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Author Topic: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?  (Read 2357 times)

Offline tkadm30

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Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« on: 20/10/2016 14:14:20 »
What are the implications of a global war scenario between the West and Russia? Do you think the elections in the US will spark a global conflict? Was the internet handover a strategic operation to repress political opinions about the risks of a nuclear war?


 

Offline tkadm30

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #1 on: 21/10/2016 12:14:20 »
What do you think?

Is it all pure propaganda or are the risks of a global conflict looming on the horizon?
 


Offline alancalverd

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #3 on: 24/10/2016 11:20:35 »
Humanity has already survived a nuclear war. Unfortunately, so did several priests, politicans and philosphers, so there is almost certain to be another one.

The result will, in the long term, be that a small number of people will be involved in devising ever more effective weapons paid for by the taxes of the vast number of morons who listen to  priests, politicains and philosophers instead of using their brains.

Even if we don't use nukes,  our species seems dedicated to bombing itself back to the Stone Age, both physically and intellectually.
 

Offline zx16

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #4 on: 24/10/2016 15:54:54 »
Doesn't it seem extraordinary, that since the first employment of nuclear weapons in 1945, we've made no subsequent use of these weapons?

I can't help feeling that we won't be able to restrain ourselves much longer. 
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #5 on: 24/10/2016 16:39:31 »
That's largely because no major geographical state has attacked any other directly. However it is only a matter of time before a nongeographic entity such as ISIS or Al-qaeda drops a nuke on Birmingham and brings civilisation to a close.
 

Offline zx16

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #6 on: 24/10/2016 17:03:29 »
Do you think the destruction of Birmingham would really bring civilisation to a close?  Even a devout "Brummie", might not go that far!
 

Offline tkadm30

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #7 on: 26/10/2016 11:23:38 »
That's largely because no major geographical state has attacked any other directly. However it is only a matter of time before a nongeographic entity such as ISIS or Al-qaeda drops a nuke on Birmingham and brings civilisation to a close.

ISIS and Al-qaeda are proxy terrorist organizations fabricated by the US in order to influence public opinions about the war propaganda. The reason theses terrorists organizations won't drop a nuke on New York is because they lack the technology for doing so. However, countries like Russia or North Korea have developed advanced ICBMs which can reach North America and create a thermonuclear apocalypse.

All I hope is that a political resolution can be achieved between the US and Russia in order to end the Syrian conflict.
 

Offline zx16

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #8 on: 26/10/2016 16:53:40 »
That's largely because no major geographical state has attacked any other directly. However it is only a matter of time before a nongeographic entity such as ISIS or Al-qaeda drops a nuke on Birmingham and brings civilisation to a close.

ISIS and Al-qaeda are proxy terrorist organizations fabricated by the US in order to influence public opinions about the war propaganda. The reason theses terrorists organizations won't drop a nuke on New York is because they lack the technology for doing so. However, countries like Russia or North Korea have developed advanced ICBMs which can reach North America and create a thermonuclear apocalypse.

All I hope is that a political resolution can be achieved between the US and Russia in order to end the Syrian conflict.

Yes, the US and Russia could soon end the Syrian conflict. If they agreed to launch a joint military invasion of the region. To rapidly suppress all the tiresome, squabbling factions.

Then, a new Syrian government could be installed. Fully and forcefully backed by the US and Russia.  It might be only a kind of "puppet" government, but wouldn't it be heartily welcomed by the vast majority of the long-suffering Syrian people?

« Last Edit: 26/10/2016 17:02:06 by zx16 »
 

Offline zx16

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #9 on: 26/10/2016 18:13:25 »
Humanity has already survived a nuclear war. Unfortunately, so did several priests, politicans and philosphers, so there is almost certain to be another one.

The result will, in the long term, be that a small number of people will be involved in devising ever more effective weapons paid for by the taxes of the vast number of morons who listen to  priests, politicains and philosophers instead of using their brains.

Even if we don't use nukes,  our species seems dedicated to bombing itself back to the Stone Age, both physically and intellectually.

When you say "humanity has already survived a nuclear war", are you referring to the two A-bombs dropped on Japan in 1945, in the closing phase of WWII?
Arguably, this could be said to make WWII a "nuclear war".  Because nuclear weapons were used during it.  But the "nuclear war" of 1945 was very small - only two tiny 20-kiloton fission weapons were employed.  And it was entirely one-sided, as Japan had no nuclear retaliatory capability of its own.   So that doesn't really count as a "nuclear war".  (It might've counted, if Japan had dropped a couple of A-bombs on LA and Seattle, in retaliation)

As for the future, I agree with you that our species is dedicated to bombing. We love it.  And we will do it again with nuclear weapons, once we've got over the psychological inhibition of "first use since 1945".

