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Author Topic: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?  (Read 444 times)

Thebox

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How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« on: 19/09/2016 13:50:52 »
Although I was not going to discuss science again having left my state of delusions of grandeur, I have been thinking about light.

I turn on the light switch.

The light is pulled towards my wall at c?

Alex Siqueira

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Re: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« Reply #1 on: 22/09/2016 00:57:48 »
Assuming that one compreeends the reality from behind the question, the light does not know the wal was there, the bulb (witch is made from matter) is existing in correlation with everything including the wall, but that does not means anything, eliminate, the wall, you yourself, let only reamning light, space and the bulb... Light will away move away from the worce in straight line, every line will resonate withspace and will start to spread waves, but noneless light is occuring in any dirrection, it can be indeed stoped by the wall, but can't be affected by it, only gravity can disturb light, or perhaps being specific gravity occurs on space, space, light travels between space time, bend space will bend light, but not as a direct interaction (light-mass), mass interacts with space, space is bended, light seems to be pulled to it, but in fact all that happen is that the straight road was shaped into a curve, light is till simple train following it's trails...
That is not proof, but fact enought to consider if the speed of light was ever comming from light, as much as a bubble of gas under water is moving at X speed, the bubble never had any speed, the speed was the density of the water....

PmbPhy

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Re: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« Reply #2 on: 22/09/2016 06:56:37 »
Although I was not going to discuss science again having left my state of delusions of grandeur, I have been thinking about light.

I turn on the light switch.

The light is pulled towards my wall at c?
In no sense whatsoever can it be said that light is pulled towards anything or pushed from anything. Light is merely propagating in accordance with the laws of nature (in this case Maxwell's equation describes it all). If you were in the international space station and, inside the station, you were moving relative to the station and towards a wall. Do you see any sense in which it can be said that the wall was pulling you? Or can you see any reason why another wall was pushing you? No. A push or a pull is something which is caused by a force and no force exists,other than the gravitational force, which can push or pull light.

alancalverd

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Re: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« Reply #3 on: 22/09/2016 07:57:25 »
How does the wall know when and what to pull?

jeffreyH

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Re: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« Reply #4 on: 22/09/2016 08:41:21 »
How does the light decide on a direction of travel in the first place? When it is emitted how does the source 'push' it in a certain direction? How can the source push at the speed of light?

Thebox

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Re: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« Reply #5 on: 22/09/2016 09:18:21 »
Assuming that one compreeends the reality from behind the question, the light does not know the wal was there, the bulb (witch is made from matter) is existing in correlation with everything including the wall, but that does not means anything, eliminate, the wall, you yourself, let only reamning light, space and the bulb... Light will away move away from the worce in straight line,

Not really true, if we removed all that was in space and left just one star in a ''void'', we could only presume that light is still ''emitted'' and travels , we could only presume this because light would not  be reflected by matter and there would be nothing to observe.  Relatively the entirety of space would look dark except for the one star.  If you was an observer on the Star or in a sense an observer has the star, the dimension of the extending space would be 0 because there is nothing to reflect light to give a measurement radius.
Thus said, the space unobserved by the observer is neither dark or light, it is invisible space because evidently we can observe things in our present space thus representing light travels from A to B , often in thought as a single Photon, but, if we picture single Photons and a ''bumper'' to '''bumper'' like ''traffic'' Jam, Newtons Law's apply and that which is pushing also pushes back.

The Universe is either finite bounded space or infinite unbounded space, if there was an ''edge'' of our universe , there is nothing to say or not to say that this imaginary boundary in some way pulls the light from source whether it be gravity related or other.

I imagine this boundary to be space itself, but that may be difficult to explain .

« Last Edit: 22/09/2016 09:26:10 by Thebox »

Thebox

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Re: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« Reply #6 on: 22/09/2016 09:19:25 »
Although I was not going to discuss science again having left my state of delusions of grandeur, I have been thinking about light.

I turn on the light switch.

The light is pulled towards my wall at c?
In no sense whatsoever can it be said that light is pulled towards anything or pushed from anything. Light is merely propagating in accordance with the laws of nature (in this case Maxwell's equation describes it all). If you were in the international space station and, inside the station, you were moving relative to the station and towards a wall. Do you see any sense in which it can be said that the wall was pulling you? Or can you see any reason why another wall was pushing you? No. A push or a pull is something which is caused by a force and no force exists,other than the gravitational force, which can push or pull light.

