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Offline GBSB

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« on: 03/07/2007 21:52:46 »
The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy

More than one century is established unquestionable scientific truth that the only cause of scurvy is a diet that is lacking in an adequate amount of vitamin C.
On the other side some available evidence shows that absence of fresh vegetable and fruits and as well C vitamin, doesnít play any role in outbreak of scurvy.
Three century long scurvy was common sailorís disease. In same time there is no any reliable evidence that show any outbreak of scurvy on the land.
 
For example; Eskimos and most population on north hemisphere lived just fine eating virtually no fruits and vegetables during long their winters.

The Mongols didnít eat fruit and vegetable at all. Taking in account that they conquered nearly whole known world at those time we can make conclusion that the Mongols where in very good health without fruits and vegetables in their diet.

Scurvy disappeared on the end of nineteen and beginning of twenty of century, in same time when big, stabile on the water, steam powered ships replaced smaller wind powered ships.

Did scurvy disappeared because of adequate amount of vitamin C in sailors diet or because of introducing steam powered ships that was much bigger in size and because of bigger size they are  more stabile on the water.

What do yo think? Is it any ground to question the established wisdom about cause of scurvy and the healings properties of vitamin C?

Luka Tunjic


 

Offline Bored chemist

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #1 on: 04/07/2007 21:19:14 »
This statement "In same time there is no any reliable evidence that show any outbreak of scurvy on the land." isn't true.
It's perfectly possible to produce scurvy on dry land here and now. Like humands (indeed, primates in general) guinea pigs cannot produce vitamin C. If their diet doesn't contain enough vitamin C they get scurvy. It would be pointlessly cruel to repeat this just to prove a point but the experiment was done countless times while they were working out how to extract ascorbic acid from food in order to identify it.
Anyway, it seems that people keeping pets are sometimes careless (or ignorant) of this fact.
http://www.guinealynx.com/scurvy.html
Unless you are saying that the guinea pigs all go sailing at night then there's a big hole in your theory.
There's another problem too. Some of the trials of fresh fruit (and other things) were done at sea and they succeeded. How would that work? did feeding sick sailors lemons make the boat more stable for them than for their less fortunate shipmates?

If that's not convincing enough then how about the fact that the biological role of ascorbic acid as a co factor in the conversion of (IIRC) proline to hydroxyproline as a precursor of collagen is now well researched.
 

Offline GBSB

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #2 on: 04/07/2007 23:50:58 »
Bored chemist, thanks for your comment.

I know that questioning the cause of scurvy is equal blasphemy.
On the other side I find plenty evidence that shows that something is wrong with this theory that is accepted as scientific fact.
It is plenty to discus about rewriting of history and fraud in science done to strength a belief about cause of scurvy and cause for disappearance of scurvy.
But for beginning let see some fact about unquestionable scientific truth that say ďhumans body is unable to synthesise vitamin C. 

Many times we have been heard that humans are not able to synthesize vitamin C. It is established us unquestionable scientific truth that humans are not able to synthesize vitamin C.

Here is link that shows that humans are able to synthesize vitamin C.

Quote
Scurvy in pregnant and lactating women and infants

Pregnant women with low vitamin C intakes are not known to give birth to a scorbutic infants.
Studies of breast-feeding women also indicate not only the freedom from scurvy in their infants, but also a larger amount of vitamin C in their milk than the women themselves consume daily.
Secretion into milk seems to have high priority in maternal vitamin C economy; concentrations up to 48 times higher than in maternal plasma have been found in breast milk (Salmenpera, 1984).
Infants had plasma concentrations 6Ė12 times higher than corresponding maternal concentrations.
There is an obvious adaptive preventive effect against vitamin C deficiency even among infants whose mothersí nutrition is marginal (Salmenpera, 1984).
No symptoms of scurvy have been known to appear in infants breast-fed by malnourished mothers with very low concentrations of vitamin C in their milk (Deodhar et al., 1964).
One study showed that the mean infant/maternal plasma concentration ratio was 2 during delivery
and appeared to be similar or higher during lactation (Salmenpera, 1984).
Surprisingly, infantsí plasma concentration continued to rise despite the decreasing concentration of vitamin C in milk.
This maintenance of high plasma concentration in infancy suggests that a high concentration is necessary during infant growth.
The fetal brain is reported to contain a concentration of vitamin C several times higher than the adult brain (Adlard et al., 1974).
A study undertaken by Rajalakshmi et al. (1965) showed that pregnant women in India who were ingesting less than 10 mg of vitamin C per day were in fact secreting 15Ė30 mg of the vitamin in their milk while showing no clinical
signs of scurvy.
These findings suggest that the human breast and placenta might be able to synthesize some vitamin C (Hodges, 1980).

© World Health Organization, 1999


http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/1999/WHO_NHD_99.11.pdf


Does anyone still think that humans body is not able to synthesize vitamin C.

P. S.
Understanding real cause and underlining mechanism of the scurvy will enable to understand real cause and underlining mechanism of many nowadays illnesses and disease and will enable us to understand real cause and underlining mechanism of AIDS.

 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #3 on: 05/07/2007 20:34:29 »
"On the other side I find plenty evidence that shows that something is wrong with this theory that is accepted as scientific fact."
Well, you have shown some evidence that a small fraction of humans (specifically, pregnant women) are able to make vitamin C. This doesn't particularly suprise me. Plenty of metabolic pathways get switched on and off at various times during life. The best known examples are puberty (where various hormone productions get switched on) and the loss of the abillity to digest lactose after infancy in some people. In any event, this document (also by WHO)
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/1999/WHO_NHD_99.11.pdf
indicates that pregnant women lose vitamin C reserves so the case is far from proven.

Since most people are not pregnant there is little to be said for this fact in terms of scurvy in the population in general. It indicates that some alternative to vitamin C administration for the treatment of scurvy might be possible. If you couldd swicth on this pathway in the rest of the population (assuming it exists) then you could cure scurvy. An interesting idea but useless. Lemons will be cheaper.