But once that inhibition has been broken, the weapons will be used exuberantly. Like, we've been freed to kill ourselves on a really massive scale!

That need not be a cause for pessimism.  Our present global population is 7+ billion.  So even if we kill 5 billion people in a global nuclear war, that'll leave still leave 2+ billion.  Which is close to what the world population was in 1950.


 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #10 on: 26/10/2016 21:41:07 »
Quote from: Albert Einstein, 1949
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.
 

Offline zx16

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #11 on: 26/10/2016 22:30:49 »
You and Einstein are too pessimistic.

World War IV might not be fought with with sophisticated weapons like ICBMS. But surely guns would still be around, even if they were only flintlock muskets.

A primitive retrogression to "sticks and stones" might take a few World Wars longer, don't you think?

 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #12 on: 26/10/2016 23:55:12 »
The reason theses terrorists organizations won't drop a nuke on New York is because they lack the technology for doing so.

You can rent an utterly reliable airborne delivery system for $150 per hour. Having seen what happens to civilisation when you blow up one big building in New York, I suspect the scum are encouraged to try a bigger bang. It's only a matter of time before Iran, North Korea or some other nuclear-capable entity stops playing with pointless megaton bombs and starts selling useful kiloton devices to a well-funded group of religious vermin. 


Quote
A primitive retrogression to "sticks and stones" might take a few World Wars longer, don't you think?
No. The most sophisticated military machine in history was defeated in Vietnam by a bunch of little guys with sharp sticks. Al-qaeda used Stanley knives to ensure the re-election of Bush and Blair, and make the western world cower in panic. Russia and Syria are demolishing entire cities to get rid of a few morons with Kalashnikovs. All future wars will be highly asymmetric, with no clear outcome apart from the destruction of all we have built over the last 20,000 years.   
« Last Edit: 27/10/2016 00:05:22 by alancalverd »
 

Offline zx16

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #13 on: 27/10/2016 00:43:21 »
Alan, I like your style.  A perfect blend of solid fact, and outrageous swivel-eyed fruit-loopery.

That's meant  as a compliment, by the way. Well, partially.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #14 on: 27/10/2016 23:09:51 »
Please point to the fruit-loops in reply #12.

Inicidentally and apropos the Birmingham scenario, you wouldn't even need a nuclear device to completely disrupt British society. Here's a true story

A few years ago I was concurrently chairman of a local Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament branch and Scientific Adviser to the Civil Defence organisation in the same region (it's called "hedging your bets", or "knowing what you are talking about"). I attended a Transition to War conference along with various other worthies charged with restoring order after World War III, including the other Scientific Adviser, a chemist of Polish extraction, with whom I had previously worked.

The Chief Constable outlined his orders for the week leading up to a gentlemanly nuclear conflict with the USSR. He was to empty the police cells of all minor villains ("minor" being defined as theft, assault, rape or murder) and to lock up a list of Fifth Columnists. Who, he was asked, is on that list? "Members of leftwing organisations, and people with foreign names". My colleague stood up and said  "So you are going to imprison and hold incommunicado the only two blokes who can save the lives of the survivors. I am sure everyone will applaud your patriotic act."   

Terrorism, at its best, is the apex of asymmetric warfare. I've rather lost touch with our beloved Home Office since that conference, but my guess is that national suicide is still considered to be the only alternative to surrender.

The War on Terror seems to consist of sending uniformed soldiers to become targets for snipers and bombers in Afghanistan, and until recently, prosecuting any British soldier who fails to respect the dignity and human rights of the bastard who has sworn to kill him. There will not be a WWIII: the west has already surrendered.   
« Last Edit: 27/10/2016 23:12:28 by alancalverd »
 

Offline Pseudoscience-is-malarkey

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #15 on: 29/10/2016 10:18:07 »
I think people like tkadm30 wish for it to happen. You know? To "pay for our sins" or whatever. It's a fantasy.
 

Offline tkadm30

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #16 on: 29/10/2016 10:30:35 »
I think people like tkadm30 wish for it to happen. You know? To "pay for our sins" or whatever. It's a fantasy.

Actually, I'm an atheist. However, perhaps world war III may be the solution for getting rid of chemtrails.

 
 

Offline tkadm30

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #17 on: 29/10/2016 11:09:03 »
Quote from: John F. Kennedy
It is an unfortunate fact that we can secure peace only by preparing for war.
 

Offline zx16

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #18 on: 29/10/2016 17:26:33 »
Please point to the fruit-loops in reply #12.

