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Author Topic: Embryonic Stem Cells and Ethics  (Read 6775 times)

Offline Titanscape

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Embryonic Stem Cells and Ethics
« on: 07/06/2007 06:11:17 »
I write as a voice of ethics for the ones without a voice, the human embryos.

I completely prefer non embryonic stem cell research.

People have rights expressed because they speak or others for them, even grown people who are silenced can be used unjustly like Moldovans and Russians as spare parts.

I hold that human embryos have eternal life, and in this world the potential to grow into the full form of humans.

To use them for spare parts is unjust and unspirititual. I know this is contentious and was voted for in Australian parliment. But I am against it. I don't want spare parts from these undeveloped voiceless people.

You can call it religious, a voice for the orphans here.

I believe in the human spirit. Justice and ethics... How are others thinking on this matter?


 

Offline kdlynn

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Embryonic Stem Cells and Ethics
« Reply #1 on: 07/06/2007 06:22:27 »
i agree completely. once the egg and sperm get together, it is a human baby, and it hasn't done anything to anyone to deserve that kind of treatment.
 

Offline _Stefan_

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Embryonic Stem Cells and Ethics
« Reply #2 on: 07/06/2007 07:08:51 »
I agree. Stem cells from the umbilical cord are just as useful...
 

paul.fr

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Embryonic Stem Cells and Ethics
« Reply #3 on: 07/06/2007 09:36:59 »
I write as a voice of ethics for the ones without a voice, the human embryos.


Is this just an anti-abortion topic in disguise? The above wording is anti-abortion rhetoric


I completely prefer non embryonic stem cell research.

People have rights expressed because they speak or others for them, even grown people who are silenced can be used unjustly like Moldovans and Russians as spare parts.


What! where are moldovans and Russians being used as spare parts? Are you talking about their embryos or organs?


I hold that human embryos have eternal life, and in this world the potential to grow into the full form of humans.

To use them for spare parts is unjust and unspirititual. I know this is contentious and was voted for in Australian parliment. But I am against it. I don't want spare parts from these undeveloped voiceless people.

You can call it religious, a voice for the orphans here.

I believe in the human spirit. Justice and ethics... How are others thinking on this matter?

How do embryos have eternal life?

you say you are against embryonic stem cells, so does that mean you prefer adult stem cells? These are not just from "adults". Adult stem cells are available in high quantities in cord blood also, and i think this is where most of the testing is from.

As i said previously the comments expressed here seem like religious anti-abortion rhetoric.

what about the stems cells left over from ivf? they are used when they would otherwise be disguarded

even the bible does not say life begins at conception or when a sperm meets an egg. what the bible says is that life begins with the first breath.

Quote

Genesis 2:7
      God's last acts of Creation was that God formed man and woman. First God created man's body. Everything was in place but it was lifeless. Next God, started man's heart, and lungs to function and man came alive. God was the source of life, although the material man was made of was lifeless matter of the earth it only became a "living being" when God put life into it. God breathed in man's nostrils the breath of life.

« Last Edit: 07/06/2007 10:11:07 by paul.fr »
 

Offline hawaiilover

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Embryonic Stem Cells and Ethics
« Reply #4 on: 07/06/2007 09:41:04 »
Two points: first embryonic stem cells are totipotent, meaning they can multiply and become and kind of cell, including more stem cells.

Other forms of cells, such as pluripotent, (can become any cell except stem cells) and multipotent,(can become only a few kinds of cells, such as heart tissue for example) are less usefull.

Adult stem cells are multipotent, while embryonic are totipotent, meaning that embryonic are more usefull in terms of research and treatment development.

Second and most important point:

The embryos used in embryonic stem cell research are all derived from excess embryos that were created for Invitro fertilization.

How this works is as such:

At a clinic a woman's eggs are surgically removed and then the male's sperm is collected and injected into several of the eggs. These are allowed to divide in a petri dish for some time.

Later some, but not all of the eggs, are implanted into the uterus and everyone waits to see if the woman is pregnant. If she is, the remaining embryos are placed into storage, ie frozen, in case the couple wants kids later and in case the sperm and eggs of the couple have degraded over the years.

The fertilized embryos are kept frozen at the clinic, for which the couple is charged for the storage.

