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another_someone

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More clever monkeys
« on: 23/03/2007 23:40:11 »
Not so long ago, we had Chimpanzees using spears (http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6598.0), well, now we have capuchin monkeys using signalling devices (and we are not even talking about apes here, but plain vanilla monkeys).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6481795.stm
Quote
Research in Brazil has produced fresh evidence that primates may have something approaching human "culture".

A scientist has observed capuchin monkeys banging stones together, apparently as a signalling device to ward off potential predators.

The researcher says the animals appear to be learning this skill from each other - and even teaching incomers to the group how it should be done.

The research is reported in the scientific journal Folia Primatologica.

Dr Antonio Moura from the University of Cambridge, UK carried out his work in the Serra da Capivara National Park, in the Piaui state of north-east Brazil.

Hard alerts

The use of stone technology in foraging for food is well known in non-human primates; monkeys will use rocks to crack open nuts.

 But this may be the first time they have been seen using stones to create a noise to keep predators away, and warn one another of potential danger.

Dr Moura describes how the monkeys, as he approached several groups of them, would first search for a suitable loose stone, then hit it on a rock surface several times in an aggressive manner.

Only as they became more used to his visits over time did the stone-banging decrease.

Noisy lessons

The scientist said he saw adults and juveniles hitting the stones together without paying him any attention at all - suggesting that the younger monkeys were learning the skill from their elders.

What is more, captive monkeys released into the area to join the study animals appeared to learn to bang stones as well.

"Although banging objects is an innate behaviour in capuchin monkeys (Cebus apella libidinosus), in all wild groups observed so far it has been observed only in a foraging context," Dr Moura said.

"Stone-banging is a novel behavioural variant that is most likely learned socially. The absence of this display in other populations of capuchins, which have access to stones, suggests that stone-banging could be a social tradition in the population studied."


 

Offline neilep

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« Reply #1 on: 24/03/2007 02:34:26 »
Sapience or sentience ?..or both ?...or neither ?

Spears, stones, twigs to reach insects.......they are tool users.
 

Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #2 on: 24/03/2007 05:17:24 »
Yes I agree, Pbs had a special about the gorillas they have in the congo in New york Bronx Zoo in the illaborate rainforest congo they recreated to be a nice habitat for them. They were able to observe them using sticks on repeated occasions to reach the ants or grubs the were fishing out of an ant hill in the congo! It was one of the coolest shows I have watched in a long time!YAYYYYYYY!
 

another_someone

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« Reply #3 on: 24/03/2007 11:59:13 »
Yes I agree, Pbs had a special about the gorillas they have in the congo in New york Bronx Zoo in the illaborate rainforest congo they recreated to be a nice habitat for them. They were able to observe them using sticks on repeated occasions to reach the ants or grubs the were fishing out of an ant hill in the congo! It was one of the coolest shows I have watched in a long time!YAYYYYYYY!

Are you are they were gorillas and not chimpanzees - I thought gorillas were strict vegetarians (not even insect meat) - may be wrong about that, but that was my understanding.
 

Offline neilep

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« Reply #4 on: 24/03/2007 13:50:19 »
Lots of assumptions here !

Assuming we don't destroy ourselves....Assuming we don't destroy their habitat.....assuming they survive........it would be interesting to come back in a million years and see if these primates have developed even more so. Perhaps they are evolving and we are not !
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #5 on: 24/03/2007 16:11:01 »
Yes I agree, Pbs had a special about the gorillas they have in the congo in New york Bronx Zoo in the illaborate rainforest congo they recreated to be a nice habitat for them. They were able to observe them using sticks on repeated occasions to reach the ants or grubs the were fishing out of an ant hill in the congo! It was one of the coolest shows I have watched in a long time!YAYYYYYYY!

Are you are they were gorillas and not chimpanzees - I thought gorillas were strict vegetarians (not even insect meat) - may be wrong about that, but that was my understanding.

http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/info-books/gorilla/diet.htm

Why the hell is there a page about gorillas on the SeaWorld website? I didn't think they were aquatic  ???

Anyway, you will note from that site that only the Eastern Lowland Gorilla is strictly vegetarian. The others eat either termites & ants or some invertebrates.

