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Offline iko

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #50 on: 01/10/2007 22:15:32 »
Hi VitaminC,

we should have AAplasma levels in our laboratory routine.
Actually this test is based on a cheap and simple chemical reaction estabilished in 1941.
Its use has been sort of abandoned, due to lack of scorbutic patients...and interest.
In my personal opinion, the area between florid scurvy and mild deficiency in concurrent diseases still needs further investigation.
BTW did you know that Ascorbic acid in cerebral spinal fluid is 3-4 times more concentrated than in peripheral blood (plasma)?
This cofactor should really do something important in our brain, to be 'pumped' so efficiently across the blood brain barrier!  ;)

ikod

Now let's be serious for a while again...
Does anybody know what is concentrated ascorbic acid doing in our brains?
Even more concentrated in preterm babies and newborns?
It is an old finding, still a mystery to me!

ikod
   ???


...and even in various 'ocular compartments'
ascorbic acid is concentrated 20 folds in respect to plasma!


To protect from ultraviolet rays oxidizing effects?
Isn't this just fascinating...









http://www.bmchan.com/retail/spa/pic.jpg
« Last Edit: 07/10/2007 21:59:50 by iko »
 

Offline GBSB

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #51 on: 02/10/2007 02:23:50 »
Linus Pauling and vitamin C
(The physical damage to people he (Linus Pauling) led astray cannot be measured.)

Quote
A flyer distributed in 1991 by the Linus Pauling Institute recommended daily doses of 6,000 to 18,000 mg of vitamin C, 400 to 1,600 IU of vitamin E, and 25,000 IU of vitamin A, plus various other vitamins and minerals. These dosages have no proven benefit and can cause troublesome side effects.

Although Pauling's megavitamin claims lacked the evidence needed for acceptance by the scientific community, they have been accepted by large numbers of people who lack the scientific expertise to evaluate them.
 
Thanks largely to Pauling's prestige, annual vitamin C sales in the United States have been in the hundreds of millions of dollars for many years.
The physical damage to people he led astray cannot be measured. http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pauling.html

The fear from illnesses, diseases and premature death make humans highly vulnerable to quackery. Before any discussion about miracle healing property of vitamin C it is useful to confront with some fact about recently claims about healing property of vitamin C.
 
 

Offline Bored chemist

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #52 on: 02/10/2007 20:09:52 »
Linus Pauling was just plain wrong about vitamin C. Those repeating his claims abouyt it curing cancer are also wrong; if they are doing it to make a fast buck then they are frauds and should be prosecuted as such.
It is true that people's fear of illness can lead to all sorts of odd behaviour (personally I think prayer is one of the oddest things it can produce but that's another topic). Taking big vitamin C pills when you have a cold is relatively harmless and the placebo effect may well make the overall effect on humanity beneficial.

The oposite of this quackery is science; for example the science shows that adequate levels of vitamin C are required to prevent scurvy (science really shows this whether you like it or not).
It also shows that excessive consumption is at best a waste of money, and in extreme cases harmful.

That's a really good reason for singing the praises of science; not for talking nonsense about established biochemistry.
 

Offline iko

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #53 on: 02/10/2007 21:14:15 »



Linus Pauling was just plain wrong about vitamin C. Those repeating his claims abouyt it curing cancer are also wrong; if they are doing it to make a fast buck then they are frauds and should be prosecuted as such.
It is true that people's fear of illness can lead to all sorts of odd behaviour (personally I think prayer is one of the oddest things it can produce but that's another topic). Taking big vitamin C pills when you have a cold is relatively harmless and the placebo effect may well make the overall effect on humanity beneficial.

The oposite of this quackery is science; for example the science shows that adequate levels of vitamin C are required to prevent scurvy (science really shows this whether you like it or not).
It also shows that excessive consumption is at best a waste of money, and in extreme cases harmful.

That's a really good reason for singing the praises of science; not for talking nonsense about established biochemistry.

I feel too ignorant to agree with you about Linus Pauling.
I respect and admire scientists who studied their beloved biochemistry in the past century, especially those who managed to get 2 (two) Nobel prizes in a row.
There is something missing about vitamin C and cancer.
Obviously there is no cure in taking lots of ascorbic acid just like that.
If you study carefully what has been done in the past, well, Cameron et al. claimed  positive results in a few patients with lymphosarcoma. Nobody published negative results later on, then -I think in '85- a negative report was published, concerning colon cancer patients...
I mean, to disprove those theories they chose just one disease, the most resistant to any drug treatment, one that is practically cured by early surgery only.  Is that so scientific?  I must say that the editorial commenting on those results was making this point clear.

