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Poll

Do you think Gays have Rights? (To marry etc..)

Yes - Allowed to raise adopted baby
6 (60%)
Yes - But not allowed to raise any babies
4 (40%)
No - NOTHING IS ALLOWED
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Author Topic: Gay Rights.. Agree or Disagree?  (Read 5284 times)

Offline Seany

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Gay Rights.. Agree or Disagree?
« on: 15/06/2007 15:43:09 »
Personally, I think that gays do have rights. But, I don't think that they should be allowed to adopt a child, to raise. What state would that child be in, when he grows up?

Another child may ask.. "Oh so hows your mum and dad?"

What will that person say.. "Oh.. I have a male mum and a male dad"

Or.. They will have to lie about it!! Awful.....

Just my opinion ;)


 

Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #1 on: 15/06/2007 17:27:01 »
 I think they have the rights. I know many and they are marvelous parents in a day when some children have no one or parents who don't give a darn one way or the other. if they are in a loving nurturing envionment there is no problem as far as I can see any more then there would be with straight parents.. I know couples raising children this way and have not had that be an issue the children are great with it and the parents have taught them that either way was great and what they have concentrated on in their homes have been love and kindness..It has worked great and some are grown and wonderful human beings!
 

paul.fr

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Gay Rights.. Agree or Disagree?
« Reply #2 on: 15/06/2007 20:04:24 »
Personally, I think that gays do have rights. But, I don't think that they should be allowed to adopt a child, to raise. What state would that child be in, when he grows up?

Another child may ask.. "Oh so hows your mum and dad?"

What will that person say.. "Oh.. I have a male mum and a male dad"

Or.. They will have to lie about it!! Awful.....

Just my opinion ;)

Seany, this used to happen with single parents back in the 70's. Kids would get picked on for only having a mum or dad, some would feel awkward saying they only had the one, and there was a stigma attached. It is no different to the now, except that instead of having 1 mum or dad you have two.

Studies have even been made in to wheather kids growing up in a gay household are more likely to "become" gay or even be abused. No evidence has been found to suggest they will.

Please do not take this personally, but i think this is a rather foolish question.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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Gay Rights.. Agree or Disagree?
« Reply #3 on: 15/06/2007 20:07:23 »
I know a lesbian couple who are raising a child 1 of them had by a previous partner. They are doing a fabulous job. The child does well at school, is polite & well-mannered, and often brings friends home (the child is an 8-year-old girl).
 

paul.fr

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Gay Rights.. Agree or Disagree?
« Reply #4 on: 15/06/2007 20:20:49 »
I know a lesbian couple who are raising a child 1 of them had by a previous partner. They are doing a fabulous job. The child does well at school, is polite & well-mannered, and often brings friends home (the child is an 8-year-old girl).

Exactly, Doc.
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #5 on: 15/06/2007 20:34:50 »
This thread brings to mind the Harry Enfield sketch with Wayne & Waynetta. Waynetta tells Wayne she thinks they should split up because their kid is being picked on at school for having a dad living at home. All the other kids on the estate only have a mum.

I know it's a comedy sketch, but I think it demonstrates the change in society's attitude to parenthood. When I was at school I can only remember 1 kid in my year who was from a single-parent family. If I remember rightly that was because his dad had died. These days I know of more single-parent families than 2-parent families.

Through recent work I have had a lot of contact with people given emergency accommodation by the local council's homeless dept. The vast majority were young, single mums. And when I say young, I mean young. 1 or 2 were in their early 20s but mostly they were 16-19. 1 of them was a 17-year-old single mum with a 2-year-old child.
 

another_someone

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Gay Rights.. Agree or Disagree?
« Reply #6 on: 15/06/2007 21:17:19 »
As Paul says, it is a slightly naive question.

There are lots of different family arrangements for bringing up children, and there always has been.  In the past, if a child was orphaned, and the child's bachelor uncle suggested he would be willing to undertake the bringing up of the child, nobody thought to prohibit it.

