# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Space and matter concept  (Read 1657 times)

#### Nilak

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #25 on: 16/10/2016 15:34:54 »
There are some things that I find interesting analizing, considering my model.
About dark matter.
Based on my model, mass is a space density index and space is a field of points. Mass can only be attributed to a volume of space. So it is spacedensity*volume=the number of points. The number of points is actually infinite. But mass is a relativistic concept so you can chose a fixed value for it. Dark matter is the made of the points we can't measure.  Basically the mass of the visible matter plus the mass of the univisible matter makes the entire universe. We can attribute the whole universe a mass.

Universe expansion.
From Big Bang the universe has expanded to a certain value. That mean the field of points reached a certain limit.
The distribution of particles and their state gives the expansion rate. It is possible to estimate this distribuition if we could measure the coordinated speed of light in certain directions and at certain distances. Also, the increasing expansion rate could be the cause of higher space density at the outer edge of the universe. It is like a big dark matter shell around the universe.
« Last Edit: 16/10/2016 19:17:48 by Nilak »

#### GoC

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #26 on: 16/10/2016 19:41:53 »
Yes your idea is logical for two issues of an operating system. What in your model moves the electron and photon confounded in every frame?

#### Nilak

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #27 on: 16/10/2016 20:09:49 »
Quote
The reason for me to abandon it was it did not satisfy all four pats of Relativity. Specifically it fails dilation. We

I don't see right now, why it fails dilation. The coordinated time is constant, proper space and time dilates and contracts proportionaly creating a field of density regions, leaving the measurement of c in proper reference frame constant. C=dx''/dt''=dx'/dt' the external observer sees c'=dx'/dt, c''=dx''/dt. Also, density of space is constant in abery reference frame, and it varies  when viewed from an observer.

Quote
In relativity mathematics photons have to be virtual or just not part of mass.

If I follow my model, photons are propagating values of space points properties. So, their mass can be viewed as  mass of the space they occupy at a particular moment. That mass would be not detectable and could be associated with dark matter. These photons would't produce mass, but only propagate information. Do you think there is a problem here ?

#### Nilak

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #28 on: 16/10/2016 20:44:38 »
Yes your idea is logical for two issues of an operating system. What in your model moves the electron and photon confounded in every frame?
I didn't analyze this part very well and this seems to me, by far, the hardest part. The values of space points properties propagate from one point to the next. I see it similarily to pulling a string. The easier way to analyze this may seem, by studying static fields, however, according to my model, nothing is static, except when stopping time.
The string pulling analogy may lead to a conclusion that photons are generated in pairs, which I have to check. When you pull a string, the waves go both ways.

Imagine turning on a electromagnet and watching the effect on a piece of paper on which you sprinkle a layer of iron powder. If you slow down time, you should see how the pieces of iron move. The propagation of values should be at speed c. The magnitude of the values of magnetic field in each space particle will decrease with distance but the spreading out never stops. Whem turning off the current, the values should propagate like when releasing a string. The energy of the magnet is released and will continue manifest it's presence in this space of property points.

#### Alex Siqueira

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #29 on: 17/10/2016 03:06:12 »
Einstein used proper speed as a constant. This aspect of Relativity is very important. Measured distances change by dilation and speed. There is an equivalence between SR and GR. We can show by math the visual length of a measuring stick lengthens as we approach c. This has nothing to do with the Lorentz contraction of an observer at rest. The physical size of a measuring stick does not change with speed (SR) just the visual length. It is the same with the Lorentz contraction. This can be shown geometrically with the finite speed of light competing with the speed of an object. In GR (gravity) dilation is the equivalence. What is amazing, the photon and electron are confounded to measure the same speed of light, in a vacuum, in every frame. A clock can be placed in any angle compared to the vector speed and geometrically, shown to tick at the same rate. Both a light clock and a mechanical clock tick in synchronization. This is proof there is a control mechanism fixing both the electron cycle and photon distance, in every frame to be the same measured ratio.

Your idea is a higher density of micro particles slowing down the speed of light to take longer. I thought through that process in the past and had to abandon that approach. The reason for me to abandon it was it did not satisfy all four pats of Relativity. Specifically it fails dilation. We know light curves around a celestial body by expansion of space. Your first thought is, correct there must be more particles and it curves around them. But when you think deeper you begin to realize, there is a control mechanism of space time measurement. This has to be in the form of energy. Now the question becomes where is the fundamental energy. Two choices come to mind. It is either mass as science now believes or it is of space. We can consider the electrons as fundamental energy but that does not satisfy electrons and photons being confounded in every frame. In relativity mathematics photons have to be virtual or just not part of mass. This leaves us with one logical choice. The energy has to be of space to move electrons and photons in a confounded manor.

Energy spin state of c would have to be stretched in the presence of mass occupying space. The physical clock electron based moves further to remain the same relative speed of c. There is no logical reason for more particles/mass. Mass would reduce the density of energy by taking up space energy once occupied and removing that energy to move the electrons. Gravity being caused by mass attracted to a lower energy density.