Say "Thank you, Doc"  :D
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #6 on: 24/03/2007 16:20:23 »
OK, so I have a strange sense of humour but does anyone else think that the Latin name here makes this funny?
"Although banging objects is an innate behaviour in capuchin monkeys (Cebus apella libidinosus)"
 

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« Reply #7 on: 24/03/2007 16:34:23 »
One must concede that it is somewhat risible
 

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« Reply #8 on: 24/03/2007 16:35:05 »
And just to be pedantic, why have gorillas been mentioned in a post about monkeys?  [:o)]
 

Offline neilep

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« Reply #9 on: 24/03/2007 16:47:10 »
And just to be pedantic, why have gorillas been mentioned in a post about monkeys?  [:o)]

heresy !!.....sacrilege !!....blasphemy !!..orf with their heads !!
 

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« Reply #10 on: 24/03/2007 17:24:58 »
And just to be pedantic, why have gorillas been mentioned in a post about monkeys?  [:o)]
heresy !!.....sacrilege !!....blasphemy !!..orf with their heads !!

I wouldn't go quite that far. Just lock them in a room with Westlife. Oh, hang on... that's be worse!  [:I]
 

Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #11 on: 24/03/2007 17:29:16 »
Yes I agree, Pbs had a special about the gorillas they have in the congo in New york Bronx Zoo in the illaborate rainforest congo they recreated to be a nice habitat for them. They were able to observe them using sticks on repeated occasions to reach the ants or grubs the were fishing out of an ant hill in the congo! It was one of the coolest shows I have watched in a long time!YAYYYYYYY!

Are you sure they were gorillas and not chimpanzees - I thought gorillas were strict vegetarians (not even insect meat) - may be wrong about that, but that was my understanding.

http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/info-books/gorilla/diet.htm

Why the hell is there a page about gorillas on the SeaWorld website? I didn't think they were aquatic  ???

Anyway, you will note from that site that only the Eastern Lowland Gorilla is strictly vegetarian. The others eat either termites & ants or some invertebrates.

Say "Thank you, Doc"  :D

Thank you doc! LOL

 And george I am pretty sure it was gorilla's but who knows I may be mistaken, It's been years sense my anthropology classes,* Smiles*.. I will check PBS and see if I am mistaken or not... after all I am human and prone to err! LOL!

I really find it interesting that these little monkeys are being studied and that they also are using tools as the other primates are. I know Gorillas were not the topic but I also find it interesting to see this in more then one species of primates.

OH NO I needs me head.. What is westlife Neily?
« Last Edit: 26/03/2007 01:39:06 by Karen W. »
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #12 on: 24/03/2007 17:42:35 »
Westlife are a sickly Irish boyband  [xx(]
 

paul.fr

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« Reply #13 on: 24/03/2007 17:58:36 »
this one's not a clever monkey.

 

Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #14 on: 24/03/2007 19:08:55 »
Westlife are a sickly Irish boyband  [xx(]

Thanks Doc!

this one's not a clever monkey.



Certainly not, I really do not like cigarettes!
 

another_someone

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« Reply #15 on: 24/03/2007 20:39:47 »
Lots of assumptions here !

Assuming we don't destroy ourselves....Assuming we don't destroy their habitat.....assuming they survive........it would be interesting to come back in a million years and see if these primates have developed even more so. Perhaps they are evolving and we are not !

It would not make sense to assume that any ape or monkey would be able to supercede humans in their position in the environment.

Humans are too well entrenched in their position to be replaced.  Whatever species replaces humans it will have to do it in a totally different way to the way humans do it.  Whatever species it is would be a species very different from humans, almost certainly a species we would regard with disdain because it will not be good at doing thing the way humans do it, but would do things totally differently, in a way that we would in our own narrow perspective think to be inferior to the human way of doing things.

But I think you are also wrong to say that humans are not evolving.  Just look at the human population today, and look at that same population 400 years ago across the globe, and I think it would not be difficult to see the differences (not only changes in clothes and technology, but changes in height, in IQ, in resistance to diseases, and even changes in the mix of races across the globe).
 

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« Reply #16 on: 24/03/2007 21:41:43 »
My God..they look almost human.

 

Offline neilep

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« Reply #17 on: 24/03/2007 21:49:23 »
Lots of assumptions here !