The sense of a bumper to bumper traffic flow.............

Thebox

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Re: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« Reply #7 on: 22/09/2016 09:25:12 »
How does the wall know when and what to pull?

Automated attraction like gravity, it does not need to know .  Light could be attracted to things without light or less light than an equilibrium.   I am not sure Alan, I just look at my light bulb and think,

1. push and flow

I then look at my wall and think

2. pull and flow

In this natural situation with no observer affect such as deflective angles and beams of light, the question seems to give two answers and could be either answer.

Cold things attract the ''warm'' , that is also in my considering.

Thebox

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Re: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« Reply #8 on: 22/09/2016 09:30:07 »
How does the light decide on a direction of travel in the first place? When it is emitted how does the source 'push' it in a certain direction? How can the source push at the speed of light?

There was once a bubble gum machine , the bubble gum machine was special and could emit bubbles really, really fast, no sooner had one bubble been emitted, the  next bubble was already emitting to push the first bubble, however there was bubbles being emitted spherical, so there was a sort of vortex of bubbles and variable directions like eddies in a river,  however the vortex was expanding always in a straight line relative to the source.

Alex Siqueira

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Re: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« Reply #9 on: 22/09/2016 10:13:25 »
How does the light decide on a direction of travel in the first place? When it is emitted how does the source 'push' it in a certain direction? How can the source push at the speed of light?

Temperature affect the density, the bulp does not push, certainily it does not pull neither, but every source of light produces heat... Is for one to accept if they share that matter is the catalistor to produce temperatures, but as all temperatures belonging and happening on the medium... The bulb than being simple a point of reference, no need of push or pull, it is interacting with space just by existing...

One can consider two main scenarios, where the light is being produced at C from the begining having a speed of its own, or that the light being produced never had any speed and that each component of the light is being subjected to the density of the medium, similar to the way matter is, except that matter can be phisicaly shapped, light does not,,, The path witch matter travels in space is a stragight line resonating on it as it occurs, the path witch matter is traveling is the same, but occuting from all dirrections matter tend to be stationary on its own, exept if an equal is presented disrupting the balance...

More simple, watch this, (((youtube.com/watch?v=LhBBCOIjkiM))), this is the similar behavior of light on space, exept that the bullet is made from very low bits of energy, that has no density (following the present), imagine light moving as the bullet, exept that its acceleration is given to it from and by space, and space got this acceleration from massive masses, such as black holes...
Imagine that behind, the now no dense bullet (that is formed by bits of sub atomic bullets), that there was no gun or necessity to it, there is no need for impulse or pull of any kind, imagine that the whole frame is moving because the air in the room is moving, accelerating, and so is everything else that has density, including the air, you, the camera, everything but it would't be able to interact with something that is spectrum and does not have density...
Instead at the moment the gun (star/bulb/fire) star to produce the light, this very ligh is not bound by gravity, it's bound to nothing, gravity will submit masses to it's will, but not light, light is still moving as normal on it's trails, the only curve it seems to do it's because the road change the pattern...
Somehow one can see but it's impossible to precisely awnser without fixing a whole lot of questions before, so may sound weird but in a sense light is able to move at the seepd of ight, cause it is able to escape the acceleration of the whole, of everything, matter can block its way and end it, but space does not, and the thing that is acceleratings space...
So in resume in some sense, light is able to travel and do what it does, cause light by its own properties is able to ignore space, literaly light is able to stood still when nothing is, as it is still limited by dense atomic structure, and also considering that is happening over a system that is entirely submited to gravity, light is not able to stay behind, but see, "what is behind and what's forward, on space, to something that can ignore the acceleration of a BH?", exacly, ligh seems to be able to move freely to wherever it wants cause it's constantly surpassing the density of the medium and its acceleration, this is a doble edge knife, there would be no behind, or forward to it, so it can potentialy be moving freely just by being stoped "at its origins"... The moment it's produced, it will move in a neutral mode to wherever dirrection it was pointed, trough space, since space is everywhere all the time, light will also "be able to occurs" wherever space is present...