I might be incorrect in my logic but you need to find a operating system for relativity as a whole and not just one specific cause of one observation.

We are in a catch 22 in our understanding using postulates. We are all making claims based on our own operating system of beliefs. Main stream has nothing to work with because of the MMX. Rather than disproving one type of Ether which is all it disproved, main stream science refuses to consider an Ether not yet disproved.

Main stream removed the tools needed to understand the four forces. They traded mechanics in for magic.

i'm very impressed with the lack of emotion and sharp focus you demonstrate on your awnsers.
Tell me, I know trough observation of photons is impossible cause the very interaction with the enviroment invalidates the experiment, photons can be only theorized by using logic over GR..
So I would apreciate if you try to exchange the "particle photon", for not a virtual particle, but for a temporary construction of the whole (aether) that happens wherever there is another particles, photons as being nothing else but energy surrownded by a "shape", only a temporary container of energy, provinient from aether itself reacting to the energy, sort of enveloping it on some sort of constant spiral "shape", and due this constant precense of new photons being possible activated and deactivated wherever other particles are presented, as the true source of the sppining of the other particles...
in other words, do you believe, following logic, that is possible that each photon is simple a "shape" of the whole, with that in mind reaching to the possibilitie that there is no "one photon" as single particle, but instead the very aether that when in contact with these particles, force itself to spin around of them at "C", (C being the maximum speed in with the shape photon can be created by space).
I'm only wondering if is possible to photon being only a spiral shape of the whole to carry energy, would it, if possible, explain why photons are able to move at C? And most important, this alternative perspective of what photons are, would not invalidade GR, Correct? I'm assuming that a photon that is creating from space at "C" would not require the photons to be massless anymore, correct? Preserving E=mc2, onyl with a different perspective....

I do ask cause my knoledge about GR is not even close of the one your displaying this topic, perhaps you could awnser...
In a rudimentar example:
Space/void = Aether
Aether/particles=Photons  (this very shape and sppining aether, the source from whom the particles are extracting the fundamental energy...

Photons as being a spiral shape of the aether happening at C due the precense of other particles, seting those very particles in motion, in large escale seting whole planets in motion folowing the same process...

Light being only as any other photons presented in matter, with the only difference of the lacking of density, so each spiral photon presented on a ray of light, wouldn't be traveling from A to B at all, but intead photons happening at "C" all the time from A to B. And each spiral photon contruction where the energy is passing by, resulting in resonating empty photons around of it in all dirrections, like empity resonating replicas of the original one, resulting in waves?
I'm not looking at virtual photons, and the resonating photons not even different of the first one, since they are all constructions, each photon would be as real as the one that desencadeate the event...

What I mean with temporary spiral construction of space, is sort of , aether contantly trying to collapse at "C" over the energy (gravity), since different from macro mass that has density, light would have almost none.
Without any density aether would be constantly trying to colapse ove the light, sicne it can't it would than start to built aorund of it, contantly trying to colapse and failing, this process resulting in some sort of sppiral propagation of light, once again would be constantly happening at "C"... "C" being not the speed of the energy itself, but "C" being the maximum speed of witch those atempts of colapse would be happening... Sort of "C" not being the speed of light at all, but the maximum speed with aether can produce the photon?

Possible?
« Last Edit: 17/10/2016 03:29:40 by Alex Siqueira »

#### Nilak

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #30 on: 17/10/2016 09:52:11 »
On reply #29
No offense, but I think we should refrain ourselves from making aggressive and impulsive comments and find a more polite manner to reply to issues. I appreciate the simple interest in folowing my post even though statement might not be correct. Your comments are very appreciated as well but I suggest not offending other persons. Sorry for this.

#### Alex Siqueira

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #31 on: 17/10/2016 10:23:15 »
On reply #29
No offense, but I think we should refrain ourselves from making aggressive and impulsive comments and find a more polite manner to reply to issues. I appreciate the simple interest in folowing my post even though statement might not be correct. Your comments are very appreciated as well but I suggest not offending other persons. Sorry for this.

Sure, wherever that suppose to mean, no problem at all, and thank you for answering on his place... Although, is rare to me to ask a direct question to a specific member, for more that I respect your opinion as much as my own, after being following his work. I sincerely do not believe that we both together have the clarity of mind that he does about GR on all its aspects, for that very reason my curiosity still remain despise of anything...
To not extend this much further, I'll submit a PV to the specific user, do not worry wherever it was, wont happen again...

all the luck...

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#### Nilak

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #32 on: 17/10/2016 11:00:40 »
Concept clarification.

I had a conversation on a different forum, an I was suggested some clarifications.

Space points are (entities)  exhibited relatively never having an absolute position in some preferred coordinate system. "It does not behave like a classical fluid.  Points define LOCAL space as there are no extant fixed points non-locally or globally."