It clearly has nothing to do with AIDS which has been shown to be caused by HIV (It seems a small number of people happen to be immune for some reason; this has no more importance than the fact that, while I never seem to get flu, it does exist and it's caused by a well documented virus).
As I have said, the relation betwen vitamin C and scurvy is very soundly established; you need to disprove that link before you can say that we have any grounds to doubt it. After that, then please feel free to put forward theories about HIV/ AIDS (but keep in mind that they will probably be attacked even more vigourously than this one about scurvy.)

In the meantime please answer the points about the guinea pigs and the shipboard experiments about scurvy.
« Last Edit: 05/07/2007 20:40:00 by Bored chemist »
 

Offline GBSB

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #4 on: 06/07/2007 16:10:22 »
Bored chemist, thanks for your comment. I know that are plenty evidence available that lead us to conclusion that deficiency of vitamin C is cause of the scurvy. On the other side if we take this evidence a little a bit under scrutiny than this evidence appear as counterevidence.

I will try to explain my opinion about “shipboard experiments about scurvy”. and examples of scurvy by guinea pig will leave for later.

If we take a little bit under scrutiny world’s first ever clinical trial, we can find some strange things.

Quote
The crucial experiment Lind performed in 1747 at sea on the Salisbury, was to take twelve seamen  suffering from the same degree of scurvy and divide them into six groups of two each.  In addition to their regular diet, he gave each group a different, commonly used treatment for scurvy and observed its action.  One group received a quart of cider daily, the second group received twenty-five drops of dilute sulfuric acid three times a day,  the third group was given two spoonfuls of vinegar three times a day, the fourth team drank half a pint of seawater three times a day, the fifth received a concoction of garlic, mustard seed, horseradish, gum myrrh, and balsam of Peru.  The last group received two oranges and one lemon daily for six days.  These last two men improved with such astonishing rapidity that they were used as nurses to care for the others.  There was slight improvement in the cider group but no benefit was observed in the others.
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/stone/chap1-11.htm
Quote
“One group received a quart (two pints) of cider daily”
It shows that in reality the two sick men are forced to consume excessive amount of cider.

Quote
“the second group received twenty-five drops of dilute sulfuric acid three times a day”
How much was diluted we don’t know but is serious consideration that this trial, two people already sick was slowly poisoned for six days

Quote
“the third group was given two spoonfuls of vinegar three times a day”
If you force strong healthy people to consume two spoonfuls of vinegar three times of day, it will make everyone sick.

Quote
"the fourth team drank half a pint of seawater three times a day”
Two people already sick was forced to drink one and half pint of see water for sex days. Where is the logic to force somebody to drink sea water? Drinking one and half pint of see water will everyone sick.

Quote
“the fifth received a concoction of garlic, mustard seed, horseradish, gum myrrh, and balsam of Peru”
This mixture was given to two already sick people knowing that this “concoction” has laxative property.

Quote
The last group received two oranges and one lemon daily for six days.

Two oranges and one lemons for six days versus six days long of slow poisioning.

And his experiment is now regarded as the world’s first ever clinical trial….???

Quote
Salisbury was still in that area on 20 May when Lind’s experiment began, eight weeks after leaving port. He picked twelve men for a six-way comparison of cider, elixir of vitriol, vinegar, sea water, oranges and lemons, and a purgative mixture. A tenth of the crew by now had scurvy, so he had 30 or 40 individuals to choose from. Yet the roll call shows at most one or two as sick during this entire voyage on which six men “departed this life”.
http://www.jameslindlibrary.org/trial_records/17th_18th_Century/lind_biog/salisbury_commentary.html

On the voyage that Lind conducted first medical trial the six people died from scurvy.

It has striking similarity with “operation was successful – but patient died” 

Quote
To understand clinical trials, it may be helpful to review the very first one in medical history. The year was 1746, the investigator, Dr. James Lind, a British navy surgeon. In those days, scurvy was a common and serious problem for sailors on long sea voyages. Dr. Lind believed he could cure the disease with citrus fruits. To test his theory, he divided his sailors into six groups; one got a normal ship’s diet while the others received supplements of cider, sea water, vinegar, elixir of vitriol, or lemons and oranges.

After several months at sea, Dr. Lind’s theory proved correct. The sailors who ate citrus fruit recovered; all the others remained ill with the abnormal bleeding and diseased gums, hair, and skin characteristic of scurvy. http://hmiworld.org/hmi/issues/May_June_2002/around_prostate.html

How it can be proved after several months when he runs out of citrus in just six days.

And question is when he believed that citrus can prevent and cure scurvy why he didn’t took more citrus on ship , why only 12 oranges and 6 lemons?

« Last Edit: 06/07/2007 21:02:42 by GBSB »
 

Offline iko

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #5 on: 06/07/2007 16:46:52 »
Hi Luka,

I don't see the point of analysing in detail Lind's experience as a pioneer of proper clinical trials.
Surely it had been great for those old days and it is frequently cited as an example, mostly because in the following centuries medicine had all sort of troubles and misfortunes before finding a proper scientific 'path'.

You may die from scurvy even today, I am afraid.
It is still a serious matter and a major issue in malnutrition, and malnutrition itself is reported to cause approximately 50% of the total mortality in children all over the world.

Quote
"Now we know that 50 percent of all deaths of young children in the world are due to malnutrition," Habicht says. "It's also because of illness, but if they were nourished, they would have survived. Looking at it that way makes a big difference in how you allocate resources."

click here for the complete article:  http://www.nutrition.cornell.edu/news/s00/habicht0500.html

To start from the beginning may help sometimes, but -in my opinion- I don't think this is the case.  In contrast, to join in the discussion, I'll post one of the most recent reports of clinical scurvy.

In this brand new century for a change.




Infantile scurvy: an old diagnosis revisited with a modern dietary twist.