What disturbed me in your reply#12, was your reference to: "scum encouraged to try a bigger bang......religious vermin".
And in your earlier#3: "morons who listen to priests, politicians and philosophers".

Using terms like "scum", "vermin" and ""morons", does sound indicative of a kind of intemperance of attitude, which is associated with the fruit-loop crowd.

That's all I was getting at.  I just wish you wouldn't use such terms, as IMHO, they spoil your otherwise excellent and admirable posts. No offensive intended!
 

Offline zx16

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #19 on: 29/10/2016 20:10:10 »
Quote from: John F. Kennedy
It is an unfortunate fact that we can secure peace only by preparing for war.

JFK's quote is only a rehash of the old Roman maxim "Si vis pacem, para bellum" ((If you wish for peace, prepare for war).

But that's only a sophism. A vain attempt to evade the disgraceful fact that humans actually like fighting wars.  We don't really "wish for peace". War is in our blood. We're never happier than when we're "in action", fighting and killing each other.  It has an enormous attraction.  That's why we like watching war-movies, and playing war-related video games.

And it's why we give awards, such as the "Victoria Cross", or the "Congressional Medal of Honor", to men who have killed a lot of other men. The medals acknowledge our admiration for killing.

Now, nuclear war offers the opportunity to kill on a historically unprecedented scale.  Not just mowing down a few hundred men with a machine-gun, but blowing up entire cities, by dropping nuclear weapons on them, and killing hundreds of millions!  This has such an enormous appeal, that surely it can't be resisted much longer.  The non-use of nuclear weapons since 1945 seems bizarre and quite contrary to human nature.

Actually, I should rather say to "male" human nature.  Females are less obsessed with killing, as they have babies to nurture and bring up. So women probably wouldn't start a nuclear war.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #20 on: 29/10/2016 23:50:36 »


What disturbed me in your reply#12, was your reference to: "scum encouraged to try a bigger bang......religious vermin".
And in your earlier#3: "morons who listen to priests, politicians and philosophers".

Using terms like "scum", "vermin" and ""morons", does sound indicative of a kind of intemperance of attitude, which is associated with the fruit-loop crowd.


I am wholly intemperate, as all good men should be, when dealing with evil people. "By their deeds shall ye know them" but if someone has sworn to wipe your civilisation off the map, it's better not to wait before killing him. Animals that we kill on sight are called vermin. Humans who abandon human decency when told to by priests, politicians or philosophers, are morons. People who set out to kill indiscriminately are scum.

Perhaps you would have preferred a different outcome to World War II? Maybe you have forgiven the Inquisition? Were Stalin and Idi Amin just misunderstood? Does your club include members of Boko Haram?   
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #21 on: 29/10/2016 23:58:16 »
So women probably wouldn't start a nuclear war.

Apart, of course, from Margaret Thatcher, Theresa May, Benazir Bhutto, Indira Ghandi, and hopefully Hillary Clinton. To the best of my knowledge no other women have actually had their fingers on a nuclear button  but Sirima Bandaranaike and Golda Meir were potentially nuclear-capable and not known for their pacifism.

And if you want to quibble about "starting" a nuclear war you should be aware, as I'm sure each of the above ladies was, that there is no second prize in warfare.
« Last Edit: 30/10/2016 00:20:41 by alancalverd »
 

Offline tkadm30

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #22 on: 31/10/2016 19:40:29 »

So women probably wouldn't start a nuclear war.

We never know what is the main purpose of war in man. I hope the legacy of Obama will not be a pessimistic scenario.
 

Offline zx16

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #23 on: 31/10/2016 22:31:24 »

So women probably wouldn't start a nuclear war.

We never know what is the main purpose of war in man. I hope the legacy of Obama will not be a pessimistic scenario.

The main purpose of war in man, is to win by killing all rival males, then mate with the women.
The women want to mate with the winner, as he has shown superior genes by killing all the other weaker men.

What's Obama got to do with it?

 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #24 on: 01/11/2016 01:20:54 »

The main purpose of war in man, is to win by killing all rival males, then mate with the women.


Manifestly untrue. Your most significant sexual rivals are the guys nearest to you, especially the ones wearing the same uniform. And in modern warfare you kill not only males who are not a sexual threat (they have wives and girlfriends at home) but also females who might, to a more rational species, otherwise become a prize of war. The irrationality of man is that we can be persuaded by priests, politicians and philosophers, to kill other humans that present no threat or competition. And if you drop a nuclear bomb on the enemy your politicians have selected for you, the only survivors will be the fit young males that their politicians have put into hardend bunkers or dispersed to foreign fields as an army.   
 

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Re: Could humanity survive a nuclear war?
« Reply #24 on: 01/11/2016 01:20:54 »

 

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