« Last Edit: 17/10/2016 20:48:05 by Nilak »

#### GoC

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #33 on: 17/10/2016 16:35:46 »
I want to apologize for my lack of emotion. I have struggled with this aspect of my nature all of my life. I come across as being rude without the understanding of the feelings of others. While I have empathy for visual physical pain I am not able to process emotional pain properly to what is considered average. I have a below average emotional understanding. I might not have the capacity to learn. I can only apologize when accused and continue to offend.

[Quote/]Alex Siqueira
« on: Today at 03:06:12 » Nilak
« on: Today at 11:00:40 »  [\Quote]

Both of you are understanding there are particles beyond mass that we can perceive. This is a size and motion problem that we will never detect other than orthogonally. Motion of macro mass is possible because of the motion of micro mass c. Einstein Suggested we cannot assign motion to an Ether. A flow of ether would invalidate relativity. A static Ether was disproven by the MMX. There is only one motion left and that is micro particle spin c that actually causes relativity. We can only postulate micro particles spin at c because like electron movement, currently there is no mechanical cause being expressed by main stream. I will postulate a cause for electron motion. Nilak you are in the first stages of understanding and Alex perceives most of the mechanical process to understand a possible explanation for relativity mathematics.

Nilak if you give your particles spin c the views you express will take the form of relativity. No micro particle in space occupies that space indefinitely unless the spin function is a ridged matrix of the universe. I am leaning towards a grid matrix of spin c because light has a different distance east to west than west to east. New York to San Francisco is fourteen ns further for light to travel than in the opposite direction. If you go north to the axis and then south and reverse the direction atomic clocks remain synchronized. So it might be likely that the Earth as it travels through space dilates the new particles in space same as light traveling through space dilates new particles.

The spin nature of the micro particles create a rotational path forward with its own dilation of the particles not enough to make a wave other than background noise. When the electron jumps its orbit it changes its path abruptly causing a wave to be generated. The rotation causes a backward and forward wave with a mirror image on the reversed side. When you bring those sides back together the one affects the other as spooky at a distance entanglement. In reality the reverse wave was created from the start and the wave spin when measured by one is opposite of the other. similar to you being tricked by a magician by not understanding the trick.

Dilation of energy is of course density of micro energy particles being expanded by moving the electrons of macro mass. Particle spin does not slow down its just the light wave moves through more space between particles. Light curves around dilation trying to stay as close to the original wave density of space as possible.

Gravity of course is mass trying to occupy the least dense energy space possible by the inverse square of the distance to the most dilated position. The moon pulls up the ocean 6 inches by its dilation of space and inverse square affect.

This brings us to galaxies having an accumulated dilation we view as the lensing affect. The light produced in dilation is red shifted because of the accumulated expansion of micro energy particles. They are most expanded in the center of galaxies where 75% of the stars create the galaxy light. So we can explain red shift from our less dilated position in our galaxy by GR rather than main stream claiming it to be SR red shift.

The big bang is not necessary to magically produce mass. Macro mass is produced in suns by creating electrons. They are created from micro energy by fusion.

I can explain relativity mechanically with just the postulate of spinning micro mass. Space time, micro mass energy, Dark mass energy call it anything you like.

It may take 500 years before main stream quits floundering in their belief in magic and not having the tools (spinning micro mass) to understand relativity both mathematically and mechanically.

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#### Alex Siqueira

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #34 on: 17/10/2016 20:21:38 »
I want to apologize for my lack of emotion. I have struggled with this aspect of my nature all of my life. I come across as being rude without the understanding of the feelings of others. While I have empathy for visual physical pain I am not able to process emotional pain properly to what is considered average. I have a below average emotional understanding. I might not have the capacity to learn. I can only apologize when accused and continue to offend.

[Quote/]Alex Siqueira
« on: Today at 03:06:12 » Nilak
« on: Today at 11:00:40 »  [\Quote]

Both of you are understanding there are particles beyond mass that we can perceive. This is a size and motion problem that we will never detect other than orthogonally. Motion of macro mass is possible because of the motion of micro mass c. Einstein Suggested we cannot assign motion to an Ether. A flow of ether would invalidate relativity. A static Ether was disproven by the MMX. There is only one motion left and that is micro particle spin c that actually causes relativity. We can only postulate micro particles spin at c because like electron movement, currently there is no mechanical cause being expressed by main stream. I will postulate a cause for electron motion. Nilak you are in the first stages of understanding and Alex perceives most of the mechanical process to understand a possible explanation for relativity mathematics.

Nilak if you give your particles spin c the views you express will take the form of relativity. No micro particle in space occupies that space indefinitely unless the spin function is a ridged matrix of the universe. I am leaning towards a grid matrix of spin c because light has a different distance east to west than west to east. New York to San Francisco is fourteen ns further for light to travel than in the opposite direction. If you go north to the axis and then south and reverse the direction atomic clocks remain synchronized. So it might be likely that the Earth as it travels through space dilates the new particles in space same as light traveling through space dilates new particles.