I see a sort of attitude to disrespect this type of scientific issues.
Then we are ready to miss a diagnosis of scurvy in a malnourished child.
We can also diagnose 'multiorganfailure' a shoshin beriberi starving for weeks in ICU.
Neglected has been even a study showing that one third of leukemic children had low AA values compared to 3% in the normal population.  This may sound nothing to the most, certainly not to me.
After ages of ignorance, now we know that properly nourished leukemic kids do better through chemotherapy.  How clever we are.

There are ups and downs even for extremely smart scientists.
Maybe Pauling went too high in the recent past...he will rise again.


ikod   [^]

 
« Last Edit: 07/10/2007 22:43:37 by iko »
 

Offline iko

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #54 on: 02/10/2007 21:53:28 »
...Some ICU operators started giving i.v. vitamin C to severely burned patients.
This recent experimental (poor sheep!) report actually supports previous clinical 'evidence':


High-dose vitamin C infusion reduces fluid requirements in the resuscitation of burn-injured sheep.

Shock. 2005 Aug;24(2):139-44.
Dubick MA, Williams C, Elgjo GI, Kramer GC.
U.S. Army Institute of Surgical Research, San Antonio, Texas 78234-6315, USA. Michael.Dubick@amedd.army.mil

Fluid resuscitation to maintain adequate tissue perfusion while reducing edema in the severely burned patient remains a challenge. Recent studies suggest that reactive oxygen species generated by thermal injury are involved in edema formation associated with burn. The present study tested the hypothesis that adding a free radical scavenger to the resuscitation fluid would reduce total fluid requirements in the treatment of severe thermal injury. Anesthetized chronically instrumented sheep received a 40% total body surface area full-thickness flame burn. At 1 h after injury, animals were resuscitated with lactated Ringer's (LR, n = 14) as control, LR containing high doses of vitamin C (VC, n = 6), 1000 mOsM hypertonic saline (HS, n = 7), or 1000 HS containing VC (HS/VC, n = 7) in coded bags so that investigators were blinded to the treatment. Fluids were infused at an initial Parkland rate of 10 mL/kg/h, adjusted hourly to restore and maintain urine output at 1 to 2 mL/kg/h. Sheep in the VC or HS/VC group received 250 mg/kg VC in the first 500 mL of LR or HS, and then 15 mg/kg/h thereafter. Hemodynamic variables and indices of antioxidant status were measured. At 48 h postburn, sheep were euthanized, and heart, liver, lung, skeletal muscle, and ileum were evaluated for antioxidant status. All fluid resuscitation regimens were equally effective in restoring cardiac output to near baseline levels; no treatment effects were apparent on arterial pressure or heart rate. VC infusion significantly reduced fluid requirements and, therefore, net fluid balance (fluid in, urine out) by about 30% at 6 h and about 50% at 48 h in comparison with the LR group (P < 0.05). HS and HS/VC reduced fluid requirements by 30% and 65%, respectively, at 6 h, but the volume-sparing effect of HS was not observed after 36 h and that of HS/VC was lost after 12 h. Plasma total antioxidant potential increased about 25-fold (P < 0.05) at 2 and 3 h in response to VC infusion compared with the LR and HS groups, and remained about 5- to 10-fold higher throughout the rest of the study. VC infusion also prevented the 4-fold increase in plasma thiobarbituric acid reactive substances seen in the LR group early after burn (P < 0.05). Tissue antioxidant status was similar between groups. In this sheep burn model, continuous high-dose VC infusion reduced net fluid balance, reduced indices of plasma lipid peroxidation, and maintained overall antioxidant status in comparison with standard-of-care LR treatment.

« Last Edit: 03/10/2007 18:00:28 by iko »
 

Offline VitaminC

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #55 on: 06/10/2007 01:34:42 »
Oops. I guess I took too long of a break from this forum. So much to reply to!

BTW did you know that Ascorbic acid in cerebral spinal fluid is 3-4 times more concentrated than in peripheral blood (plasma)?
This cofactor should really do something important in our brain, to be 'pumped' so efficiently across the blood brain barrier!  ;)

Certainly. If you read the work by Mark Levine and others with the knockout mice model of the vitamin C transporter SVCT2, you'll see the absolute importance of vitamin C in the brain and the CSF.... especially in newborns. SVCT2 is the only route by which vitamin C can enter the placenta.

newbielink:http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v8/n5/full/nm0502-514.html [nonactive]

I start this topic with intention to explain that events that lead to establish the role between vitamin C and scurvy is “The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the blasphemy” are littered with quackery and need to be re-examined.

