# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Here's a little teaser - infact a lot of a teaser.  (Read 3612 times)

#### maff

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 24
##### Here's a little teaser - infact a lot of a teaser.
« on: 21/06/2007 22:47:09 »
If you remember one of Einsteins papers about living near the edge of a gravitational mass could keep you young ie a black hole. Both your biological and atomic clock would slow down near to this mass or form of acceleration.
A scientist decides to perform an experiment. He places a probe near to a huge gravitational mass where he knows it will slow down both biological and atomic time on this probe. The probe has a laser gun, a mirror and a clock which he can see from his spaceship. He then places the exact same type of probe the same distance from his spaceship but out of the influence of the gravitational mass. He notices right away that the clock on the probe placed near to the mass is running slower than the uninfluenced clock by half. Two hours pass and the clock on the probe near the mass is showing 1'oclock while the uninfluenced clock is now at 2'oclock. All is well with Einsteins theory up to now.
He then decides to measure the speed of light and to see if gravity can slow light speed down because theories suggest light speed is not relative and he wants to confirm this. So he fires a small pulse of light from the probe near the mass to the uninfluenced probe and waits for it to hit it's mirror. After 10 seconds of his own clock and the clock on the unfluenced probe, the pulse is seen to hit the mirror. He then looks back at the probe near the mass and sees it's clock has only advanced 5 seconds. He reverses the experiment and sees from the clocks that the result is the same.
From the probe's clock near the mass, the journey took 5 seconds and from the clock of the uninfluenced probe it took 10 seconds.
From an onlookers point of view the speed of light measured from the probe near the mass has doubled the speed of light from the uninfluenced probe and the spaceship. What lessons can be learned here and what has actually happened here?
..maff
« Last Edit: 22/06/2007 14:30:26 by maff »

#### Soul Surfer

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3345
• keep banging the rocks together
##### Here's a little teaser - infact a lot of a teaser.
« Reply #1 on: 22/06/2007 16:23:21 »
There are many serious errors in the fomulation and description of this "problem" that make it totally invalid as a thought experiment.

It is just not possible to remain stationary in close proximity to a powerful gravitiational source for any lemgth of time without the expending of an unrealistic amount energy or mass.  It is therefore essential for the probe to be in orbit around the object and travelling with a velocity close to that of light.  Similarly the spaceship and the other probe would have to be in orbits with different periods and velocities further from the gravitiational mass.

These motions will cause a lot of doppler effect and there will also be the gravitational blue and red shifts as beams of light pass through and across the gravititional fields.  The beams will also be bent by the gravitiational fields and not travel on straight lines

The description of the experiment is also faulty because "seeing" light strike the mirror implies information has passed along the channel instanteneously and not at the speed of light maybe one might time a reflected beam returning.

#### maff

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 24
##### Here's a little teaser - infact a lot of a teaser.
« Reply #2 on: 22/06/2007 17:10:17 »
We all know the experiment is scientifically impossible to acheive. It is an exaggerated scenario in which it is much easier to explain as a concept. The concept is that the onlooker see's two worlds colliding in which light speed trys to be the common denominator between the two worlds but fails. It demonstates that light speed is not interchangable between different existances.
please don't take mind experiments as they appear literally, they are fiction created to stimulate thought and explain certain criteria.
..maff

#### lightarrow

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 4586
• Thanked: 7 times
##### Here's a little teaser - infact a lot of a teaser.
« Reply #3 on: 23/06/2007 22:50:21 »
If you remember one of Einsteins papers about living near the edge of a gravitational mass could keep you young ie a black hole. Both your biological and atomic clock would slow down near to this mass or form of acceleration.
A scientist decides to perform an experiment. He places a probe near to a huge gravitational mass where he knows it will slow down both biological and atomic time on this probe. The probe has a laser gun, a mirror and a clock which he can see from his spaceship. He then places the exact same type of probe the same distance from his spaceship but out of the influence of the gravitational mass. He notices right away that the clock on the probe placed near to the mass is running slower than the uninfluenced clock by half. Two hours pass and the clock on the probe near the mass is showing 1'oclock while the uninfluenced clock is now at 2'oclock. All is well with Einsteins theory up to now.
He then decides to measure the speed of light and to see if gravity can slow light speed down because theories suggest light speed is not relative and he wants to confirm this. So he fires a small pulse of light from the probe near the mass to the uninfluenced probe and waits for it to hit it's mirror. After 10 seconds of his own clock and the clock on the unfluenced probe, the pulse is seen to hit the mirror. He then looks back at the probe near the mass and sees it's clock has only advanced 5 seconds. He reverses the experiment and sees from the clocks that the result is the same.
From the probe's clock near the mass, the journey took 5 seconds and from the clock of the uninfluenced probe it took 10 seconds.
From an onlookers point of view the speed of light measured from the probe near the mass has doubled the speed of light from the uninfluenced probe and the spaceship. What lessons can be learned here and what has actually happened here?
..maff

I think you know GR says that space-time is warped by a massive object.
What this means is that every object, light too, are forced to move in a space-time trajectory which is different from the one they would take in the absence of such massive body.