The spin nature of the micro particles create a rotational path forward with its own dilation of the particles not enough to make a wave other than background noise. When the electron jumps its orbit it changes its path abruptly causing a wave to be generated. The rotation causes a backward and forward wave with a mirror image on the reversed side. When you bring those sides back together the one affects the other as spooky at a distance entanglement. In reality the reverse wave was created from the start and the wave spin when measured by one is opposite of the other. similar to you being tricked by a magician by not understanding the trick.

Dilation of energy is of course density of micro energy particles being expanded by moving the electrons of macro mass. Particle spin does not slow down its just the light wave moves through more space between particles. Light curves around dilation trying to stay as close to the original wave density of space as possible.

Gravity of course is mass trying to occupy the least dense energy space possible by the inverse square of the distance to the most dilated position. The moon pulls up the ocean 6 inches by its dilation of space and inverse square affect.

This brings us to galaxies having an accumulated dilation we view as the lensing affect. The light produced in dilation is red shifted because of the accumulated expansion of micro energy particles. They are most expanded in the center of galaxies where 75% of the stars create the galaxy light. So we can explain red shift from our less dilated position in our galaxy by GR rather than main stream claiming it to be SR red shift.

The big bang is not necessary to magically produce mass. Macro mass is produced in suns by creating electrons. They are created from micro energy by fusion.

I can explain relativity mechanically with just the postulate of spinning micro mass. Space time, micro mass energy, Dark mass energy call it anything you like.

It may take 500 years before main stream quits floundering in their belief in magic and not having the tools (spinning micro mass) to understand relativity both mathematically and mechanically.

I have to admit, that I do suffer from the same ill, the offense must me on the cultural side witch I would no know, the best I can do is accept... The point is, when I suggest the lack,"on the text", I was purely doing a complement, it's very pleasant to read well explained contend...
it was away easy to to read mind based on the patterns on their texts or speeches. Much fake or lack of fate on the own beliefs. Every time you explain relativity, for more I try to find a gap that transparent convenience, although this time I could not find...
In resume it must mean that this member truly understands relativity. It's not my other language, despise of whatever it sound like, be sure my friend it was a sincere complement...
In some cases, for me given our history lack of emotion and sympathize with other, is just what saves society from total collapse, and the excess of emotion what sedate the rational mind and allowing someone to be manipulated by, on this case, mainstream.... Like when one read on the paper about a terrible accident, and instead of feel something, realizes that the history is not perfect told, there is fact that must remain unknown to press, thus inevitable gets to the conclusion, that feel something about such thing, would be unreal... You can relate with what you see, as most of us here, anyway believe me, it is a complement friend...

In respect with the explanation you provide, I still not entirely sure, I'll try to figure out...
May be subjection, I can't stop to believe that, photons, are the wrong concept, although seems, that we did the correct calculations...

#### GoC

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #35 on: 18/10/2016 04:53:06 »
just saying the word photon brings a particle to mind. Visual nm for the wave, the electron jumps from one state to another rotationally disturbing the spin state of c particles. The rotation and length from the rest state creates the wave where 180 degrees one side is a push forward and the other side a pull backward. This wave front is propagated in all directions. the 180 degree shell is perfectly opposite so it is considered entangled when you determine the spin state of one side the other side is the opposite spin state. Entangled wave information does not travel faster than light. They are opposite spin states at the creation of light. Main stream is being tricked by their understanding of light being a particle.

It is only the wave on spin particles already at c that are disturbed and propagate that disturbance at c until the pattern is dissipated by mass and detected as work energy.

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#### Nilak

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #36 on: 24/10/2016 22:47:00 »
just saying the word photon brings a particle to mind. Visual nm for the wave, the electron jumps from one state to another rotationally disturbing the spin state of c particles. The rotation and length from the rest state creates the wave where 180 degrees one side is a push forward and the other side a pull backward. This wave front is propagated in all directions. the 180 degree shell is perfectly opposite so it is considered entangled when you determine the spin state of one side the other side is the opposite spin state. Entangled wave information does not travel faster than light. They are opposite spin states at the creation of light. Main stream is being tricked by their understanding of light being a particle.

It is only the wave on spin particles already at c that are disturbed and propagate that disturbance at c until the pattern is dissipated by mass and detected as work energy.

The spin state at the creation of light was disproved by Bell' Theorem, although that might require more evidence.
The concept of spin for c particles is not very clear to me. However since my concept includes point entities that have a set of properties, the possibility that one of them could be spin, can be analyzed.
The values of some properties can be stored as spin.
If your c particles spin, do you mean they also have mass ?
My space point entities also can have some infinitesimal mass, but the mass is more like their own existence not a property. It is for equivalence purposes with other theories.

P.s. The angular momentum of point particles is not very clear either. If there are infinitesimal radius and mass then there will be an infinitesimal angular momentum.
« Last Edit: 26/10/2016 22:08:23 by Nilak »

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#### Nilak

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #37 on: 24/10/2016 23:17:52 »
Entropy properties following this concept.
Space point entities tend to collapse to a single point. This can be viewed as negative energy. The information pushed into the system, also known as energy, does the opposite and can be viewed as positive energy.
The tendency to collapse is a factor that, reduces the entropy of the system while the information, as positive energy increases the entropy. The positive energy is always matches the negtive energy. The total entropy depends on the definition of entropy. As a degre of disorder, the total entropy varies with time.
Gravity.
Instead of time space curvature, the gravity is simply a tendency of space to collapse to its initial state. As it collapses its mass/density  increases. To balance this you need energy.  An high density space near an even higher density  will require more energy to be pushed away so the effect is that those density will travel toward each other.

