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Author Topic: What does Einstein mean by time elongation?  (Read 598 times)

Offline jerrygg38

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What does Einstein mean by time elongation?
« on: 30/09/2016 15:19:15 »
What does Einstein mean by time elongation?
   According to Einstein a clock traveling with a velocity V with respect to a ground reference upon Earth will have a reduced number of clock ticks. When the clock returns to Earth it will read less total time. As you look all over the internet there is a state of confusion over what this means. Some people believe that the physical processes slow during space travel. Others believe the opposite. Einstein got his time equations from Lorentz. On page 39 of his 1920 Relativity book he shows the Lorentz equations
Xí = [X- vt]/ [1- (V/C)^2]^0.5
tí = t Ė[v/C^2] X / [1-V/C)^2]^0.5
  Notice that the forms of the equations are identical. As the velocity increases, the inertial mass will rise by the same factor. The distance will shrink and the time will shrink. A shrunken mass will have a shorter wavelength and a faster time between equivalent pulses. From this it is clear that from our reference plane upon the Earth, the clock on the spaceship is going faster and faster as the spaceship speeds up. Yet Einstein predicts the clock will be slower.
  Let us now look at Einsteinís equations on page 43
L = Lo [1-(V/C)^2]^0.5
  Einstein agrees with Lorentz that the ruler shrinks with increasing velocity. Then he does something confusing to many people. On page 44 he specifies that time increases by the factor:
 T = 1/[1-(V/C)^2]^0.5
   Lorentz has specified that time will move faster with velocity. Yet Einstein inverted it. He says that time will be slower and length will be shorter at the same time. Something is wrong. This week as I reread it again it appeared to me that if we see the clock on the spaceship as moving very fast, the observer on the spaceship will look at the ground clock and see that it does not move. Thus Einstein looked at the size of the spaceship and said it was small but he used inverted time and looked back from the spaceship to read the Earth clock. Do you scientific experts agree with this analysis?
   Now the question is what happens to a man who goes on a long space voyage at high velocity?  He goes out for a long trip and comes back one day later by our time clock. Yet within the spaceship the clock was spinning quite rapidly. Thus he has lived a hundred years by his time clock and died and yet to the Earth people he has only lived one day. Did Einstein realize he had reversed the time clocks?
   There is no benefit to traveling fast. You may return in a day but you will be dead. Please tell me if you agree with this analysis of Einsteinís clock equations.
   


 

Offline evan_au

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Re: What does Einstein mean by time elongation?
« Reply #1 on: 01/10/2016 11:04:02 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
What does Einstein mean by time elongation?
The standard terminology is time dilation.

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Lorentz has specified that time will move faster with velocity. Yet Einstein inverted it. He says that time will be slower
My understanding is that when a person A floating in deep space looks at the clock on a rapidly passing spacecraft (B), person (A) will think that the clock (B) is running slower than the clock at (A).

This has been confirmed experimentally by the lifetime of subatomic particles from accelerators and cosmic rays.

By symmetry, a person on spaceship (B) will think that the clock held by person (A) is running slower than the clock at (B).

Or both of them could have learnt about relativity, and think that this is perfectly natural for a clock traveling at high speed.

When you add in gravitational fields (eg person A is standing on Earth), the extra factor of gravitational time dilation comes into play.

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a long space voyage at high velocity -  He goes out for a long trip and comes back one day later
To get back to the starting point, person (B) has to undergo acceleration. This also adds an additional factor to the calculation of time dilation.
 

Offline jerrygg38

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Re: What does Einstein mean by time elongation?
« Reply #2 on: 01/10/2016 23:23:59 »
Dear evan_au thanks for your response. The data you specify confirms that Einstein has the correct answer. What I am looking for is how the thinking of Einstein has produced these great results. Einstein was dyslectic which makes him have problems with right to left and left to right. No doubt his brain had problems with things that are inverted from each other.
   There have been many books written agreeing with Einstein and disagreeing with Einstein. The Electrical Engineers have been in heavy disagreement. The physicists like his answers. As I mentioned if I look at the Lorenz equations it appears to me from an EE perspective that the more mass, the shorter wavelength, and the higher frequency. The clock that has an increase of energy will speed up. A black hole would have a very short wavelength and run at near infinite speed.
  Simple put Distance factor /time factor = C
  The ratio of distance to time is velocity. Thus from an EE perspective everything is wonderful.
   The mind of Einstein inverted this equation.
Distance factor x Time factor = 1
  Thus if an object shrinks in size, it will slow. A moving clock will shrink in size and at the same time will slow.
   We then have a universe that work on two factors
  Ordinary physics:  meters/seconds = speed of light C.
And for space time physics meters x Seconds = a constant
   In effect we have   a universe where the ratios of meters and seconds have one meaning and the product of meters and seconds have another meaning.
   Have I explained this to you adequately and do you agree?
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: What does Einstein mean by time elongation?
« Reply #3 on: 02/10/2016 12:17:19 »
Quote from: jerrygg38
As I mentioned if I look at the Lorenz equations it appears to me from an EE perspective that the more mass, the shorter wavelength, and the higher frequency. The clock that has an increase of energy will speed up.
Please clarify whether you are talking about Special Relativity (which applies in areas far away from large masses and their gravitational fields) or General Relativity (which deals with areas in a gravitational well produced by a mass).