If light speed would be different there, it would mean that light wouldn't travel in the space-time.

But, where else could it travel?

#### maff

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 24
##### Here's a little teaser - infact a lot of a teaser.
« Reply #4 on: 23/06/2007 23:26:46 »
Light speed can never pass or overtake infinity, it can only equal it because light speed is infinate. Anything that governs how fast a Universe expands also governs how fast infinity reduces. Infinity can never reduce because of the nature of what it is, niether can the speed of light reduce. Which means all things are the same size always and distance doesn't exist. Einstein knew this.

#### Soul Surfer

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3345
• keep banging the rocks together
##### Here's a little teaser - infact a lot of a teaser.
« Reply #5 on: 24/06/2007 09:53:08 »
You're talking pure rubbish again maff and we all know it. So either talk sensibly or go away.

#### maff

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 24
##### Here's a little teaser - infact a lot of a teaser.
« Reply #6 on: 24/06/2007 17:01:39 »
You're talking pure rubbish again maff and we all know it. So either talk sensibly or go away.
Ok I will keep it sensible lol

#### jolly

• Guest
##### Here's a little teaser - infact a lot of a teaser.
« Reply #7 on: 24/06/2007 17:36:57 »
If you remember one of Einsteins papers about living near the edge of a gravitational mass could keep you young ie a black hole. Both your biological and atomic clock would slow down near to this mass or form of acceleration.
A scientist decides to perform an experiment. He places a probe near to a huge gravitational mass where he knows it will slow down both biological and atomic time on this probe. The probe has a laser gun, a mirror and a clock which he can see from his spaceship. He then places the exact same type of probe the same distance from his spaceship but out of the influence of the gravitational mass. He notices right away that the clock on the probe placed near to the mass is running slower than the uninfluenced clock by half. Two hours pass and the clock on the probe near the mass is showing 1'oclock while the uninfluenced clock is now at 2'oclock. All is well with Einsteins theory up to now.
He then decides to measure the speed of light and to see if gravity can slow light speed down because theories suggest light speed is not relative and he wants to confirm this. So he fires a small pulse of light from the probe near the mass to the uninfluenced probe and waits for it to hit it's mirror. After 10 seconds of his own clock and the clock on the unfluenced probe, the pulse is seen to hit the mirror. He then looks back at the probe near the mass and sees it's clock has only advanced 5 seconds. He reverses the experiment and sees from the clocks that the result is the same.
From the probe's clock near the mass, the journey took 5 seconds and from the clock of the uninfluenced probe it took 10 seconds.
From an onlookers point of view the speed of light measured from the probe near the mass has doubled the speed of light from the uninfluenced probe and the spaceship. What lessons can be learned here and what has actually happened here?
..maff

What are you really getting at- Time is experienced the same for you which ever time zone your in. If you could see the other time zone then it would either move fast or slower depending. But should you be in either then it would be the same as it is now(time-wise)!

#### maff

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 24
##### Here's a little teaser - infact a lot of a teaser.
« Reply #8 on: 26/06/2007 23:39:50 »
If you remember one of Einsteins papers about living near the edge of a gravitational mass could keep you young ie a black hole. Both your biological and atomic clock would slow down near to this mass or form of acceleration.
A scientist decides to perform an experiment. He places a probe near to a huge gravitational mass where he knows it will slow down both biological and atomic time on this probe. The probe has a laser gun, a mirror and a clock which he can see from his spaceship. He then places the exact same type of probe the same distance from his spaceship but out of the influence of the gravitational mass. He notices right away that the clock on the probe placed near to the mass is running slower than the uninfluenced clock by half. Two hours pass and the clock on the probe near the mass is showing 1'oclock while the uninfluenced clock is now at 2'oclock. All is well with Einsteins theory up to now.
He then decides to measure the speed of light and to see if gravity can slow light speed down because theories suggest light speed is not relative and he wants to confirm this. So he fires a small pulse of light from the probe near the mass to the uninfluenced probe and waits for it to hit it's mirror. After 10 seconds of his own clock and the clock on the unfluenced probe, the pulse is seen to hit the mirror. He then looks back at the probe near the mass and sees it's clock has only advanced 5 seconds. He reverses the experiment and sees from the clocks that the result is the same.
From the probe's clock near the mass, the journey took 5 seconds and from the clock of the uninfluenced probe it took 10 seconds.
From an onlookers point of view the speed of light measured from the probe near the mass has doubled the speed of light from the uninfluenced probe and the spaceship. What lessons can be learned here and what has actually happened here?
..maff

What are you really getting at- Time is experienced the same for you which ever time zone your in. If you could see the other time zone then it would either move fast or slower depending. But should you be in either then it would be the same as it is now(time-wise)!
Light speed cannot be a demoninator between Infinities and cannot pass between different existances which is the same thing. As infinity folds inward or outward light cannot pass between those infinities without destroying those concepts.
..maff

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Here's a little teaser - infact a lot of a teaser.
« Reply #8 on: 26/06/2007 23:39:50 »