#### Nilak

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #38 on: 27/10/2016 08:21:44 »
Quote
The reason for me to abandon it was it did not satisfy all four pats of Relativity. Specifically it fails dilation. We

I don't see right now, why it fails dilation. The coordinated time is constant, proper space and time dilates and contracts proportionaly creating a field of density regions, leaving the measurement of c in proper reference frame constant. C=dx''/dt''=dx'/dt' the external observer sees c'=dx'/dt, c''=dx''/dt. Also, density of space is constant in abery reference frame, and it varies  when viewed from an observer.

Quote
In relativity mathematics photons have to be virtual or just not part of mass.

If I follow my model, photons are propagating values of space points properties. So, their mass can be viewed as  mass of the space they occupy at a particular moment. That mass would be not detectable and could be associated with dark matter. These photons would't produce mass, but only propagate information. Do you think there is a problem here ?

Yes, the model has issues with relativity.
Also, photons mean energy into the system, and that affects the space. The wave can't propagate without affecting the space it is traveling through, which involves mass.
« Last Edit: 27/10/2016 08:33:28 by Nilak »

#### GoC

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #39 on: 27/10/2016 14:59:46 »
Nilak,

I believe you are on the correct path. I am trying to move you to see the whole picture. Your points in space are correct if mechanics apply to relativity. Entropy is of mass and not space. Your points in space have to spin to mechanically move electrons and photons in a confounded manor we observe. A Flow of information is in the form of particle wave without entropy. Space energy from the spin state of space particles propagate the wave in all directions equally. Bells theorem does not disprove spinning particles at c. I can describe the spin direction of 2d grid particles that create relativity's electron flow and propagation wave caused by the electron jump we understand as a photon. Your particles do not flow they spin. A spectrum observation is different wave propagations on the same particle spin grid. Particle flow is not part of the wave propagation.

#### Nilak

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #40 on: 31/10/2016 10:09:50 »
Analogy with conventional space.
The metric of space coresponds to the point entities of this concept. Near objects the metric of space is contracted. This translates to increased point entities density.

#### Nilak

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #41 on: 31/10/2016 11:52:48 »
Entropy properties following this concept.
Space point entities tend to collapse to a single point. This can be viewed as negative energy. The information pushed into the system, also known as energy, does the opposite and can be viewed as positive energy.
The tendency to collapse is a factor that, reduces the entropy of the system while the information, as positive energy increases the entropy. The positive energy is always matches the negtive energy. The total entropy depends on the definition of entropy. As a degre of disorder, the total entropy varies with time.
Gravity.
Instead of time space curvature, the gravity is simply a tendency of space to collapse to its initial state. As it collapses its mass/density  increases. To balance this you need energy.  An high density space near an even higher density  will require more energy to be pushed away so the effect is that those density will travel toward each other.

Despite, energy expanding space being more intuitive, it might be exactly the opposite. Energy, makes these point entities gathering , otherwise they have the tendency to dissipate.

#### GoC

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #42 on: 31/10/2016 16:56:51 »
Quote
The metric of space coresponds to the point entities of this concept. Near objects the metric of space is contracted. This translates to increased point entities density

You cannot have dilation of space and contraction of space mean the same thing. In Relativity it is dilation of space. Less dense energy particles. But the caveat is energy density being less. This creates red shifted light in dilation. Longer waves slower clock tick rate due to increased distance between points.

Quote
Despite, energy expanding space being more intuitive, it might be exactly the opposite. Energy, makes these point entities gathering , otherwise they have the tendency to dissipate.

Yes in suns that are so large that the attraction becomes greater than the speed of light energy is no longer able to separate atoms and a black hole is formed. This dilates space energy away from the black hole. An electron travels proportionally from a marble to a football field. A black hole is a football field full of marbles by comparison.

The gamma term in Relativity is dilation of energy not contraction of energy. Dilation differences in energy state cause greater attraction but not greater mass.

#### Nilak

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #43 on: 13/11/2016 18:16:53 »
Analyzing the equivalence principle it looks like space itself gets continuously attracted by mass, which is more space density. Initially, I thought it only gets attracted until a point of equilibrium and only Black holes don't establish the equilibrium, but it is not. Space is more dynamic than I thought. But somehow acceleration is harder to explain because I need to imagine waves accelerating other waves. On top of this all waves like EM or waves corresponding to strong/weak force travel at the same rate (x/t=ct=c). Then a velocity below c in a x direction must be because of field values propagating in y an z direction in a circular pattern. Also when crossing a higher density space light must not slow down to confirm x/t constant, which seems to be true. When crossing a glass cube, probably one of the reasons light gets slowed down is due to trajectory deviation and not higher space density.