You need to understand what Scurvy is before you can really understand why vitamin C is liked to it. Scurvy is deficiency in several biosynthetic processes within the cell by which reduction/oxidation reactions in a metal-containing enzyme is necessary for full activity. Does this mean that vitamin C is absolutely necessary for enzymatic activity of these processes? No -- vitamin C is not an absolute requirement, but the enzymes cannot work at full capacity without vitamin C. The deficiency (in strict biochemical terms) is not in vitamin C itself, but in the enzymatic activities that vitamin C participates in. That is the true nature of scurvy.

But does this difference really matter? If you don't eat vitamin C, you will die. It's an absolute requirement for life. How we differentiate the disease versus the molecule that treats the disease is a question of semantics.

Also, I should point out in all your examples about vitamin C and lime juice -- lime juice did NOT cure scurvy in the British Navy, because the limes did not have as much vitamin C in them as lemons. Some sailors still developed the disease, just fewer than before.

Other navies had other methods for dealing with vitamin C loss. Tomatoes, potatoes, cabbage -- why do you think pickled cabbage was necessary for German Navy?! Scurvy prevention. It's been going on since the time of the vikings. All you need is fresh fruit and/or vegetables - citrus is NOT a requirement.

People still get scurvy today. Infants, children, adults, elderly. It just is more prevalent in children and the elderly. Adults, especially alcoholics - as was mentioned by Ikod - also suffer from vitamin C deficiency. Have you seen the vitamin C levels in dialysis patients? The wound healing is terrible for these people, and they still won't give them a glass of orange juice.

Does anybody know what is concentrated ascorbic acid doing in our brains?
Even more concentrated in preterm babies and newborns?
It is an old finding, still a mystery to me!

Protection, for the most part. But also don't forget vitamin C's role in neurotransmitter production.

Again, this is due to the role of SVCT2, which is also present in the eye.

Linus Pauling and vitamin C
(The physical damage to people he (Linus Pauling) led astray cannot be measured.)

Linus Pauling was not a quack - he dealt with the information that he had at the time. He was a very brilliant chemist... but he was NOT a biologist. He knew vitamin C was important, but he did not know everything about the vitamin. This is mainly because most of the important vitamin C research as been done in the last two decades. Pauling died in 1993, if I recall correctly, just as the field was getting some much deserved attention.

Quote
A flyer distributed in 1991 by the Linus Pauling Institute recommended daily doses of 6,000 to 18,000 mg of vitamin C, 400 to 1,600 IU of vitamin E, and 25,000 IU of vitamin A, plus various other vitamins and minerals. These dosages have no proven benefit and can cause troublesome side effects.

Vitamin C levels in these doses can have some side effects, but in most people they do no harm. However, if you bothered to notice, the vitamin C levels recommended by the Linus Pauling Institute are no longer this high:

newbielink:http://lpi.oregonstate.edu [nonactive]

They have learned from the evidence that is around them, but that doesn't say that vitamin C levels of this level do nothing... read on, and I'll explain.

The fear from illnesses, diseases and premature death make humans highly vulnerable to quackery. Before any discussion about miracle healing property of vitamin C it is useful to confront with some fact about recently claims about healing property of vitamin C.

Certainly. Vitamin C cannot do everything. However, vitamin C can do a lot more than people are willing to give it credit for. I don't want to go into too much detail right now (this is already getting long) but vitamin C is gaining more and more roles as we learn more about it - and what regulated its level in the body! Pauling's hypotheses about vitamin C and cancer are finally getting some rigorous evidence to back it up:

newbielink:http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/abstract/174/7/937 [nonactive]

newbielink:http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/104/21/8749 [nonactive]

...Some ICU operators started giving i.v. vitamin C to severely burned patients.
This recent experimental (poor sheep!) report actually supports previous clinical 'evidence':

Yes, burn injury in sheep is a good model for humans. Vitamin E also seems to be very protective against systemic reactions to major burns. Many oxygen radicals being produced during these insults.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2007 01:39:49 by VitaminC »
 

Offline iko

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #56 on: 06/10/2007 09:59:47 »
Wow

Thank you so much whoever is hiding under VitaminC!
I had been drowning in nice cod liver oil in the last few years.
I must say I neglected ascorbic acid literature a bit:
this short update of yours is quite refreshing indeed.

ikod [^]
« Last Edit: 06/10/2007 10:05:08 by iko »
 

Offline iko

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #57 on: 06/10/2007 13:42:59 »




There are ups and downs even for extremely smart scientists.
Maybe Pauling went too high in the recent past...he will rise again.


ikod   [^]

 


I couldn't really imagine his return happening right NOW!