I think it is a different question as to whether institutions should of themselves refuse to give the child over for adoption to a gay couple, and whether the State should prohibit gay couple's from adopting.  I think that threatening to shut down a religious institution because it will only pass children for adoption to heterosexual couples is biting off one's nose to spite one's face.  The priority should be to maximise the number of adoptions made to any competent and caring persons willing and able to bring up a child who would otherwise be left in an institution.  If one organization specialises in adoption amongst one group (e.g. heterosexual couples), while another organisation specialises in a different group (e.g. homosexual couples), then so be it; but shutting either of them down because they are unwilling to take a broader approach to their adoptions seems foolish.

Ofcourse, as Kadie and I were discussing elsewhere, any family breakup will always leave the child with some insecurity, and the nature of the family that adopts them may well have an influence upon the child when they grow up.  I know the argument that is that there is no evidence that children brought up in homosexual environments are more likely to be homosexual, and while I accept that it should not alter the probability of a predisposition to homosexuality, I cannot imagine that it would not alter the probability of their displaying different learned behaviours.  I would also doubt that we really have adequate evidence as to what the actual effects are.  But, the point is, aside from the question as to whether an increased in displayed homosexual behaviour is a good or bad thing, one in any case has to strongly bear in mind what the alternatives are?  The kind of questions about whether heterosexuals should or should not take precedence over homosexual couples might be a question worth asking if their was a surfeit of suitable prospective adoptive parents and a shortage of children available for adoption.  I may be wrong, but I am not at all sure that this is the situation we have.

Even if there was a surfeit of prospective adoptive parents, one still has to ask whether sexuality is more important than other factors (that is assuming it is taken into account at all).

One also has to ask, to what extent should whether the couple who are adopting a child are in a sexual relationship of any kind be pertinent to the adoption (should the adoption authorities be looking at bedroom behaviour at all)?  Should a man and a woman who live together but never actually have sex be prohibited from adopting a child (they are technically not a heterosexual couple in any physical sense)?
 

jolly

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Gay Rights.. Agree or Disagree?
« Reply #7 on: 16/06/2007 21:37:55 »
As Paul says, it is a slightly naive question.

There are lots of different family arrangements for bringing up children, and there always has been.  In the past, if a child was orphaned, and the child's bachelor uncle suggested he would be willing to undertake the bringing up of the child, nobody thought to prohibit it.

I think it is a different question as to whether institutions should of themselves refuse to give the child over for adoption to a gay couple, and whether the State should prohibit gay couple's from adopting.  I think that threatening to shut down a religious institution because it will only pass children for adoption to heterosexual couples is biting off one's nose to spite one's face.  The priority should be to maximise the number of adoptions made to any competent and caring persons willing and able to bring up a child who would otherwise be left in an institution.  If one organization specialises in adoption amongst one group (e.g. heterosexual couples), while another organisation specialises in a different group (e.g. homosexual couples), then so be it; but shutting either of them down because they are unwilling to take a broader approach to their adoptions seems foolish.

Ofcourse, as Kadie and I were discussing elsewhere, any family breakup will always leave the child with some insecurity, and the nature of the family that adopts them may well have an influence upon the child when they grow up.  I know the argument that is that there is no evidence that children brought up in homosexual environments are more likely to be homosexual, and while I accept that it should not alter the probability of a predisposition to homosexuality, I cannot imagine that it would not alter the probability of their displaying different learned behaviours.  I would also doubt that we really have adequate evidence as to what the actual effects are.  But, the point is, aside from the question as to whether an increased in displayed homosexual behaviour is a good or bad thing, one in any case has to strongly bear in mind what the alternatives are?  The kind of questions about whether heterosexuals should or should not take precedence over homosexual couples might be a question worth asking if their was a surfeit of suitable prospective adoptive parents and a shortage of children available for adoption.  I may be wrong, but I am not at all sure that this is the situation we have.

Even if there was a surfeit of prospective adoptive parents, one still has to ask whether sexuality is more important than other factors (that is assuming it is taken into account at all).

One also has to ask, to what extent should whether the couple who are adopting a child are in a sexual relationship of any kind be pertinent to the adoption (should the adoption authorities be looking at bedroom behaviour at all)?  Should a man and a woman who live together but never actually have sex be prohibited from adopting a child (they are technically not a heterosexual couple in any physical sense)?