Burk CJ, Molodow R.Pediatric Dermatology, University of Miami, Miami, Florida 33125, USA. cynthiajburk@yahoo.com

Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is necessary for the formation of collagen, reducing free radicals, and aiding in iron absorption. Scurvy, a disease of dietary ascorbic acid deficiency, is uncommon today. Indeed, implementation of dietary recommendations largely eradicated infantile scurvy in the US in the early 1900s. We present a case of an otherwise healthy 2-year-old Caucasian girl who presented with refusal to walk secondary to pain in her lower extremities, generalized irritability, sleep disturbance, and malaise. The girl's parents described feeding the patient an organic diet recommended by the Church of Scientology that included a boiled mixture of organic whole milk, barley, and corn syrup devoid of fruits and vegetables. Physical examination revealed pale, bloated skin with edematous, violaceous gums and loosening of a few of her teeth. Dermatologic findings included xerosis, multiple scattered ecchymoses of the extremities, and perifollicular hemorrhage. Laboratory and radiographic evaluation confirmed the diagnosis of scurvy.

The patient showed dramatic improvement after only 3 days of treatment with oral ascorbic acid and significant dietary modification.
 
In this case report, we revisit the old diagnosis of scurvy with a modern dietary twist secondary to religious practices. This case highlights the importance of taking a detailed dietary history when evaluating diseases involving the skin.

Am J Clin Dermatol. 2007;8(2):103-6.


« Last Edit: 06/07/2007 17:21:20 by iko »
 

Offline iko

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #6 on: 06/07/2007 16:59:19 »
...and another case, 7yr boy, just cereal, without any fruit or veggies...
plus bleeding gums picture if you click down here:

http://student.bmj.com/issues/01/08/reviews/minjun23.jpg



A 7-year-old boy was admitted with a sore mouth, bleeding gums, and painful knees. Further examination showed gum hyperplasia, flaky skin, perifollicular bleeding, and telangiectasia around the nose and ears. His diet consisted of mostly cereal, with no fruit or vegetables. His vitamin C concentration was less than 1.0 ϭol/l (normal is >32 ϭol/l). Subsequent investigations showed other nutritional deficiencies, including vitamin A and trace elements (copper, zinc, and selenium). His oral lesions completely resolved with dietary changes and vitamin C supplementation. Poor dietary intake of vitamin C is a rare cause of childhood scurvy in developed countries, and as nutritional deficiency diseases rarely occur in isolation, other deficiencies should be sought.

A J Thompson, senior registrar, H J Steen, consultant, A J M Reid, locum consultant, department of child health, Queen's University of Belfast, Institute of Clinical Science, Belfast BT12 6BJ
studentBMJ 2001;09:261-304 August ISSN 0966-6494



http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetailsKids.aspx?p=335&np=307&id=1491#9
« Last Edit: 05/04/2009 15:13:16 by iko »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #7 on: 12/07/2007 21:08:08 »
I don't think 2 pints of cider a day is excessive, it's pushing it for the current guidelines on drinking but it's not a huge consumption. I certainly know people who drink that much, indeed over the weekend I will average a lot more than 2 pints a day.
The other "treatments", while bizzare, were accepted ways of treating scurvy at the time. Modern clinical trials compare the effect of a new treatment against the effect of an established treatment. This is no different to what happened back on the ship. For what it's worth most of those treatments were based on a rather simplistic idea that scurvy was due to a failed acid/ base balance. Given that hypothesis the treatmenst made sense.
If I thought it would help to point out failings of medical testing then the next thing I'd ask is why were the nursing mothers and pregnant women in the reports you first quoted not given vitamin C. I wouldn't like to have to get that past an ethics committee today. It's probaly cheaper to give vitamin C tablets than to measure the levels in blood accurately.
The fact is that in the case of the sailors getting lemons their symptoms improved dramatically. In the cases that didn't the symptoms continued to worsen. They all fell ill with scurvy before they got any of these "treatments" so you can't blame that for the cause of the disease.

Laxatives were commonly used to treat all sorts of illnesses- the idea was to purge toxins from the body. It's a fine theory but it's now known to be wrong. They didn't know that at the time; arguably it would have been poor science not to try all the treatments in use.

How else can you explain
1 At sea many men slowly succumbed to scurvy- some faster than others.
2 A group of men with scurvy were split up and given different treatments
3 Those getting citrus fruit recovered but the others didn't.
without saying that the citrus fruit (which are relatively expensive and don't keep very well so you wouldn't have many of them on a ship) treated the disease.
If the disease reapeared when the fruit ran out that's just more evidence for the benefit of the fruit.
 You can't say "it was the vitriol (or whatever) that caused the scurvy" because they got the illness before they were given the vitriol (or...).
Subsequent experiments have shown that other plants (like spruce needles) used to treat the problem have high levels of vitamin C
Again I feel I have to ask, what do you think causes scurvy if it isn't a lack of vitamin C? The idea that the decline in scurvy is due to big stable ships makes no sense; plenty of people got scurvy on land (prisoners were particularly prone to it).
 

Offline ukmicky

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #8 on: 13/07/2007 00:58:59 »
I saw a program on this a long time ago as their wasnt much else to do at 3 o clock in the morning. During it i finally got to find out why us british got the name limeys.

It was a derogatory term  given to us by the Americans who didnt like us much at the time. They called us lime-juicers now shortened to limeys and was due to all the fruit and fruit juice britsh sailors used to consume to combat the scurvy.

Maybe if they were nice to us and didnt call us names we would have told them our secret as to why we were drinking all the fruit juice in the first place and many american sailors wouldnt have died of scurvy :)
 

Offline iko

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« Reply #9 on: 16/07/2007 19:19:19 »
...There are only two vital cofactors, vitamins if you prefer, biochemical catalysts that our body cannot synthesize and even stock in large amounts: vitamin B1 or thiamine and vitamin C or ascorbic acid.
Our little storage capability as far as these two substances are concerned explains why food in our diet must constantly have enough thiamine and ascorbic acid.
Deficiency dieseases from lack of one of these cofactors, beriberi and scurvy respectively, start earlier than in any other vitamin shortage, after a few weeks on a deficient diet.