If and when the couple decides they are finished having kids, and no longer wish to keep paying for storage the embryos are thrown out, adopted or used for embryonic stem cell research.

Here is what everyone in this debate needs to keep in mind.

There are over 400,000 embryos thrown out each year in the US. 20% of those are adopted, meaning they are implanted into donor woman, and the rest are discarded, or, with consent of the couple, donated for research.

ALl those who claim that embryonic stem cell research is evil should remember that those embryos, while technically alive, are not viable unless adopted, meaning they will die, either by embryonic stem cell research, or by being thrown away.

So by not doing research no fewer embryos are killed, but their deaths are in vain.

This is why people who oppose embryonic stem cell research frustrate me. They are either ignorant of the facts or disingenous by choosing to ignore them.

If you believe that killing fertilized embryos, (zygotes) is truelly wrong then you must oppose invitro fertilization.

Which means that you must demand that government ban it, ban allowing infertile couples to start families.

This will not ever happen, because fertility clinics are rightfully seen as doing great work, helping people have kids.

But as long as fertility clinics do invitro they will produce excess zygotes that will be destroyed in some manner.

So either opponents demand invitro clinics shut down, or laws are passed mandating that all excess zygotes be implanted.

But this would also be unethical. Unless the government paid women to adopt zygotes, but how much? 80% currently go unadopted, over 300,000 each year.

Would $1000 be enough to find wombs for them all? Probably not.
$10,000, perhaps a large percentage but not all.
$50,000? That would probably do it, but it would cost $15 billion annually and who would pay? Tax payers? Clinics?

If the latter than clinics would have to charge couples more and the cost for invitro can already run over $100,000 because it often takes several implantations and many months of trying.

(This is why, by the way, several zygotes are created at once, because to create one at a time for each try would result in the costs skyrocketing to absolutely insane levels)

Now, one could advocate that invitro clinics be forced to only make 1 zygote at a time for implanation, or pay for woman to adopt them, but then you will be limiting the ability of many tens of thousands of couples to have kids.

Then there is the fact that even implanting 1 zygote at a time, the majority of them will not result in preganancy, a percentage much higher than the rate at which zygotes created in fallopian tubes fail to attach to the uterin wall.

This means that, even if a clinic, to prevent excess zygotes being created, implants just one fertilized egg a time, several zygotes implanted this way will die.

So is it ethical to even allow invtro fertilization? If you create just one fertilized egg, that you know will most likely die, isn't that murder?

So shouldn't invitro clinics be shut down? If you are truely against destroying embryos, than you must say yes!

Thus the opponents of embryonic stem cell research must, if they truely believe their own rhetoric, stop bitching about embryonic stem cell research and attack the source of the embryos, invitro fertility clinics!

Each and every child created in these clinics results in several dead embryos! (remember they implant several at once time, but usually just 1 or 2 babies are born)

So either all you opponenets of stem cell research are willing to tell infetile couples, that, though we have the tech to help you start a family, we'll put anyone who uses it in prison, or you tacitly approve, through inacction the deaths of millions of fertilized embryos.

Since no one is calling for the banning of invitro, all those who oppose embryonic stem cell research are either disengenous liars, who know that the embryos will be destoyed either way but pretend that sceintists create them in labs for the sole reason to harvest stem cell, or are ignorant of where embryos come from.

Oh and as for umbilical cord cells, they are pluripotent, which is better than adult cells, but still not as usefull.

Lets remember these facts when we debate the issue please, that's all I ask.

 

paul.fr

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Embryonic Stem Cells and Ethics
« Reply #5 on: 07/06/2007 09:51:20 »
hawaiilover.

thank you for this information, i recently lost all of my data on this and many other things. It is well known that my memory is poor, so thank you again.

this debate is mainly fueled by ant-abortionists, religious nuts and the ill /misinformed. i wish they would real and realise the facts before they come out with their nonsense.
 

paul.fr

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Embryonic Stem Cells and Ethics
« Reply #6 on: 07/06/2007 10:16:24 »
there are many articles on the main website, about stem cells. here is one:

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/interviews/interview/533/
 

Offline that mad man

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Embryonic Stem Cells and Ethics
« Reply #7 on: 07/06/2007 16:31:32 »
Sorry I have to disagree with some of what is said.