If gravity is contracting space, then gravity waves are space waves.
« Last Edit: 13/11/2016 19:23:07 by Nilak »

#### GoC

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #44 on: 14/11/2016 16:55:23 »
Quote
Analyzing the equivalence principle it looks like space itself gets continuously attracted by mass,

In my opinion only mass gets attracted to mass.

Quote
which is more space density.

Why do you view it as more space density?

Quote
Initially, I thought it only gets attracted until a point of equilibrium and only Black holes don't establish the equilibrium, but it is not

Equilibrium is the point between two bodies where a third body between has equal attraction.

Quote
Space is more dynamic than I thought. But somehow acceleration is harder to explain because I need to imagine waves accelerating other waves.

The possibility exists that gravity is not a wave but a linear static dilation to the center of gravity. Different elements change the center of gravity of course. Energy to move electrons towards the center of mass would become less dense due to moving more electrons. Simple geometry. A wave would be Doppler effects on space not gravity effects. A type of macro massless kinetic wave of fundamental energy.

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On top of this all waves like EM or waves corresponding to strong/weak force travel at the same rate (x/t=ct=c).

Yes of course space is the potential battery c and the electrons are the engines always running.

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Then a velocity below c in a x direction must be because of field values propagating in y an z direction in a circular pattern.

That describes electron motion as rotation and vector movement. The photon and electron are both moving at c but the electron rotates while moving forward. Quantum mechanics is energy c. The circular pattern is the rotating jump of the electron displayed as a wave packet propagating through space at c. The wave length and rotation is the pattern of the jump of the electron creating the photon on fundamental energy c.

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. Also when crossing a higher density space light must not slow down to confirm x/t constant, which seems to be true.

When the voyagers left the solar system they went into a higher density space (less dilated). Their clocks tick rate increased. This sent back a closer signal like the voyagers slowed down. It was incorrect to assume they slowed down. It was just another proof of GR. c energy being more dense away from mass.

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When crossing a glass cube, probably one of the reasons light gets slowed down is due to trajectory deviation and not higher space density.

It is the decrease in energy density in mass that causes the refraction of light direction that causes the trajectory change.

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If gravity is contracting space, then gravity waves are space waves.

You are confusing Doppler and gravity as the same cause. They are not.

In Relativity we first had postulates. Then the math that fell from those postulates mimicked observation to show the power of Relativity as reality. The third part is the mechanics. This is what scares those in science today. What if you worked on something all your life and found it to be false? It would be as difficult as convincing the Pope there was no God. No disrespect intended. And the followers are even more committed to follow the subjective interpretations wanting to be with the group of professed knowledge.

I totally believe in Relativity postulates and math. I make suggestions of a mechanical process that may or may not be true but like the postulates my mechanical view follows relativity. If you were to go into the rabbit hole (Relativity) You would need more than the math to know why things grow and shrink or why you can only see the eyes of the cat. The mechanics o relativity is the next step in the process of understanding.

Why do you think the voyagers slowed down? Or did they?

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#### Nilak

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #45 on: 14/11/2016 21:00:41 »
First of all, I appreciate your effort in trying to respond to my statements and your support. Thank you.
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Analyzing the equivalence principle it looks like space itself gets continuously attracted by mass,

In my opinion only mass gets attracted to mass.
It is what my concept says. Space attracts space. But this way a region of higher density can only propagate not literally move like you move a point on a line. Space dilation can also create an aparent additional motion. These things should be confirmed by GR, but until we hava some equivalent equations it not very clear if the idea really works.

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which is more space density.

Why do you view it as more space density?

The first thing that made me think of this possibility was the de Broglie theory which says all particles have an associated wave. Secondly, since space in not flat it must have a real structure, a sort of lattice, which expands and contracts. The particle wave duality fits better in this model. I don't agree the idea of free moving objects through space but rather propagating field values because I don't see how causality can restrict this motion. Causality can only restrict propagating information or values.
Space attracting space is not felt like a force because it is the dynamics of a whole reference system.
A recent confirmation is the quantum foam and the fact the mass of a proton is much greater than the mass of the individual quarks within the proton.

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Initially, I thought it only gets attracted until a point of equilibrium and only Black holes don't establish the equilibrium, but it is not

Equilibrium is the point between two bodies where a third body between has equal attraction.
Yes, but when thing move it means the equilibrium is not established. In a newtonian scenario a planet orbiting the sun has an equilibrium established on a radial axis between centrifugal and gravity force, but it is still moving. It is a quasi equilibrium.
When things move towards each other they are not in equilibrium. There are things in a quasi equilibrium around a black hole, which are those that orbit and other things falling into it. Those that  fall into it are not in equilibrium. There are always thing falling into black holes, just as there are always things falling on Earth.

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. Also when crossing a higher density space light must not slow down to confirm x/t constant, which seems to be true.