So we should not be surprised reading that those poor sailors of the past had to suffer from both types of vitamin deficiency!

from:      Thiamine deficiency and its prevention an control in major emergencies

...
It was frequently reported among sailors arriving in all the large ports in the United States at the turn of the century.
The term 'ship beriberi' was often used since in the West most of the thiamine deficiency cases were seen on ships.
Studies document the appearance of the disease on a total of 158 different ships involving 947 persons of whom 147 died.   Macpherson (1966) reported that at the turn of the century when scurvy had disappeared in the Norwegian merchant navy due to the provision of lime juice, white bread was introduced in place of the dark rye bread, and 'ship beriberi' became common,especially on long voyages. 
He also reports on an elderly captain who didn't get the disease since he preferred his rye bread to the white bread, who could cure his sailors who contracted the disease by providing them with rye bread.
...





exhaustive free full-text:  http://www.helid.desastres.net/?e=d-000who--000--1-0--010---4-----0--0-10l--11en-5000---50-about-0---01131-001-110utfZz-8-0-0&a=d&cl=CL1.9&d=Js2900e.2


« Last Edit: 17/09/2007 15:08:22 by iko »
 

Offline GBSB

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #10 on: 17/07/2007 00:54:50 »
Iko,
thanks for interesting post. I find particularly interesting that thiamine deficiency was reported mostly on the ship, however I didnít find this on link that you posted but I looked just briefly and I hope I will find later. I find it worthy to discus.

But for now I like to point that people in 1497 already know that citrus can cure the scurvy but not always.

Quote
One of the earliest outbreaks of scurvy at sea was sustained by the crew of Vasco da Gama during his 1497 expedition to India. Da Gama began his expedition from Lisbon on July 9, 1497, with a fleet of 4 ships and a crew of 140 men. It took them 6 months to round the Cape of Good Hope. By the time da Gama's crew landed on the southeast coast of Africa, most of them were afflicted with scurvy. Da Gama recorded: "Many of our men fell ill here, their feet and hands swelling, and their gums growing over their teeth so that they could not eat." As they sailed farther up the east coast of Africa, they met local traders, who traded them fresh oranges. Within 6 days of eating the oranges, da Gama's crew recovered fully and he noted, "It pleased God in his mercy that ... all our sick recovered their health for the air of the place is very good."
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/108/4/e76

This case shows that eating orange for 6 days long was enough to achieve full recovery from scurvy for everyone that was affected by scurvy. On this example it is clear that orange (vitamin C) are effective to cure scurvy.

But by second outbreak of scurvy it seems that something strange happened.
 
Quote
From India, da Gama returned across the Arabian Sea. Within 12 weeks of sailing, his crew was again afflicted and weakened by scurvy. Da Gama commented: "We addressed vows and petitions to the Saints ... it pleased God in his mercy to send us a wind which in the course of six days, carried us within sight of land ... at this we rejoiced as ... we hoped to recover our health there as we had done before ... the Captain-Major sent a man on shore to bring off a supply of oranges which were much desired by our sick." Da Gama lost more than half of his crew by the end of his journey. His crew sustained scurvy when they had been at sea for 10 weeks or more. They recognized oranges to be an effective antiscorbutic by the second outbreak. The experience of da Gama in dealing with scurvy did not become common knowledge, and over the next several centuries, scurvy remained as the scourge of the sea explorers. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/108/4/e76

It seems that by second outbreak of scurvy the oranges wasnít so effective to cure scurvy and Wasco Da Gama lost more than half of his crew.
 
Question is; why by the first outbreak of the scurvy oranges was effective to counteract to the scurvy and why by the second outbreak wasnít?

However, I couldnít find for sure why he lost half of his crew but from some other example I have made assumption that by of second outbreak of scurvy citrus didnít help too much to cure scurvy.
But if anybody has more information why Wasco De Gama lost more than half of his crew it will be useful for this discusion.

Luka Tunjic
http://biomechanicsandhealth.blogspot.com/
« Last Edit: 17/07/2007 01:04:34 by GBSB »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #11 on: 17/07/2007 19:59:20 »
I interpret this
"His crew sustained scurvy when they had been at sea for 10 weeks or more. They recognized oranges to be an effective antiscorbutic by the second outbreak. " as meaning that they knew oranges worked because they worked twice- once might have been a coincidence.
Of course another interpretation was that, while they knew oranges worked, they simply didn't have any. Oranges don't keep very well.
Also, they may have had stored oranges that were just about edible, but the vitamin c content of fruit falls with storage so they might not have helped much.
From the limited record of what happened all those years ago it's hard to be certain what they did and what happened.
More modern, fully documented cases have shown the effect of pure vitamin C in controlled studies.

When all is said and done, vitamin C cures scurvy and a lack of it causes scurvy.
 

Offline iko

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« Reply #12 on: 30/07/2007 22:27:42 »
Scurvy is becoming more and more difficult to diagnose....


In the last issue of the New England Journal of Medicine, July 26, an intriguing case is presented:

autistic 9yr old child with a 2months history of bone pain and a limp, plus a skin rash and bleeding gums.  It took a few days plus MRI, x-rays, blood tests and a bone biopsy(!) before suspecting vitamin C deficiency and giving a dose of 160mg daily and a pediatric multivitamin for a prompt improving of his ailment.
The patient's mother was reinterviewed about diet history: since the onset of his bony pain, several months earlier, he had consumed only toaster pastries and cola drinks...

« Last Edit: 30/07/2007 22:30:48 by iko »
 

Offline GBSB

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #13 on: 31/07/2007 21:59:12 »
Iko,

If you post the link it will be easy to discus. Anyway I will use example that you posted for excuse to say something about DIAGNOSIS of the scurvy.

To diagnose scurvy it need to exist underlining condition. (It is like manual how to diagnose the scurvy and many other health conditions)
Underlining condition to diagnose scurvy is low level of vitamin C in the body.
(In case that is not detected lack of vitamin C in the body than same health condition will not be diagnosed as scurvy but as some another health condition.)

In this case they established low level of vitamin C.

To run manual step by step it need to establish the absence or insufficient intake of vitamin C in recent time.

They interview mother of the boy and they get confession.