Thanks again for your citations VitaminC:
I'll cross AA&ca on PubMed again...after long years of skepticism.

ikod   ;)
« Last Edit: 06/10/2007 13:51:48 by iko »
 

Offline daveshorts

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #58 on: 13/10/2007 18:49:38 »
I know someone who gave himself scurvey by only eating packet food for about 6 months while sailing to Australia in an open boat. He got the classic symptoms, bleeding gums not repairing injuries. Luckily a doctor in the bush in NE Austrailia worked out the problem and put him on Vitamin C and it clear up in a week or two...
 

Offline Bored chemist

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #59 on: 13/10/2007 20:28:59 »
Was he trying for a Darwin award? It's not as if a packet of multivitamins would have taken up a lot of space in the boat.
 

Offline iko

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #60 on: 13/10/2007 21:28:49 »
Yabadabadu

Yes. One example out of many that shows how proper information* can make the difference between life or death.

ikod  ;)


* Could we call it 'culture'?



« Last Edit: 16/01/2009 18:26:12 by iko »
 

Offline iko

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #61 on: 16/10/2007 17:36:46 »
MRI.
Yes

New, sophisticated technologies to diagnose a very old disease.

MR Imaging in a Child with Scurvy: a Case Report.


Choi SW, Park SW, Kwon YS, Oh IS, Lim MK, Kim WH, Suh CH.Department of Radiology, College of Medicine, Inha University, Incheon, Korea. swpark88@inha.ac.kr.

Scurvy is very rare disease in industrialized societies. Nevertheless, it still exists in higher risk groups including economically disadvantaged populations with poor nutrition, such as the elderly and chronic alcoholics. The incidence of scurvy in the pediatric population is very low. This study reports a case of scurvy in a 5-year-old girl with cerebral palsy and developmental delay based on MRI findings.

Korean J Radiol. 2007 Sep-Oct;8(5):443-7.


...more from:  http://www.kjronline.org/abstract/view_articletext.asp?year=2007&page=443
« Last Edit: 16/10/2007 17:38:52 by iko »
 

Offline djt

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #62 on: 28/02/2008 06:25:08 »
If you think the incidence of scurvy in the pediatric population is so "very low" take a look at the work of Dr. C.A.B. Clemetson, MD and Dr.Archie Kalokerinos, MD in relation to "accelerated infantile scurvy-endotoxemia" and it possible emergence as "classical" Shaken Baby Syndrome. newbielink:http://truthquest2.com/johnlaverty/index.htm [nonactive]
« Last Edit: 28/02/2008 06:27:32 by djt »
 

Offline GBSB

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #63 on: 02/03/2008 01:33:04 »
It appear to me that the shaken baby syndrome is recently given name for a few decades ago unknown and at the present misunderstood medical condition that mostly affect children of age from tree months to one years. It seems that incidence of “Baby Shaken Syndrome” have increased in recent decades.

First of all, there is never been reported witnessed injury and accusing the parents or caregiver for this kind of medical condition is highly questionable.

In case of “Baby Shaken Syndrome” the parents-care giver are accused of physically inflecting negative medical condition and in 

In case of “Scurvy” the parents – care giver are accused of negligence.

In case that is caused by vaccination the blame is to vaccination.

In all tree case it shows that today the humans can’t afford to admit limitation of own knowledge and that is obstacle to any progress in understanding of cause and prevention of negative medical condition.

The Baby Shaken Syndrome can be very interesting topic and I suggest, start the new topic in New Theories tread.

In this topic present strong evidence that shows that;

1. On recorded history from the sea about scurvy incidence, there is no rational ground to accept theory about cause and prevention of the scurvy

2. There is no rational ground to accept theory about cause and prevention of the scurvy based on Lind’s trial.

3. There is no rational ground to accept theory that guinea pig is not able to synthesize the vitamin C.

I presented strong evidence that support my theory. On the other side on this topic no one present any evidence that contradict to my theory.

Luka Tunjic
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #64 on: 02/03/2008 15:57:14 »
You don't seem to have read the same thread as I have.
The one I read showed that
1 There is a documented mechanism by which lack of vitamin C leads (through a failure to synthesise hydroxyproline) to a failure of the connective tissues in the body and so to scurvy.