Since you talk about the Lorentz factor, I will assume that you want to discuss Special Relativity.
- When you consider an object coming towards you or traveling away from you, the mass of that object seems (to you) to be increased by the Lorentz factor
- Time on that object will also appear (to you) be slowed by the Lorentz factor
- Length of that object will appear (to you) to be compressed by the Lorentz factor
- However, everything on that object will look fine to someone on that object
- Nowhere here does relativity talk about the wavelength of the object or the frequency of the object (quantum theory does have a concept of an object having a wavelength, but that is outside Relativity)

If you talk about light emitted by a fast-moving object, that is covered by Special Relativity; there are two competing effects:
- The Doppler effect will increase the frequency when the object is moving towards you, and decrease it when the object is moving away from you. This effect is quite detectable, even for fairly slow-moving objects.
- Time dilation will decrease the frequency whether the object is moving towards or away from you (but this effect is only noticeable when the object is travelling at a good percentage of c, and only becomes dominant when the object is travelling very close to c)
- So whether the frequency emitted by an object is increased or decreased depends on its direction and its velocity.

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Thus if an object shrinks in size, it will slow. A moving clock will shrink in size and at the same time will slow.
This leaves out the cause, so I don't think it is adequately explained, and I can't agree with something I don't understand.

Shrinking is not a cause, but it could be an effect - please specify what you imagine to be the cause of the shrinking and slowing.
Hint: In Special Relativity, it is the relative velocity.
 

Offline jerrygg38

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Re: What does Einstein mean by time elongation?
« Reply #4 on: 02/10/2016 20:50:45 »
To evan_au. Thanks for the clarification. Yes special relativity was what I was looking at. You explained it very well. Right now I am adding the concepts of special relativity to my future book "Relativity and the Dot-wave theory" which I will present on New Theories when I copyright it in a few more weeks. So now I got a good grasp of what Einstein presented and I want to present it correctly.
   Now for general relativity. It looks like the effects are similar. In a strong gravitational field things will shrink and the clock will slow which is very similar to special relativity. Do you agree?
   In ordinary EE work, shorter wavelength means higher energy and when viewed as a frequency, higher frequency. However for relativity (motion or gravity) shorter wavelength has greater mass and greater mass has lower frequency or clock. Of course relativity deals with motion (velocity) and gravitational intensity. So it is quite different than a circuit on a table set up or electrical wires in a cable or tv transmission. except for Doppler effects for moving objects EE work does not have Einsteins solutions.
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: What does Einstein mean by time elongation?
« Reply #5 on: 02/10/2016 22:55:13 »
Quote
except for Doppler effects for moving objects EE work does not have Einsteins solutions.
Einstein's adjustments apply at high velocities (very obvious close to c) and strong gravitational fields (very obvious near a black hole).
- Relativistic effects are necessary to explain the behavior of a cyclotron (which would have been built by EE)
- Fortunately for us, we have not been close enough to a black hole to see how our electronics works there.

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However for relativity (motion or gravity) shorter wavelength has greater mass and greater mass has lower frequency or clock.
This is where I lose you. What is this wavelength that you talk about?
Relativity does not imply a wavelength for an object.
If you are talking about light emitted by an object, you need to define more information to come to an answer.

What is this mass that you talk about?
The mass of a rapidly moving object? The mass of an astronomical object, which has a test subject near its surface?
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: What does Einstein mean by time elongation?
« Reply #6 on: 02/10/2016 23:46:40 »
   There have been many books written agreeing with Einstein and disagreeing with Einstein. The Electrical Engineers have been in heavy disagreement.
All the electrical engineers I know are in strong agreement. Relativity is a key part of any electrical engineering curriculum.
Can you be specific about who disagrees?
 

Offline jerrygg38

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Re: What does Einstein mean by time elongation?
« Reply #7 on: 05/10/2016 00:43:07 »
   There have been many books written agreeing with Einstein and disagreeing with Einstein. The Electrical Engineers have been in heavy disagreement.
All the electrical engineers I know are in strong agreement. Relativity is a key part of any electrical engineering curriculum.
Can you be specific about who disagrees?
  Sorry I have no references. It was in 1981-3 that I looked at books on the pros and cons of Einsteins work. Several books by EE's were against him. Now I guess things have changed as more data came in. As I reread his 1920 book and with the help here I now believe his basic equations are true. for myself I split them up to Doppler equivalents where the geometric mean equals Einstein. And you can only measure the mean so he is perfectly correct. I am almost finished with my new book and I specify that he is correct. but I like the details of what physically happens in space and time. So I bring to light the engineering details of his work. Thanks for the help because I was a little confused on how to interpret what he said.
 

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Re: What does Einstein mean by time elongation?
« Reply #7 on: 05/10/2016 00:43:07 »

 

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