If you look that this poor women have already 9 year old autistic son and she is probably lower socioeconomic class that means she have already pleanty trouble (it is my gues). In such case it easy to get confesion from her that pleased these medical professionals. (Medical professional canít do such interview with reach people but just with people that are vulnerable).

Interview done by medical professionals is in reality inquisition. If this woman didnít make suggested confession that will please medical professionals she could face many unpleasant consequences and possibility that her son will be taken from her and put in custody.

Medicals journals are polluted with self conducted self assessed and self reported research and no one questioning validity of those studies as long as they are in stream with established belief. Majority of study that are published in medicals journals are in scientific term worthless but the only us is to enrich the curriculum vitae of their author.

At this point is pointless to discus every study that conform pre-existing belief that absence or insufficient intake of vitamin C cause scurvy.
It will be more productive is to discuss credibility of the sources and event that have lead to belief that lack of vitamin C is responsible for scurvy is and after that we can take under scrutiny this waste number of study about vitamin C and scurvy.

P. S.
My point is that low level of vitamin C and (some another adverse biochemical change in the body) is caused by scurvy and not that scurvy is caused by absence of intake of vitamin C.

The vitamin C has remedial property and that vitamin C alone doesnít have curative property.

 

Offline Bored chemist

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #14 on: 01/08/2007 20:16:36 »
OK, the medical profession can get a bit carried away with itself just like anyone else can.
The woman may have been susceptible to sugesstions from the doctors (thought I understand that poor nutrition isn't rare in autistic children).
In the same way that I don't blame the headache I get on Saturday morning on a lack of aspirin, even though an aspirin makes the headache go away, the fact that vitamin C makes scurvy go away does not absolutely prove that scurvy is caused by a lack of vitamin C.

The fact that feeding a limited (vit C deficient) diet to guinea pigs causes scurvy whereas exactly the same diet with added vit C doesn't cause scurvy does prove that it's the lack of vitamin C that causes scurvy.
 

Offline iko

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #15 on: 02/08/2007 08:14:07 »
Luka is making me mad...
We are craving for new hints
and hypotheses about mysterious
'idiopathic' diseases, and here he is,
all busy in spending his precious new brain
just to capsize the few poor evidences we have!
We fortunately know - about scurvy and vitamin C -
almost everything needed to diagnose and treat quickly
and effectively deficiencies, safely enough to forget about it!


ikoD   ;D
« Last Edit: 02/08/2007 10:27:21 by iko »
 

Offline GBSB

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #16 on: 14/08/2007 01:43:06 »
More than sixty years was belief that vitamin C have protective and curative role against cold. Till recently it was unquestionable scientific fact (backed with waste number of published scientific paper) that taking daily certain dose of vitamin C will prevent cold.
After more than sixty years it was accepted fact (from real life) that to prevent or cure common cold vitamin C is useless.

Still many people donít like to confront with reality and still many believe that vitamin C ward and cure cold despite that is no evidence in real life for such a belief.

It is more striking fact that from beginning and followed with more than sixty years wasnít any evidence in real life to beck up this theory about protective and curative role of the vitamin C in case of common cold but people still believed.

In case of scurvy is established belief that absence or insufficient intake of vitamin C is responsible for incidence of scurvy despite fact that Eskimos and most population on north hemisphere lived just fine eating virtually no fruits and vegetables during long their winters. The Mongols didnít eat fruits and vegetable at all.

It is known that at least four century people tried everything (ranging from orange and lemons to prayers) to ward and cure scurvy by the sailors and sometimes it worked and sometimes didnít.
 
Scurvy disappeared on the end of nineteen and beginning of twenty of century and a few decades later after last outbreak of the scurvy on the sea it is established theory that vitamin C cure and protect from the scurvy.
 
The common cold happened every day and still it takes more than sixty years to give up belief that vitamin C prevent and cure cold.

In case of scurvy it is easy to defend this theory because there is no more any outbreak of scurvy on the sea and is established strong belief that vitamin C protect and cure scurvy.
This belief is product of the fraud in science (done intentionally or unintentionally).

In a few my next post I will tray to explain more.

Thanks for reading

« Last Edit: 14/08/2007 01:49:59 by GBSB »
 

Offline iko

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« Reply #17 on: 14/08/2007 21:46:36 »
Sometimes re-reading helps,
I personally try to spend
more time reading and thinking
than writing...it's better.

...and another case, 7yr boy, just cereal, without any fruit or veggies...
plus bleeding gums picture if you click down here:

http://student.bmj.com/issues/01/08/reviews/304.php



A 7-year-old boy was admitted with a sore mouth, bleeding gums, and painful knees. Further examination showed gum hyperplasia, flaky skin, perifollicular bleeding, and telangiectasia around the nose and ears. His diet consisted of mostly cereal, with no fruit or vegetables. His vitamin C concentration was less than 1.0 ϭol/l (normal is >32 ϭol/l). Subsequent investigations showed other nutritional deficiencies, including vitamin A and trace elements (copper, zinc, and selenium). His oral lesions completely resolved with dietary changes and vitamin C supplementation. Poor dietary intake of vitamin C is a rare cause of childhood scurvy in developed countries, and as nutritional deficiency diseases rarely occur in isolation, other deficiencies should be sought.

A J Thompson, senior registrar, H J Steen, consultant, A J M Reid, locum consultant, department of child health, Queen's University of Belfast, Institute of Clinical Science, Belfast BT12 6BJ
studentBMJ 2001;09:261-304 August ISSN 0966-6494



http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetailsKids.aspx?p=335&np=307&id=1491#9


This is scurvy today.
It exists now: no sailors, no ships, no miracle cancer cure or flu remedy.
Just ascorbic acid deficiency, potentially fatal when untreated.
No jokes.

ikod
« Last Edit: 14/08/2007 21:52:02 by iko »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #18 on: 15/08/2007 12:57:55 »
"More than sixty years was belief that vitamin C have protective and curative role against cold. Till recently it was unquestionable scientific fact (backed with waste number of published scientific paper) that taking daily certain dose of vitamin C will prevent cold. "

Just for the record I have never believed that vitamin C could cure the common cold (or cancer come to that). It was never established scientific truth simply because it was never true. Linus Pauling believed it; he though vitamin C would prevent cancer so he took lots of it. So did his wife and so did one of his lab coleagues; both died of cancer.
The wild idea that vitamin c cures the common cold is of no relevance to scurvy.
As Iko has popinted out scurvy still occurs from timt to time. It is still cured by vitamin C.
The mechanism of action is known.