I do not believe that a the joining of egg and sperm constitutes a human baby, a developing human foetus yes.

Just like making a cake, the ingredients are important but the cake is not finished until baked.

Bee
 

Offline Titanscape

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Embryonic Stem Cells and Ethics
« Reply #8 on: 08/06/2007 05:41:00 »
I saw a report on a Moldovan man who to survive and keep his family well, had to sell and organ on the black market. Selling through a corrupt DR in Turkey I think. There was a considerable mark up. I think his kidney eventually sold for $50,000 US.

And I heard a well know international news report of a Russian grandmother who was caught selling her grandson on the black market for spare parts.

Human zygotes are human spirits to the christian, synergy of parents coming from God's breath. They continue to exist.

Materialists, who call us "religious nutters" only see feelings and hear force of personality, honour is visible but spirit, is not. And the soul is evident as why we are aware of self others and materials, but not it's continuation beyond the death of the nervous system. So crash victims who are brain dead are called, "just vegetables". A waste of life support money. Yes honestly I have not put too much thought to it, but begin here.

Even the late outspoken millionaire or billionaire athiest, Kerry Packer noted that in his NDE there was nothing, he percieved nothing, time just went by.

Isn't there some way in vitro can be done without excess?

I know this is a losing battle, for my dear patriots and beautiful Polish and Latvian girls are being imported as sex slaves and are popualr with crowds of dark characters, who come to be pleasured at the girls' great expense. Thirty men a day... They will represent the opposite of the voice for the orphan and silent weak ones. Exlpoiters. Full grown girls and weak rights, lost of passports and they line up to exploit them. These evil entrepreneurs together rake in billions each year.

But in Britain there is a voice for them, as in other places, statutes, police actions, excellent!

I think I am into spirituality over religion, and think that nobility and altruism, and benevolence is ideal.

I don't want to benefit at others loss, pleasure or medicine or longer life... I want clean prosperity and a clear conscience and name. To face God in prayer hoping to be, planning to be or actually standing just and successful.

I am ill prepared to speak to people suffering without unethical medicine, but wish everyone would go all for the ethical, even if less useful, and progress faster in it, we'd be ahead now if there was no dispute. True?

What about Gorilla embryos?

« Last Edit: 08/06/2007 05:47:44 by Titanscape »
 

Offline _Stefan_

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Embryonic Stem Cells and Ethics
« Reply #9 on: 08/06/2007 09:43:06 »
So Gorillas don't have 'spirits'? Is that why it would be ethical to use their embryos for stem cells, instead of ours? 8)

_______________________________________________________


The issue with using embryos for stem cells or other purposes is that the embryos are alive. Life is precious.
Biologically speaking, most of the cells in our bodies are each the equivalent of those single zygotes we began life as. To say that the zygote isn't 'human' is technically incorrect.

Lol Paul, the bible's authors didn't know about the union of sperm and egg, did they?
 

paul.fr

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Embryonic Stem Cells and Ethics
« Reply #10 on: 08/06/2007 09:54:59 »

Lol Paul, the bible's authors didn't know about the union of sperm and egg, did they?

if you follow the teachings of the bible then life does not begin at the union of the sperm and egg. end of story realy.

As the science develops, the technology will become more accepted by the population. http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/news/news/662/
 

Offline Titanscape

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Embryonic Stem Cells and Ethics
« Reply #11 on: 08/06/2007 15:54:47 »
Stefan, I personally think animals have spirits, but we can "kill and eat" them no ill conscience.

Embryos could be a great evil if accepted as medicine instead of with dignity.

I know from seeing interviews that traditional people would rather not have such medicines.

A zygote is a new individual, as Gwen sings ...life it never ends". Life doesn't come into a baby when it has it's first breath or has the beginning of cogniscience. It is more demanding on the wit and conscience. It begins at conception.

It seems you are a materialist, not looking for life but security.

We don't want coersion to unethical medicines and economic systems. Like the mark of the beast in Revelations, NT.
 

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Embryonic Stem Cells and Ethics
« Reply #11 on: 08/06/2007 15:54:47 »

 

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