Assuming we don't destroy ourselves....Assuming we don't destroy their habitat.....assuming they survive........it would be interesting to come back in a million years and see if these primates have developed even more so. Perhaps they are evolving and we are not !

It would not make sense to assume that any ape or monkey would be able to supercede humans in their position in the environment.

Humans are too well entrenched in their position to be replaced.  Whatever species replaces humans it will have to do it in a totally different way to the way humans do it.  Whatever species it is would be a species very different from humans, almost certainly a species we would regard with disdain because it will not be good at doing thing the way humans do it, but would do things totally differently, in a way that we would in our own narrow perspective think to be inferior to the human way of doing things.

But I think you are also wrong to say that humans are not evolving.  Just look at the human population today, and look at that same population 400 years ago across the globe, and I think it would not be difficult to see the differences (not only changes in clothes and technology, but changes in height, in IQ, in resistance to diseases, and even changes in the mix of races across the globe).

I have not said that humans are not evolving at all !!

...in fact I have defended the fact that we are many times......

I have also not made any claims about us being superseded by these primates.........read my words again !..

I agree with what you say entirely and make no claims based on what you assumed I have said.
 

another_someone

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« Reply #18 on: 24/03/2007 22:06:27 »
Sorry if I have misunderstood your words, but ...

I have not said that humans are not evolving at all !!

You did not say that humans are not evolving (nor did I state that you had said that), but your statement ...

Perhaps they are evolving and we are not !

does seem to me to clearly speculate upon the possibility that we are not evolving.

I have also not made any claims about us being superseded by these primates.........read my words again !..

Again, you did not explicitly state so, but a projection of the idea that they might be evolving, and we are not, would imply that a time might come where they had evolved 'beyond us' (but I accept that this is an inference, not an explicit statement, and my apologies if it was an inference you had not intended).


I agree with what you say entirely and make no claims based on what you assumed I have said.

I never suggested you had made any claims, only that you appeared to have been speculating upon certain scenarios - my apologies if that was not the speculation you were making.

I will admit that the last couple of days I have been scarcely able to keep my eyes open (although no good reason for such), so it is possible that I am making more mistakes than usual (is that possible).
 

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« Reply #19 on: 24/03/2007 22:15:18 »
Hugs the George....luffs the George.
 

Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #20 on: 25/03/2007 08:32:16 »
Sorry if I have misunderstood your words, but ...

I have not said that humans are not evolving at all !!

You did not say that humans are not evolving (nor did I state that you had said that), but your statement ...

Perhaps they are evolving and we are not !

does seem to me to clearly speculate upon the possibility that we are not evolving.

I have also not made any claims about us being superseded by these primates.........read my words again !..

Again, you did not explicitly state so, but a projection of the idea that they might be evolving, and we are not, would imply that a time might come where they had evolved 'beyond us' (but I accept that this is an inference, not an explicit statement, and my apologies if it was an inference you had not intended).


I agree with what you say entirely and make no claims based on what you assumed I have said.

I never suggested you had made any claims, only that you appeared to have been speculating upon certain scenarios - my apologies if that was not the speculation you were making.

I will admit that the last couple of days I have been scarcely able to keep my eyes open (although no good reason for such), so it is possible that I am making more mistakes than usual (is that possible).

George have you been experiencing some rather bad ensomnia! Are you ok or burning the candle at both ends? Please take care and get some rest!
 

Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #21 on: 25/03/2007 09:00:48 »
Hey George and Neil here is the link to the Gorilla Congo in New Yorks Bronx Zoo! It is incredible. I really want to fly there and see this place one day! I loved Anthropology in high school and think it very interesting even now. Take the tour it is really cool. Here is the link!


http://www.congogorillaforest.com/congohome
« Last Edit: 25/03/2007 09:02:55 by Karen W. »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #22 on: 25/03/2007 13:29:59 »
"And just to be pedantic, why have gorillas been mentioned in a post about monkeys? "
Just to be even more pedantic, why the mention of humans in a post about monkeys?
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #23 on: 25/03/2007 14:53:08 »
My God..they look almost human.





Yes, they do!  :D
« Last Edit: 25/03/2007 14:54:39 by DoctorBeaver »
 

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