"It is known that at least four century people tried everything (ranging from orange and lemons to prayers) to ward and cure scurvy by the sailors and sometimes it worked and sometimes didnít."
When did oranges fail to cure scurvy?
 

Offline iko

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« Reply #19 on: 15/08/2007 13:39:20 »

As Iko has pinpointed out scurvy still occurs from time to time. It is still cured by vitamin C.
The mechanism of action is known.


You are certainly right Bored chemist,
never forget the oldwives' lectures...
This is the most recent report, so fresh
and with plenty of ascorbic wisdom!

Scurvy: a presenting sign of psychosis.


Arron ST, Liao W, Maurer T.
Department of Dermatology, University of California, San Francisco, CA 94110, USA.

Nutritional deficiency may be a presenting sign of undiagnosed psychiatric illness. In this case, we present a patient with scurvy as a complication of fixed psychotic delusions regarding his diet. Dermatologists may play a crucial role in the recognition of psychiatric illnesses and appropriate referral for care.

J Am Acad Dermatol. 2007 Aug;57(2 Suppl):S8-10.





Infantile scurvy  (Barlow's disease)

This X-ray of an infant afflicted by scurvy shows some of the skeletal effects of the disease, including bowed legs, stunted bone growth, and swollen joints. Infants who are fed only cow's milk are at risk of developing scurvy, since cow's milk is not an adequate source of vitamin C. [Photograph by Lester V. Bergman. Corbis Images. Reproduced by permission.]



Scurvy is a condition characterized by hemorrhages around the hair follicles of the arms and legs, generalized weakness, anemia, and gum disease (gingivitis) resulting from a lack of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) in the diet. Early epidemics of scurvy occurred during the Renaissance (1600–1800s) among explorers and seafaring men. In 1746, James Lind, a British naval surgeon, established that eating lemons and oranges cured the disease.

Vitamin C is destroyed by heat, and thus not present in pasteurized and commercially processed foods. Children and teenagers who consume too many processed foods and few fresh fruits and vegetables may be getting inadequate amounts of vitamin C. (In 1914, an increased incidence of scurvy among infants was attributed to consumption of heated (pasteurized) milk and vitamin C–deficient commercially processed foods.) Though rare, scurvy is now frequently observed among elderly persons, alcoholics, and malnourished adults. In addition, smokers have higher requirements for vitamin C, and are therefore more at risk.

Kiran B. Misra

from:   http://www.faqs.org/nutrition/Pre-Sma/Scurvy.html



Only cow's milk for over 4-6 months?
Scurvy will reappear in the new MILLENNIUM!!!


Ascorbic acid is NOT a vitamin for cows: over thousand years of evolution they kept -like most mammals- the enzyme needed to synthesize it.
As a matter of fact its concentration in their milk is not necessary.
On the other hand, humans -like other primates- lost the gene and enzyme to make ascorbic acid; consequently, human breast milk is very rich of vitamin C, actively concentrated for newborns' sake.

Scurvy in a 10-month-old boy.

Larralde M, Santos Muñoz A, Boggio P, Di Gruccio V, Weis I, Schygiel A.
Pediatric Dermatology Division and Pediatric Department, Ramos Mejía Hospital, Buenos Aires, Argentina. margaritalarraide@fibertel.com.ar

We report a 10-month-old boy with inflammatory and necrotic gingival lesions, fever, irritability, and pseudoparalysis of the legs. Laboratory examinations revealed moderate anemia and skeletal X-rays showed osteopenia, scorbutic rosary at the costochondral junctions, and "corner sign" on the proximal metaphyses of the femora.
The boy had been fed only with diluted cow's milk. He had never taken solid food, vitamin C, or iron complement.
Seventy-two hours after starting oral vitamin C supplementation, there was significant improvement in the patient's gingival lesions and general health. The clinical presentation and laboratory and imaging findings, together with the dramatic response to ascorbic acid intake, allowed us to confirm the diagnosis of infantile scurvy. Scurvy, a dietary disease due to the deficient intake of vitamin C, is uncommon in the pediatric population. In an infant who has never received vitamin C, the combination of gingival lesions, pseudoparalysis, and irritability strongly suggests a diagnosis of scurvy. The clinical picture, together with the laboratory data, radiological studies, and therapeutic response to vitamin C administration, confirmed the diagnosis.

Int J Dermatol. 2007 Feb;46(2):194-8.





Quote
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored

Aldous Huxley




« Last Edit: 19/08/2007 09:08:26 by iko »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #20 on: 02/09/2007 20:48:56 »
I would like to add something that might have been overlooked in the lime and lemon study.

1.   Gum disease, mouth ulceration and abscess are all quickly cured by swishing lime or lemon juice around the mouth. The anti-microbial qualities of  these two fruits surpasses anything on the market today. My family have used this method to great effect over many years and found it to work perfectly, in fact, I believe I added a post some time ago.
2.   Now, if the route of blood poisoning, sickness and diarrhoea is from oral infection, then the lemons and limes would undoubtedly cleanse the infections, kill of tummy bugs and assist recovery. Which leaves us with the question of what exactly scurvy is?
3.   Lemon used as a contraceptive by prostitutes during and after intercourse has been shown to prevent aids! Fact! So not only is it antibiotic, anti fungal and anti viral, it is a highly efficient ant-spermicidal, immobilising sperm and killing in around 20 seconds. 
4.   Which I believe adds a little validity to Lukaís intriguing look at scurvy

Andrew
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #21 on: 02/09/2007 21:09:09 »
Personally I use high proof vodka on cotton wool to kill mouth ulcers- it stings a bit but it works. Of course, I get enough vitamin C so this has nothing to do with scurvy, just the misfortune that a scratch inside my mouth gets infected.