As for the example, the balistic gel and everything is moving, light is not, a scenario where the gun did not had to shoot, and also where the bullet will behave following equaly on every possible dirrection, inside the gel...
« Last Edit: 23/09/2016 16:06:24 by Alex Siqueira »

Thebox

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Re: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« Reply #10 on: 24/09/2016 13:12:17 »
How does the light decide on a direction of travel in the first place? When it is emitted how does the source 'push' it in a certain direction? How can the source push at the speed of light?

Temperature affect the density, the bulp does not push,

How do you know that it does not push if you can not directly observe/see Photon's to begin with?

Just imagine two invisible men ''wrestling'', would you agree that these invisible men apply force on each other?

Push or pull.

Only if the invisible men were to fight in a mud pit would we see the effect . i.e wave compression by permeability.

Alex Siqueira

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Re: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« Reply #11 on: 24/09/2016 16:27:21 »
I understood your example, but reaching further from my own perspective, never was two "man" pushing one another, their bodies have never interacted one with the other, only the space between them, so one could say that the two mans where simple existing one against the other, and this existence alone, was interacting with the enviroment, in the question space, one man is pushing the space between the cells that forms the muscles of each other, never one man pushing the other man, unless they where strong enought to fuse one with the other...

As for what mtters, how do I know? I do not know, I presume, and I accept your point of view on myself, but without the intend, yet, to opend hand of it, so I'll go along not knowing for sure anyway, untill someone knows to be otherwise...

Spectrum(the light) is able to escape the actions fo the whole, it can stood still when nothing else that has density could, including the bulb of the example. Although there would be no back or forward to it, only the source of origin, witch is also moving along with eventhing else, cause it has density....
You turn on the bulb of light, light will resonate forming waves as we all know, but when refering to it's speed, for me the speed of light reveals the density of the medium, it will still be constant, with a variable speed from frame to frame, ajusting itself to the dilatation of the medium, but nonentless the same constant speed...
The light is occuring, the bulb is still moving cause acceleration of the medium is pushing the planet as is the bulb, the light does not need to follow gravity, it will not stay behind or move fowards neighter, it will simple stood still starting from it's originis, as the bulb and the room where light is occuring is still dense thus submited to the general acceleration, light will stood still instantaneously where it's point of origin, source, is, independantly from where it will be or where it was, the medium that has past, the medium now, and the medium to come are still the same....
One cannot be sure of this cause math will have to follow a slow course and strapolate a lot, before reajust itself, we miss something big, but somehow our science is still working, and that is thanks to math alone...

Light seems to me to be able to move at C, at the speed of light, cause from its point of orin, it is able to "stood still" from A to B... And light is constant cause wheverever can be apart from a medium that is accelerating, will always be consider the fastest thing on that medium, the only thing that can change that is density, and density in terms of space seems to be related with hot and cold due presence of matter...
« Last Edit: 24/09/2016 16:29:34 by Alex Siqueira »

Thebox

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Re: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« Reply #12 on: 25/09/2016 22:34:39 »

Light seems to me to be able to move at C, at the speed of light,

But does light move at c?

IF Photons pushed Photons and the emittence speed was c, surely the Photons would be pushed at c ?

I even consider c is the limit of stretch of light and liking to a force rather than a speed, a bit like gravity falling speed but the invert.
« Last Edit: 25/09/2016 22:39:47 by Thebox »

Alex Siqueira

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Re: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« Reply #13 on: 26/09/2016 10:16:35 »
Sure, it's still C, light is able to stood still, without behind or forward, bu it does posses a point of reference that is the bulb, the sorce, the only place the light wouldn't be able to reach is towards A... A is traveling, B is also traveling, different speeds but still, light seems to be able to simple ignore the density, thus, acceleration of the medium and than move at the hightes speed possible, in function of it's absence of mass, witch would be C...
The medium only holds back the acceleration of things, it's infuence it's not required to achieve speeds, seems to be more related with controling them, light it can't... Altough light is still traveling over such field, if the dilatation changes, light speed would readapt itself speeding up or slowing down only when compared to the previous speed, on itself, the speed have never changed...

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Re: How do we know that the speed of light is not pull speed?
« Reply #13 on: 26/09/2016 10:16:35 »