disease".

If I had a rodent-infestation and gave them what I though was poison, but their population rose exponentially when I did that, then I've been giving them food instead of poison.

If a disease causing agent was delivered to most of a population then, (all other factors being equal), the population would decline, not rise. Also their average life expectancy would shorten.

In reality* average human life expectancy has risen, by ~50% in the last century ...


http://www.openpop.org/?p=695

* anyone who cites naturalnews as a reliable source of information is detached from reality : usually suffering from a paranoia.


It has risen only because it has previously fallen. People are being kept alive when there diet has been killing them with cancer, diabetes and heart diseases. All these diseases are a result of poor diet which are high in grain, sugar and dairy products. Note - This post is about whether viruses exist - so I think you are getting a bit off track here.
 

Offline Atkhenaken

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #46 on: 13/09/2016 01:38:47 »

Death indicates a very poor quality of life so your statement that "More people doesn't equate with quality of life." is on very shaky ground.
But nobody asked about quality of life. They talked about disease.
And reason the population is rising is simply that (relatively) fewer people are dying. Since accidents are a rare cause of death, more people not dying must mean fewer people getting diseases (and/ or they are more likely to recover).
So the graph shows that people are not getting killed by diseases as often or as young as they used to.
That makes your your claim that "the agricultural revolution which introduced inappropriate foods which are the cause of 98 % of all disease. " impossible.

So, what that graph proves is that you are wrong. (as you have been all along).
When are you going to face up to that?


Even your own graph is working against what you are saying. The graph that you have included clearly indicates that plagues occurred only when people started to congregate in large cities. The price to pay for population growth success is a reduced life expectancy. Prior to the agricultural revolution disease would have been unknown. Disease is a result of eating inappropriate foods which cause body dysfunctions. I agree that the human populations have increased due to agriculture and machinery. But disease is the price that humans have to pay for their success.
 

Offline RD

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #47 on: 13/09/2016 08:41:23 »
The price to pay for population growth success is a reduced life expectancy ...
The last graph I posted showed ~20% increase in average life-expectancy during the last 50 years, during which the world population has more than doubled.
Yet you say "reduced life expectancy" with "population growth". Where is your data to corroborate that ?

... diet has been killing them with cancer ...
The increased incidence of cancer is due to the increased life expectancy, (as shown on my previous graph), as cancer is primarily a disease of old age ... http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/incidence/age#heading-Zero .
« Last Edit: 13/09/2016 08:53:23 by RD »
 

Offline Atkhenaken

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #48 on: 13/09/2016 15:50:49 »

Yet you say "reduced life expectancy" with "population growth". Where is your data to corroborate that ?

The graph that you have used starts just after World War II where millions of people were killed at a very young age. Thus, the low life expectancy. Why don't you use a 200 year graph which would be more useful?




... diet has been killing them with cancer ...
The increased incidence of cancer is due to the increased life expectancy, (as shown on my previous graph), as cancer is primarily a disease of old age ... http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/incidence/age#heading-Zero .
[/quote]

Cancer is not a disease of old age. Young babies can get cancer. Cancer is a disease of cell dysfunction due to an abnormal diet which causes the cancers to appear. It has multiple causes.
1. Blockages due to inflammation - grain food

2. Blockages due to glue like dairy products.

3. Reduced oxygen flow due to these blockages.

4. Lack of vitamin C which prevents the body from repairing damage to cells.

5. Lack of iodine which prevents apoptosis.

6. Lack of fibre which leads to bad gut bacteria.
 

Offline RD

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Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #49 on: 15/09/2016 00:21:14 »
... Why don't you use a 200 year graph which would be more useful? 

Why didn't you Google that graph yourself ? ...


https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy/

Cancer is not a disease of old age. Young babies can get cancer.

I never said exclusively, I said primarily old age. look at the graph below: cancer occurs at all ages, but it's incidence rises steeply with age ...


http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/incidence/age#heading-Zero

Most cancer diagnoses are in retired-people (i.e. older than 65).

Cancer is a disease of cell dysfunction due to an abnormal diet ...

And corrective "dietary supplements" are all available via NaturalNews* , at extortionate prices.
[* who have taken advantage of your paranoia and brainwashed you to buy & push their products ].

You've spent too much time down Mike's gopher hole.
« Last Edit: 15/09/2016 00:52:11 by RD »
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Do viruses exist?
« Reply #49 on: 15/09/2016 00:21:14 »

 

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