Yeah, the arguement that children brought up in a ´gay´ household, will cause the child to be gay is rediculas. Most homosexuals are raised in heterosexual households are they not!
And it is wrong to assume that, a gay couple couldnt raise a child as well as a heterosexual couple, I, as with dr beaver have known gay couples who raise children and they do a great job, in the end children need to be loved and shown that they are cared for!
There are a lot of heterosexual couples who shouldnt be allowed to raise children and do, Drunks ect. Some in the church would rather see a child raised by horrible heterosexuals than ´gays´, but that is a horrific attiude and very un-intelligent.
 
Heterosexual couple will only do as good a job a they feel they should, some wont care, some will, but with homosexual couples there is a presure on them which if anything would only drive them to be better parents, thought it might make them spend more time worrying!

I feel break-ups only affect the child, if the child is used as a porn with-in the break-up. If the child is shown love and respect through the break-up then there should be no long term damage done- sadly though, that often doesnt happen; it is not the break-up itself but how the child is treated that will affect the child!
 
I feel homosexuals should be allowed to adopt, as with all adoptions you have to make sure that they will be good parents, that is to say, they will raise the child with love and give it a good education, and help the child go out into the world as a well rounded individual, hopefully free of any problems the child may have acrued before it was adopted.

With regards to the bedroom stuff, it´s just the ignorant heterosexuals who think that all homosexuals have strange parties etc...lol So silly, most homosexuals live lives very similer to everyone else, they just go home to someone of the same sex.


     
« Last Edit: 16/06/2007 21:39:34 by jolly »
 

Offline Karen W.

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Gay Rights.. Agree or Disagree?
« Reply #8 on: 16/06/2007 21:57:21 »
 I agree! Children need love nourishment and support. It does not matter what the caregivers sexual orientation is as to weather or not he or she or they can provide a safe loving nurturing environment! Bad Parents come in all life situations weather you be gay or straight.. You can be a bad parent or a good parent makes no difference who your partner is.. what does make a difference is weather there is love in your teaching and modeling. Love the children for Gosh sakes and Yourselves, everything else will fall into place!!!
 

Offline ukmicky

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Gay Rights.. Agree or Disagree?
« Reply #9 on: 17/06/2007 00:41:10 »
Seany

I don't think its a silly, naive or foolish question and as a child (sorry)young person you are in a unique position compared to most of us on this forum and therefore can tell it like how a young person would feel if put in certain situation. Its the childs opinion which is important in this respect not the adults .


I believe a lot of the problems we have today are due to children not having the correct role models in their homes. Single parent families or Gay parent families are not good in my opinion as the child will miss out on either a male or female role model and will fail to learn certain life skills. For instance Men are generally harder than females and tend to ensure that children follow the rules,be in by 8 pm etc. Think about the difference between men and women and think what a kid will miss out on if he is brought up with either the dad or mum missing.


I'm not saying single parents cant be good parents, what I'm saying is they cant be something their not. A kid needs a mum & dad, not just a mum or just a dad or two mums or two dads ,but one of each and when finding parents or should i say role models for children through adoption the children in my mind have the right to expect to be placed in a home where they are not going to miss out any of them important life skills which only a man and women together can teach.
« Last Edit: 17/06/2007 01:14:09 by ukmicky »
 

Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #10 on: 17/06/2007 07:00:34 »
I understand where you are coming from. I can see points on both sides, but, There are thousands and thousands of children in institutions and temporary foster homes waiting for a family people they can bond with and call theirs.There are not enough people adopting these children and they are lacking what they need to help them be happy well adjusted children. They need a sense of belonging and to be loved.. The facts are homosexuals  are people just like you and I. They are just as capable of love as any of us heterosexuals. Regardless as to what the family unit consists of for someone else, there will always be male and female role models in a child's life..if a child lacks a father or a mother figure due to sexual roles in the home, they will have those role models in society and extended families, aunts uncles, grandparents... Frankly I have always found in most relationships like this that I have personally seen, one or the other parent is more or less authoritative or disciplinarian already. I have seen that be the case. You don't have to be a father to be the disciplinarian.. in my house I am the disciplinarian , because my husband being a great guy, does not know how to carry through or be firm and hold his ground, nor does he know when to be more lax and relaxed. I have always done it he prefers not too. So it not that a male is born being the disciplinarian  or tough guy.. LOL you never met my Grandma! LOL anyway I know plenty of men who are mild mannered very meek wonderful fathers.. I also no many wonderful mothers who play both parts equally well some because they have too some because thats the way it is in their family unit. The way they like it and it works wonderfully.