2 That people are occasionally still found to have scurvy; these people can be treated and cured by administration of vitamin C.
It didn't say anything particularly favourable about Lind's work or the sea but that reflects the fact that by the time people were doing proper clinical trials scurvy was much less of a problem because proper food had largely solved the problem.


As far as I recall your theory said something about scurvy being due to the motion of the sea. Well the sea still has just as many waves as it ever had, but the incidence of scurvy is much reduced.
You never yet managed to explain how guinea pigs (not known for nautical tendencies) manage to get scurvy (and, they do as indicated by the website I cited even if you don't choose to believe it).

I fail to see any evidence for your ideas and I see ample evidence refuting it.
 

Offline VitaminC

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #65 on: 24/04/2008 06:57:16 »
1. On recorded history from the sea about scurvy incidence, there is no rational ground to accept theory about cause and prevention of the scurvy

2. There is no rational ground to accept theory about cause and prevention of the scurvy based on Lind’s trial.

3. There is no rational ground to accept theory that guinea pig is not able to synthesize the vitamin C.

I presented strong evidence that support my theory. On the other side on this topic no one present any evidence that contradict to my theory.

I want to try to understand your statement here before I can make any claim one way or another. Are you simply suggesting that based on records of voyages at sea pre-19th or 20th century and James Lind's 'trial' that there is no definitive causal factor for the development, treatment or prevention of scurvy? If so, then I agree.

But how many people knew what Beriberi was in 1792? or Rickets? or Pellagra? Just because we didn't know what it was then, doesn't mean that we're not right now. As boredchemist stated, we have plausible mechanisms for the development of scurvy in conditions of vitamin C deficiency. How many people have developed scurvy when plasma ascorbic acid levels were adequate?

As for your issue #3:
(my paraphrase of results)
Ascorbate-deficient diets cause guinea pigs to get scurvy (Martensson et al. 1993, PNAS)
Ascorbate-free diets induced the development of scurvy in Guinea pigs (Margitti et al. 2005 J Nutr).
Guinea pigs not fed vitamin C develop collagen abnormalities (Mahmoodian and Pererofsky, 1999 J Nutr).
Vitamin C reduces damage to Guinea Pigs previously depleted of that vitamin (Barja et al. 1994 Free Radicals Biology and Medicine)
and Guinea pigs (in captivity) lack a functional L-Gulonolactone oxidase gene and are incapable of synthesizing vitamin C: Burns et al Science, 1956; Hassan and Lehninger J. Biol. Chem. 1956; Chatterjee et al Biochemistry, 1960; Odumosu and Wilson, Nature 1973; Jenness et al. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology 1980

I could go on, but I don't feel like it.
 

Offline GBSB

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #66 on: 04/05/2008 01:02:17 »
Guinea pig and quack theory


Guinea pig and quack-theory


The facts about experiment on which is based theory that guinea pigs can’t synthesise vitamin C.

Quote
In 1902, Axel Holst, a Norwegian professor of bacteriology and hygiene who had been concerned at the appearance of what had been diagnosed as beriberi in the crews of Norwegian sailing ships, seized an opportunity to visit Grijns in Batavia and to see his work on chicken polyneuritis. On his return to Oslo, he attempted to obtain a closer model of "ship-beriberi" by using a mammal as his experimental species, and chose guinea pigs. He fed them grains, either whole or milled, and found that they all died within  30 d. When the carcasses were opened he saw "pronounced hemorrhages" and looseness of the molar teeth. Theodor Frölich, a pediatrician with experience of infantile scurvy, confirmed that the condition appeared to be scurvy with no evidence of any kind of polyneuritis. The two men then found that the condition was not produced by semistarvation, and that it was prevented by giving two traditional antiscorbutics, lemon juice and fresh cabbage
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/4/975

Before any discusion is usefull to remind of some facts about guinea pigs.

Quote
Grass is the guinea pig's natural diet.

Guinea pigs tend to be fickle eaters when it comes to fresh fruits and vegetables, having learned early in life what is and is not appropriate to consume, and their habits are difficult to change after maturity.[

They do not respond well to sudden changes in diet; they may stop eating and starve rather than accepting new food types

A constant supply of hay or other food is generally recommended, as guinea pigs feed continuously and may develop habits such as chewing on their own hair if food is not present

Guinea pigs are prey animals whose survival instinct is to mask pain and signs of illness, and many times health problems may not be apparent until a condition is severe or in its advanced stages.