When the voyagers left the solar system they went into a higher density space (less dilated). Their clocks tick rate increased. This sent back a closer signal like the voyagers slowed down. It was incorrect to assume they slowed down. It was just another proof of GR. c energy being more dense away from mass.
Why higher density space? I think they went into lower density space, thus tick rates increased. I don't know what you mean by closer signal.

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When crossing a glass cube, probably one of the reasons light gets slowed down is due to trajectory deviation and not higher space density.

It is the decrease in energy density in mass that causes the refraction of light direction that causes the trajectory change.
It was a different idea. I meant to say, light is  zigzag-ing through the glass. When it gets out most photons escape at an angle dependent of the refraction index. But, honestly I don't know much about the phenomenon.

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If gravity is contracting space, then gravity waves are space waves.

You are confusing Doppler and gravity as the same cause. They are not.

In Relativity we first had postulates. Then the math that fell from those postulates mimicked observation to show the power of Relativity as reality. The third part is the mechanics. This is what scares those in science today. What if you worked on something all your life and found it to be false? It would be as difficult as convincing the Pope there was no God. No disrespect intended. And the followers are even more committed to follow the subjective interpretations wanting to be with the group of professed knowledge.

I totally believe in Relativity postulates and math. I make suggestions of a mechanical process that may or may not be true but like the postulates my mechanical view follows relativity. If you were to go into the rabbit hole (Relativity) You would need more than the math to know why things grow and shrink or why you can only see the eyes of the cat. The mechanics o relativity is the next step in the process of understanding.

Why do you think the voyagers slowed down? Or did they?

Doppler effect only makes sense if there are free objects travelling through space. If you draw an axis and place a point that can move in one direction that pont is moving freely. If you have a source that sends points in one direction at a frequency, when moving it can generate Doppler effect. The problem is that according to my model, you can't do that, because there are no free moving points, only space points that form a continuous universe. Space contraction can increase frequency of a wave, but tick rate of a clock decreases because the clock is counting some loops rather than a EM or other field frequency.

When you can't give up something that you believed for a long time, that is not science anymore, it is religion. However scientists are also biased sometimes this complicates things.
I also believe relativity but perhaps there are some aspects that we can improve. I don't see my model being in conflict with GR.

The voyagers could have slowed down because of the gravity exerted by our galaxy. But also being in a more dilated space would make them sent the same signal. Waves would redshift but clocks tick faster. At first glance I would say both things happened. The were slowed down but they also went into a less dense space.
But I don't know the whole story. I'll have to check on that.
« Last Edit: 14/11/2016 21:03:33 by Nilak »

#### GoC

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #46 on: 15/11/2016 14:47:16 »
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. Also when crossing a higher density space light must not slow down to confirm x/t constant, which seems to be true.

When the voyagers left the solar system they went into a higher density space (less dilated). Their clocks tick rate increased. This sent back a closer signal like the voyagers slowed down. It was incorrect to assume they slowed down. It was just another proof of GR. c energy being more dense away from mass.

Why higher density space? I think they went into lower density space, thus tick rates increased. I don't know what you mean by closer signal.

First you need to understand how NASA computes speed of the Voyagers. It is the duration between signals sent to Earth. The longer time between signals means the ship moved further away by SR because the signal traveled further. What current science believes is the signals are returned faster because the voyagers slowed. There is no reason for the voyagers to slow down by SR. The slow down was an increase in tick rate due to GR. The energy density increased outside of the solar system. The solar system has a dilation (expanded energy). So the clocks within the solar system cause the light to travel further along with the electrons traveling further in dilated space. When the clocks reached the threshold of the solar system dilation they went into was less dilated space and clocks ticked faster by GR. The voyager contracted slightly and the clocks on board contracted slightly in the less dilated space. So the tick rate increased and duration between ticks decreased. The voyager remained at a constant speed in the new frames measurement of distance and time. This is different from the frame within the solar system.

Planets have dilation. Solar systems have dilation. Galaxies have dilation. We view the galaxies dilation as lensing at the threshold of combined dilation within the galaxy.

So mass dilates energy not the other way around. Space is energy c.

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The voyagers could have slowed down because of the gravity exerted by our galaxy.

Gravity is a difference in dilations of space. This does cause attraction between masses. But the affect between the weight of the voyagers and the solar system is insignificant by volume.

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But also being in a more dilated space would make them sent the same signal.

I believe relativity would beg to differ. The center of the moon would tick slower and be more dilated than the surface. The signal duration decrease is more likely to be GR clock speed increase (less dilated space energy c) than SR change in velocity. The signals should be less red shifted by GR also and not SR red shifted.

Science will have to realize electrons do not move themselves. There are only two choices. Mechanical transfer of motion or magic. c is a qualifier for motion of the electron and not the other way around. In the tree of knowledge science today is going down a branch that leads nowhere but the end of the branch. For true knowledge we need to remain on the trunk of the knowledge tree. But logically it does not matter whether we are on a branch or the trunk. it is the emotions that we follow for greater knowledge. Emotional logic forces us to be illogical in the face of logic.