How is your poll going Seany?
 

another_someone

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Gay Rights.. Agree or Disagree?
« Reply #11 on: 17/06/2007 07:52:52 »
I believe a lot of the problems we have today are due to children not having the correct role models in their homes. Single parent families or Gay parent families are not good in my opinion as the child will miss out on either a male or female role model and will fail to learn certain life skills. For instance Men are generally harder than females and tend to ensure that children follow the rules,be in by 8 pm etc. Think about the difference between men and women and think what a kid will miss out on if he is brought up with either the dad or mum missing.


I know of a good number of parents where the mother was the tougher and stricter of the two (particularly when one is dealing with father/daughter relationships - but even in father/son relationships, I know fathers who would not fit your model, yet make good fathers).

I think what you have to realise is that every couple, whether in their marriage or their parenting, is unique, because people are unique, and if they are at all sensible, they will not try and fit into standard stereotypes of what father/mother or husband/wife should be, but will negotiate roles that fit in with their own strengths and weaknesses as unique people.

As I have mentioned before, I was brought up (from the age of 4) in what is commonly regarded as a one parent family (I say commonly regarded because in fact for many years we lived with my grandmother, and in many ways I always regarded my mother to have more of a paternal role, and my grandmother, who was always more feminine than my mother, to have the more maternal role).

I don't think that the lack of a father as such was a problem, but the insecurity caused by the breakup of the family, and the fact that there was no role model for how people negotiate long term intimate relationships.  Had my father stayed at home, I doubt it would have been better, since all that would have given is a role model for a failed relationship in a different way (in some ways, one of his problems was that he was running away from the role model his parents gave him of a marriage that stayed together even when it had long ago failed, and he did not want to repeat the failures of his parents, just as in not wishing to repeat the failures of my parents, so I have generally been very circumspect about getting into any relationship since that is the best way of avoiding the failure of a relationship).

None of this would have anything to do with the sexuality of my parents, whatever that may be; but is to do with the inability of my parents to negotiate a relationship that they could make function for them and for the family.  It is the learning of these unspoken negotiating skills that are the important issue, not what exactly the relationship should look like.  Relying on particular stereotypes to define one's relationship does not provide that answer.
 

Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #12 on: 17/06/2007 07:56:57 »
 I agree.
 

Offline ukmicky

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« Reply #13 on: 18/06/2007 00:24:52 »
No sorry i believe the best and most balanced environment for a child to grow up in is one with a mother and father.

Males and females can both take on the roles of father and mother if required but the average dad would not be able fill the role of the average Mum as well as your average mum or vice versa.
 

another_someone

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« Reply #14 on: 18/06/2007 01:05:05 »
No sorry i believe the best and most balanced environment for a child to grow up in is one with a mother and father.

I think you have missed the most important point that Karen and I have been saying.

The best environment a child can grow up with is with their birth parents, but the kids in question are no longer in a position of having the best environment; so the question is, is it better to have them growing up in an institutions, or with lots of temporary foster parents, or with a gay couple.

Whatever you may think of gay couples, you have to start by accepting that we are not dealing with an ideal world, so in a less than ideal world, do these people make better parents that the less than ideal alternatives available?

The reality, when you are looking at the placement of children, the first priority has to have nothing to do with the rights of the parents (gay or otherwise), but about finding the least bad alternative still available to those children.

So the question must be, whatever your reservations about children being brought up by a gay couple (and given that a gay couple will never be the natural birth parents of the child, then I too would have my reservations, but most of those reservations would also apply to heterosexual adoptive parents); is it really worse than the not very nice alternatives that in reality await that child if enough adoptive parents cannot be found for the children needing them?
 

Offline Carolyn

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« Reply #15 on: 18/06/2007 04:02:53 »
Seany - although I do not share your opinion on gay rights regarding children, I do agree with Michael that your question is NOT silly, foolish or naive. Hope you continue asking questions about whatever is on your mind.
 

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Gay Rights.. Agree or Disagree?
« Reply #15 on: 18/06/2007 04:02:53 »

 

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