Treatment of disease is made more difficult by the extreme sensitivity guinea pigs have to most antibiotics, including penicillin, which kill off the intestinal flora and quickly bring on episodes of diarrhea and death
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pigs

Taking in account that grass is guinea pigs natural diet and that grains, either whole or milled isn’t, shows that feeding the guinea pigs with grains either whole or milled is actually exposing them to starvations to the some extent and in the same time to the some extent of slow poisoning (semi starvation combined with slow poisoning),

They didn’t prevent death of guinea pigs by giving them lemon juice by continuing to feed them with grain, either whole or milled.

They didn’t prevent death or reverse condition induced by feeding guinea pigs with the grain by continuing the feeding with grain and cabbage because the guinea pig will ignore the grains, either whole or milled and will eat only cabbage because cabbage is guinea pigs  natural diet and grain, whole or milled is not..
 
They prevented (condition) guinea pigs from death by giving them, lemon juice and fresh cabbage.

Taking in account that guinea pigs “do not respond well to sudden changes in diet; they may stop eating and starve rather than accepting new food types” it is questions how Axel Holst convinced guinea pig to eat grain at all. It is like convince lions to eat broccoli and lemons.

Lion natural diet is meat and if you fed them with broccoli and lemon the lions surly will develop scurvy if he doesn’t die before.

This experiment on which is founded theory that gunea pigs can’t syntetise  vitamin C can be simply described as; with metod of slow poisioning and semi starvation by guinea pig is induced condition that is treated by discontinuing the starvation and slow poisioning and repleaced with natural diet (cabbage) and aded a drop of snake oil (lemon juice).
 
Healing and remedial property of the lemon juice and citrus in general the humans discovered long time age only in this case the lemons juice is used as snake oil.


I rely didn’t expect that is necessary to say anything more about guinea pigs. It is obvious from evidence that theory that guinea pigs can’t synthesise vitamin C is unintentionally or intentionally fabricated.

It is obvious that guinea pig used for this experiment died without any symptom of scurvy. It didn’t get prickle bones or bleeding gums, or broken bones, or anything also that in these more sane times was necessary to diagnose scurvy.

The evidence shows that the guinea pig after thirty days of starvation/seamy starvation died without any symptoms of scurvy.

The guinea pig isn’t diagnosed with scurvy when it was alive because there wasn’t any symptom of scurvy.

Guinea pig was dead when she or he was diagnosed with scurvy. How long guinea pig was dead before she/he was diagnosed with scurvy we can’t see from to me available evidence.

The theory, which says guinea pigs can't Synthesise vitamin C is not based on guinea pig but on a guinea pig corpse.


Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)
« Last Edit: 04/05/2008 01:24:46 by GBSB »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #67 on: 04/05/2008 14:39:41 »
Pronounced heamorage and loose molars are signs of scurvy.
"Theodor Frölich, a pediatrician with experience of infantile scurvy, confirmed that the condition appeared to be scurvy "
"the condition was not produced by semistarvation"
"it was prevented by giving two traditional antiscorbutics"
You are right about there being no need to say anything more about guinnea pigs getting scury. They get scurvy- as shown by their symptoims and by expert testimony.
These symptoms are relieved by antiscorbutics.

That's pretty much proof that it's scurvy. The fact that guinnea pigs still get the disease today if not properly fed but can be treated by giving a more aproplrate diet proves that it's still true that, like us, guinnea pigs can't produce vitamin C.
Now if the "unnatural diet had anything to do with the matter then feeding the things with grain (which, it sems to have escaped your notice, is a grass) shouldn't be a problem- it's part of their normal diet.
On the other hand, cabbage leaves and lemon juice certainly are not (both cabbage and lemon are Mediteranean in origin whereas the guinnea pig is from South America)

So your idea that a foriegn diet was responsile for the death of these animakls is not just wrong, its the exact opposite of what the evidence says.
They fed them grass (what you say is their normal diet) and they got ill. That fed them cabbage (clearly not their normal diet) and they got better.
At best, you have shown that the precise course of the disease in guinnea pigs is different from that in humans- so what?

As for things like this "How long guinea pig was dead before she/he was diagnosed with scurvy we can’t see from to me available evidence. "
Well just for a start, we do know something of the answer. It was sufficiently recently dead that you could diagnose bleeding and loose teeth.
I grant that we don't know if that's an hour or a day or what but, like the poor creatures name, it doesn't matter.

Many diseases are easiest to diagnose post mortem. It's perfectly normal practice. I can only think you are raising the matter to distract attention from the paucity of the rest of your argument.
So, in summary, you say "will eat only cabbage because cabbage is guinea pigs  natural diet " in spite of cabbage being from the wrong continent.
You say "Lion natural diet is meat and if you fed them with broccoli and lemon the lions surly will develop scurvy if he doesn’t die before." repeatedly inspite of having no evidence.