I am not above average in intelligence but apparently I am below average in emotion. I do not have a God detector as many claim to have. and I do not believe in something for nothing as a logical interpretation of scientific views. Something moves the electrons. Something moves the photons. The electrons always measure the photons distance the same in a vacuum independent of the frame. So each are controlled by the same background. While this is true for logic it is not necessarily true for emotional logic.

#### Nilak

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #47 on: 15/11/2016 15:36:52 »
Gravity is a difference in dilations of space. This does cause attraction between masses. But the affect between the weight of the voyagers and the solar system is insignificant by volume.

That is what I thought initially. The Minkowski spacetime diagram presents the universe as a single 4d block. This creates the appearance of a static universe. My idea is that the time dimension is totally different. Energy conservation is along the time axis only. The time as a distance dimension is only a mathematical tool. The universe is not static. When you say 'bent spacetime' you think of fowllowing a curve in spacetime, and this is correct. But this deprive you intuitively by the idea of motion. Therefore gravity is not difference in space dilation. Gravity is relative motion of space structure. Gravity is caused by a  continuous process of space contraction and it is not a force itself. It doesn't follow the rules of newtonian forces. But this is what Einstein says but not quite explicitly when explaining GR. You simply follow the time line in a spacetime diagram and see that space contracts. When light is moving through this space its trajectory becomes curved.
You are saying "Gravity is a difference in dilations of space". "Difference in dilations" is not very clear. Dilation is not density, but a process of decreasing density.  Did you actually mean the same thing I've described? I've described it simply as a process of  space contraction.

Space dilation process is the opposite of gravity also known as antigravity. Negative mass is simply a structure that creates space dilation in all directions. Black Holes probably do that but only at poles. Since mass is given by space density multiplied by volume, negative mass is not mass but an energy that makes space dilate.

Where I said space density is mass, I wasn't quite correct. The number of points in a volume of space cannot be measured and is basically infinite. The volume of space can only be defined relatively. Mass of an object is the sum of all points of space it occupies. The points and their mass are infinitesimal, but the sum is a finite number. That is what mass essentially is.
« Last Edit: 15/11/2016 19:53:42 by Nilak »

#### Nilak

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #48 on: 15/11/2016 21:57:46 »
It turns out that this problem of mass as the source of gravity is not really a problem because Einstein field equations of GR don't  use the newtonian mass neither.
Acording to GR, the gravitational field is caused by stress-energy tensor. In newtonian gravity, mass density is the source.

Basically this part of GR seems to describe the reality very precisely.
Einstein doesn't deny the aether either. I understand he says that completely rejecting the existence of an aether deprives space from all the properties, making it a flat space and that is not true.

#### GoC

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##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #49 on: 16/11/2016 01:45:40 »
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That is what I thought initially. The Minkowski spacetime diagram presents the universe as a single 4d block. This creates the appearance of a static universe. My idea is that the time dimension is totally different. Energy conservation is along the time axis only. The time as a distance dimension is only a mathematical tool. The universe is not static. When you say 'bent spacetime' you think of fowllowing a curve in spacetime, and this is correct. But this deprive you intuitively by the idea of motion. Therefore gravity is not difference in space dilation. Gravity is relative motion of space structure. Gravity is caused by a  continuous process of space contraction and it is not a force itself. It doesn't follow the rules of newtonian forces. But this is what Einstein says but not quite explicitly when explaining GR. You simply follow the time line in a spacetime diagram and see that space contracts. When light is moving through this space its trajectory becomes curved.
You are saying "Gravity is a difference in dilations of space". "Difference in dilations" is not very clear. Dilation is not density, but a process of decreasing density.  Did you actually mean the same thing I've described? I've described it simply as a process of  space contraction.

Yes but our direction is reversed. The center of mass being the most dilated and space contracting to the surface of say a planet. You haven't accepted that something is moving electrons. Once you accept that space energy c is actually moving electrons in macro mass you will realize that energy is being dilated to follow Relativity.

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Space dilation process is the opposite of gravity also known as antigravity. Negative mass is simply a structure that creates space dilation in all directions. Black Holes probably do that but only at poles. Since mass is given by space density multiplied by volume, negative mass is not mass but an energy that makes space dilate

You would need to mechanically relate your ideas to relativity. How does each of your physical descriptions contribute in the process of Relativity mechanics?

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The points and their mass are infinitesimal, but the sum is a finite number. That is what mass essentially is.

That appears to be a logical statement.

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It turns out that this problem of mass as the source of gravity is not really a problem because Einstein field equations of GR don't  use the newtonian mass neither.
Acording to GR, the gravitational field is caused by stress-energy tensor. In newtonian gravity, mass density is the source.

What is your understanding of a stress energy tenser? To me the stress of moving electrons causes dilation of energy c. Different elements stress energy c differently. But there is an accumulation.

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Einstein doesn't deny the aether either. I understand he says that completely rejecting the existence of an aether deprives space from all the properties,

Rejecting a reason for relativity is a main stream issue that will not be resolved easily.

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: Space and matter concept
« Reply #49 on: 16/11/2016 01:45:40 »

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