If lemons cured all those problems then healthcare would look a little different. On the other hand if you got anything like enough lemon juice into someones bloodstream to make it inhospitable to bacteria then you would probably kill the patient. The stomach is very acid anyway so it's hardly in need of a shot of lemon juice to kill bugs.
Way back at the start of this post there were references to diluted vitriol not curing scurvy (trust me it's just as good an acid) and to cider not curing scurvy. Thanks to the alcohol, as well as the acidity, cider is a pretty good bactericide too.
Curing scurvy is not just a matter of acidity or killing bugs.
Curing scurvy is a matter of supplying the chemical that the body needs as a co-factor for the oxidation of proline to hydroxyproline.
The fact that lemon juice will kill lots of things isn't a great shock- the stuff is really quite acidic. However since scurvy is nothing to do with infection any anti-infective properties of lemons must be a coincidence.

BTW, pure ascorbic acid works to cure scurvy. The quantities of it needed are small enough not to have any direct anti infective effect.

I don't think any effect lemons have on microorganisms can add any validity to a discussion of a disease that doesn't involve any microorganisms.
 

Offline GBSB

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« Reply #22 on: 03/09/2007 21:24:13 »
Andrew thanks for your constructive and informative comment. I am glad that you find interesting to question the theory about scurvy and vitamin C.
I am trying to explain that cause of scurvy wasnít in sailorsí diet but it was due to biomechanical factor. I think that at this stage is too early to put completely theory forward because of strong established belief that absence or insufficient content of vitamin C in sailorís diet was factor that caused incidence of scurvy. 
I hope you will find interesting and any possible future comments from you, whether support or contradict to my theory is valuable for me.   

Quote
Bored chemist wrote:
When did oranges fail to cure scurvy?
If oranges (and lemons) never failed to prevent and cure scurvy than is question why Lind made this trial. It will be enough to give oranges and lemons to every sailor that is affected with scurvy. But I think that on this stage for majority that sound as meaningless fact.

On the other side there are a few other facts that more seriously contradict to established wisdom about vitamin C and scurvy.

Letís take look in events that happened in Vasco da Gama voyage in year 1497

Quote
One of the earliest outbreaks of scurvy at sea was sustained by the crew of Vasco da Gama during his 1497 expedition to India. Da Gama began his expedition from Lisbon on July 9, 1497, with a fleet of 4 ships and a crew of 140 men. It took them 6 months to round the Cape of Good Hope. By the time da Gama's crew landed on the southeast coast of Africa, most of them were afflicted with scurvy. Da Gama recorded: "Many of our men fell ill here, their feet and hands swelling, and their gums growing over their teeth so that they could not eat." As they sailed farther up the east coast of Africa, they met local traders, who traded them fresh oranges. Within 6 days of eating the oranges, da Gama's crew recovered fully and he noted, "It pleased God in his mercy that ... all our sick recovered their health for the air of the place is very good."
 http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/108/4/e76

It shows that eating orange 6 days (on the land) was enough to achieve full recovery from scurvy for everyone that was affected by scurvy. On this example it is clear that orange (vitamin C) are effective to cure scurvy.

But by second outbreak of scurvy it seems that the oranges wasnít so effective to cure scurvy and Wasco Da Gama lost more than half of his crew.
Quote
From India, da Gama returned across the Arabian Sea. Within 12 weeks of sailing, his crew was again afflicted and weakened by scurvy. Da Gama commented: "We addressed vows and petitions to the Saints ... it pleased God in his mercy to send us a wind which in the course of six days, carried us within sight of land ... at this we rejoiced as ... we hoped to recover our health there as we had done before ... the Captain-Major sent a man on shore to bring off a supply of oranges which were much desired by our sick." Da Gama lost more than half of his crew by the end of his journey.

It is to conclude that by the second outbreak the crew didnít land but continued to sail after fruits is supplied on the ship. Theyíve where eating fruits on the travelling ship hoping that citrus will again cure the scurvy.
 
I couldnít find more information how successful was  but if we take in account that he lost more than half of his crew by the end of journey it is to conclude that by second outbreak of scurvy the orange and lemons didnít help to much if at all.

By first outbreak of the scurvy oranges was effective to counteract to the scurvy because the sailors where on the land, Whit another words they where on stabile ground and not on unstable moving platform that on the sea provide unstable wind powered ship. 

What was difference in outcome by treating scurvy on the ship and on the land can be understand from this link.
Quote
Once on shore it was a superstition among sailors that the smell and the touch of the earth gave the surest cure. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/captaincook_scurvy_02.shtml


Quote
People were aware that once victims were on shore they could be recovered by eating scurvy grass, wild celery, wood sorrel, nasturtiums, brooklime, Kerguelen cabbage (Pringlea antiscorbutica), cabbage trees and other esculent plants growing on the shores of distant islands. Fruit and palm wine were also esteemed to be fine remedies,
No one had a remedy for scurvy at sea - however; the best on offer was a battery of prophylactic measures, including portable soup (a preparation of dried vegetables), malt, sauerkraut, concentrated fruit juice (rob), vinegar, mustard, molasses and beans. These were aimed at repelling any sign of scurvy from the outset, since it was impossible to control it, once it had gained a footing, other than by going ashore.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/captaincook_scurvy_02.shtml
This shows that not only citrus was effective to cure scurvy but as well nearly everything that grows on the land  was effective to cure scurvy.

During the voyage in 1497Vasco de Gama lost more than half of his crew but there is no mention that he lost any officer and it is to conclude that scurvy affected only poor sailors and the officers wasnít affected with scurvy.
Quote
His crew sustained scurvy when they had been at sea for 10 weeks or more. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/108/4/e76
In any document about scurvy that I have looked it is always mentioned crew and scurvy and never officers and scurry or crew and officers and scurry
It shows that only the people on the ship who are not officers where affected with scurvy and that officers wasnít.