You say "The evidence shows that the guinea pig after thirty days of starvation/seamy starvation died without any symptoms of scurvy." even though the expert who examined it said it did have scurvy.

And you fail to notice that grains are, in fact, grass.
You overlook the fact that people occasionally still get scurvy and it is cured by vitamin C.
You overlook the fact that the mechanism of this problem (ie the failure to convert proline to hydroxyproline)is well known.
You have yet to answer my comments on your idea that scurvy is somehow related to the waves of the sea. Here's what you said;
"Scurvy disappeared on the end of nineteen and beginning of twenty of century, in same time when big, stabile on the water, steam powered ships replaced smaller wind powered ships.

Did scurvy disappeared because of adequate amount of vitamin C in sailors diet or because of introducing steam powered ships that was much bigger in size and because of bigger size they are  more stabile on the water."

Scurvy still exists so it hasnt disapeared, not in the 19th C, nor the 20th nor, sadly, in the 21st.
Scurvy troubled other populations apart from sailors- notably prisoners  (who had a restricted diet with little fruit or fresh green veg) and guinea pigs.
Neither of these groups does a lot of sailing.
The sea still has just as many waves as it always had, yet the incidence of scurvy has reduced a lot.

You have not even shown the courtesy to comment on VitaminC's comments and the papers they cited showing, explicitly, that guinea pigs get scurvy.

Do you actually have any valid points to make, or are you just spouting the same nonsense repeatedly?


 

Offline GBSB

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« Reply #68 on: 04/05/2008 18:34:24 »
Do you actually have any valid points to make, or are you just spouting the same nonsense repeatedly?


Why you flooding this topic with rude post without providing any reasonable argument. It is against forum rules to do so.

You should know that such posts lowering the credibility of Necked Science.

My intention isn’t to replying on unintelligent and rude posts but to exchange thought with people that are not afraid to think.

If you don’t like my topic still there is plenty other and you can start your own topic.
I hope you will not tray force me to reply to you again.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #69 on: 05/05/2008 14:10:29 »
I believe I have provided reasons for all the arguments I have put forward. I have also asked you for reasons for the arguments you have put forward. You have not provided them.

I believe that any damage I do to Naked Science is minor compared to the risk of leaving unevinced guesswork such as yours unanswered.

I'm quite prepared to think- that's why I noticed things like your assertion that cabbage being part of theguinea pig's natural diet is inconsistent with them having evolved on separate continents.

You will lose such credibility as you still have if you continue to fail to answer the questions I have asked. I can't force you to reply- but if you don't, people will assume it is because you cannot find answers.
So, here they are again.
If vitamin C isn't the cause of scurvy what is?
Do you really think it's anything to do with the movement of ships?
If so, how do you explain the fact that it happens to people who are not on ships, for example prisoners?
If you don't think it's anything to do with ships why did you post that bit in your original post?
Why does scurvy clear up when treated with vitamin C?
How do you explain the fact that the mechanism of action of vitamin C has been established on a biochemical basis as vitamin C being a cofactor in the conversion of proline to hydroxyproline?

On the subject of being rude, since you raised it, I will repeat my question about why you ignored the data provided by "VitaminC"'s post?

 

Offline GBSB

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« Reply #70 on: 16/08/2009 15:41:28 »
Hammocks (hanging beds) and The Scurvy

Quote
In 1492 Hammocks were first introduced to Europe by Christopher Columbus when he brought many hammocks back to Spain from islands in the present day Bahamas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammock

Imidietly after Columbus brought the hamocks, they were adopted for use in sailing ships.

The first recorded outbreaks of scurvy happened in the year of 1497 (Vasco Da Gama’s first voyage).

There is no reported incidence of scurvy on Bartolomeu Dias voyage from 1486 - 1488.

It is for sure that the ships of Bartholomew Dias weren’t equipped with hammocks because it happened before hamocks were introduced in Europe.

It seems that Vasco da Gama’s ships where equipped with hammocks because Vasco da Gamma’s first voyage happened five years later after hamocks were introduced in Europe.

 
(I don’t have any evidence that Wasco de Gama’s ships where equipped with hammocks. I think that after hammocks were brought to Europe they where immediately adopted for use in sailing ships. Where or not Wasco De gama’s ships equped with hamokcs is the question that I couldn’t find the answer.)

Incidences of scurvy in Royal Navy are strongly asociated with hamocks.

Before Hamokcs were adopted for use on ships there is no recorded outbreack of the scurvy in the Royal Navy.

Quote
Around 1590, hammocks were adopted for use in sailing ships; the Royal Navy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammock

The first reported ourbreack of scurvy the English captain Sir Richard Hawkins is dating around that times.

Quote
The English sea captain Sir Richard Hawkins stated in 1622 that "In 20 years, since that I have used the sea, I dare take upon me to give accompt of 10,000 men consumed with scurvy" emphasizing the magnitude of the problem.
http://www.ltdk.helsinki.fi/users/hemila/history/

One more fact is that mainly, if not only, the sailors where afected with scurvy and the oficer wasn’t.

Quote
More background on the story shows that mainly the poor sailors got scurvy and the officers did not........ http://waltonfeed.com/self/health/vit-min/c.html

For majority of the people, the food is most obvious explanation for nearly almost every condition but in reality there is something more important then differences in food.

One of difference between sailors and officer is that officers were sleeping on beds and there were no beds for the sailors, just, hammocks.

It seems that hamocks played a crucial role in the outbreack of scurvy.

Apearence of bigger ships lead to the replacment of the hamocks with the beds and is asociates with disappearence of the scurvy.

I could’t find no one recorded outbreack of the scurvy were beds were avible for the sailors.

On the other hand there are two facts;

(1) Not every voyage is folowed by outbreack of scurvy.

(2) By outbreacks of the scurvy not every sailors was afected with scurvy.

It is to conclude that under sertain sircumstance sleeping on the hamoks for prolonged period of times while traweling on unstabile ship will sooner or later triger scurvy.

http://www.biomechanicsandhealth.com/biomechanicsandstroke.htm
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #71 on: 16/08/2009 20:28:51 »
So, we wait over a year and you come back. You fail to answer the questions asked and you say this
"The first recorded outbreaks of scurvy happened in the year of 1497 (Vasco Da Gama’s first voyage). "

Well; it's simply not true.
The ancient Greeks knew about scurvy.
 It was described by Hippocrates  (c. 460 BC–c. 380 BC).
There's a timeline for scurvy here.
http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/data/658/Mayberry.html

Anyway as was pointed out at some length before.
People in jail used to get scurvy; they don't go sailing.
Guinea pigs get scurvy- but they don't go sailing.
Vitamin C cures scurvy whether people stay on ship or not.
The detailed mechanism by which a shortage of vitamin C leads to scurvy is well understood.

You point out that "One more fact is that mainly, if not only, the sailors where affected with scurvy and the officer wasn't."
And as has been said before, that's because the officers were better fed.

While we are at it lets have a laugh at your supposed suggestion.

You say it's due to sleeping in hamocks.
yet, as you say "(1) Not every voyage is folowed by outbreak of scurvy.

(2) By outbreaks of the scurvy not every sailors was affected with scurvy."
Well, since every voyage was accompanied by sailors in hammocks and all the men- not just some of them - slept in hammocks, your own data shows that your idea must be wrong.


Once again I ask do you have anything to contribute or are you just spouting nonsense?
(and BTW, your latest website is hilarious.)
« Last Edit: 16/08/2009 20:45:51 by Bored chemist »
 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #72 on: 16/08/2009 20:54:44 »
Quote
So, we wait over a year and you come back. You fail to answer the questions asked and you say this
"The first recorded outbreaks of scurvy happened in the year of 1497 (Vasco Da Gama’s first voyage). "


I did wonder why I hadn't spotted this threadbefore then noticed the dates... ??? I'm curious to know why the posters decided to take the graveyard shift and resurrect this thread?

For GBSB, Ascorbic acid is required biochemically for a squillion things... but in terms of scurvy its needed as a cofactor ( although not a prosthetic group I believe) with lysyl and prolyl hydroxylase. Both these enzymes are essential in collagen structure.
Vit C is the D-enantiomer of ascorbic acid.

 

Offline Variola

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« Reply #73 on: 16/08/2009 20:57:09 »
Actually I fibbed, it's the L-enantiomer...I can't tell my left from my right!!! ;D
 

Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #74 on: 16/08/2009 22:09:01 »
My guess is the GBSB is trying to use this as a springboard for his weird ideas and website.
He has already been told many times that the biological role of ascorbic acid is well documented.
Reality doesn't seem to trouble him much.
Nor does the fact that propper science requires him to answer questions.
 

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The Scurvy, the Vitamin C and the Blasphemy
« Reply #74 on: 16/08/2009 22:09:01 »

 

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