It is to conclude that at those times it was mystery that only poor sailors were vulnerable to scurvy and that officers didnít.
   
Theory that scurvy is caused because of absence or insufficient amount of vitamin C in sailorís diet is established long time after scurvy disappeared. Everything that supports this theory is accepted and exaggerated and everything that contradicts or questioned this theory is overlooked and ignored.
 
In this post I pointed out on two facts;
One fact is that treating scurvy on the land was always successful and that on the ship scurvy was nearly impossible to treat.

Second fact is that only crew was vulnerable to scurvy and that officerís wasnít.


I will tray to explain later but before in my next posts I will take a little bit more under scrutiny Lindís trial and guinea pigs and as well nowadays diagnosis of scurvy?
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #23 on: 05/09/2007 20:18:04 »
"One fact is that treating scurvy on the land was always successful and that on the ship scurvy was nearly impossible to treat."
Lemons don't grow in the ocean. Vitamin C has poor storage qualities under the conditions usually found on ships of that era.

"Second fact is that only crew was vulnerable to scurvy and that officer's wasn't. "

One of the privileges of rank was that you got a better diet. Both groups were at sea so they were the same from that point of view. These 2 groups can be thought of as a first group who were badly fed (the sailors) who got scurvy and a second group who were relatively well fed (the officers) who didn't get scurvy.
I can't see that as evidence for anything other than scurvy being related to a poor diet.


The reports of De Gama's voyage, regretably, don't include enough information to really establish what happened. It's possible that spoilage of the fruit (which never did keep well) would have destroyed its vitamin C.
What is clear is that oranges cured the disease and that returning to the restricted diet of the ship provoked the disease again. So I'm still waiting for an answer to my question "When did oranges fail to cure scurvy?" I should make it clear that I mean lots of fresh oranges.
Unless you can give a clearly documented answer to this I think you are wasting your time (and the site's bandwidth).

"No one had a remedy for scurvy at sea - however; the best on offer was a battery of prophylactic measures, including portable soup (a preparation of dried vegetables), malt, sauerkraut, concentrated fruit juice (rob), vinegar, mustard, molasses and beans."
The fact that so many things are offered seems to me to be because none of them worked or, more likely they all worked to some degree and that degree was variable.

I'm also still waiting for you to answer my earlier question about guinea pigs; do they go sailing?

Since scurvy also happened on land, particularly in places like prisons where the food was poor, any ides that it's particularly related to ships or the sea are simply wrong.

As Iko says, look at the more modern, well documented cases and see what the beautiful truth is.
 

Offline GBSB

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« Reply #24 on: 09/09/2007 12:01:01 »
Guinea pig and quack-theory


The facts about experiment on which is based theory that guinea pigs can’t synthesise vitamin C.

Quote
In 1902, Axel Holst, a Norwegian professor of bacteriology and hygiene who had been concerned at the appearance of what had been diagnosed as beriberi in the crews of Norwegian sailing ships, seized an opportunity to visit Grijns in Batavia and to see his work on chicken polyneuritis. On his return to Oslo, he attempted to obtain a closer model of "ship-beriberi" by using a mammal as his experimental species, and chose guinea pigs. He fed them grains, either whole or milled, and found that they all died within  30 d. When the carcasses were opened he saw "pronounced hemorrhages" and looseness of the molar teeth. Theodor Frölich, a pediatrician with experience of infantile scurvy, confirmed that the condition appeared to be scurvy with no evidence of any kind of polyneuritis. The two men then found that the condition was not produced by semistarvation, and that it was prevented by giving two traditional antiscorbutics, lemon juice and fresh cabbage
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/4/975

Before any discusion is usefull to remind of some facts about guinea pigs.

Quote
Grass is the guinea pig's natural diet.

Guinea pigs tend to be fickle eaters when it comes to fresh fruits and vegetables, having learned early in life what is and is not appropriate to consume, and their habits are difficult to change after maturity.[

They do not respond well to sudden changes in diet; they may stop eating and starve rather than accepting new food types

A constant supply of hay or other food is generally recommended, as guinea pigs feed continuously and may develop habits such as chewing on their own hair if food is not present

Guinea pigs are prey animals whose survival instinct is to mask pain and signs of illness, and many times health problems may not be apparent until a condition is severe or in its advanced stages.

Treatment of disease is made more difficult by the extreme sensitivity guinea pigs have to most antibiotics, including penicillin, which kill off the intestinal flora and quickly bring on episodes of diarrhea and death
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pigs

Taking in account that grass is guinea pigs natural diet and that grains, either whole or milled isn’t, shows that feeding the guinea pigs with grains either whole or milled is actually exposing them to starvations to the some extent and in the same time to the some extent of slow poisoning (semi starvation combined with slow poisoning),

They didn’t prevent death of guinea pigs by giving them lemon juice by continuing to feed them with grain, either whole or milled.

They didn’t prevent death or reverse condition induced by feeding guinea pigs with the grain by continuing the feeding with grain and cabbage because the guinea pig will ignore the grains, either whole or milled and will eat only cabbage because cabbage is guinea pigs  natural diet and grain, whole or milled is not..
 
They prevented (condition) guinea pigs from death by giving them, lemon juice and fresh cabbage.

Taking in account that guinea pigs “do not respond well to sudden changes in diet; they may stop eating and starve rather than accepting new food types” it is questions how Axel Holst convinced guinea pig to eat grain at all. It is like convince lions to eat broccoli and lemons.

Lion natural diet is meat and if you fed them with broccoli and lemon the lions surly will develop scurvy if he doesn’t die before.

This experiment on which is founded theory that gunea pigs can’t syntetise  vitamin C can be simply described as; with metod of slow poisioning and semi starvation by guinea pig is induced condition that is treated by discontinuing the starvation and slow poisioning and repleaced with natural diet (cabbage) and aded a drop of snake oil (lemon juice).
 
Healing and remedial property of the lemon juice and citrus in general the humans discovered long time age only in this case the lemons juice is used as snake oil.

« Last Edit: 09/09/2007 19:58:25 by GBSB »
 

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