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Author Topic: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?  (Read 12597 times)

Offline neilep

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Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« on: 01/05/2004 18:48:29 »
Good AM or Good PM to one and all.

Absolute zero is like, well cold yes ?....ok...can someone tell me if there is an absolute 'high' temperature ?....I suppose a good example would be at the instant of the big bang eh ?.....I'm probably wrong but if there is a definitve definition of the opposite of absolute zero then I would be interested to know for the forthcoming BBQ season.

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Offline Ylide

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #1 on: 01/05/2004 18:54:56 »
I suppose it would be the sum of the thermal component all the energy in the universe if you could somehow condense it, but I can't think of a physical law that proves its existance and/or attainability.  (or lack thereof)



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Offline gsmollin

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #2 on: 01/05/2004 19:54:01 »
Even at the instant of the big bang, there is no indication that there was an absolute highest temperature. We don't know enough about T=0 to say what the temperature was then. At 10E(-45) s the temperature was about 10E(32) K, the energy density was about 10E(120) J/m, and the universe was 10(-60) m in size.
 

Offline Ylide

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #3 on: 02/05/2004 22:31:11 »
Exactly my point.  Temperature is a measure of thermal/heat energy, the matter in the singularity of origin doesn't necessarily have to be in a form that radiates energy as heat.  Mathematically speaking, there's no upper limit (or put better, upper limit = infinity) in the equations of thermodynamics, merely a lower limit (T=0)





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Offline neilep

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #4 on: 02/05/2004 22:45:38 »
So the answer's NO then....cheers jay and Gsmollin....I can plan my BBQ without too much concern then !!

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Offline Titanscape

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #5 on: 03/05/2004 17:11:42 »
I would say that beyond the sum total of all the energy that ever existed in the universe that there may be some kind of wall and limit to heat energy as there is a limit to velocity.

With temperature and light levels there is a lower limit due to complete absence were it possible. But what if you could put all the energy of the universe into one Hydrogen atom only. How far could it disintergrate? Solids, liquids, gases, plasmas, then what? Like matter to light there may be a wall and limit, unless there are more poweful rays than X Rays. As in e=mc squared. So much energy need go into that conversion if done by acceleration of substance by thrusters.

Just how many sun atomic particals are there to be discovered? Perhaps there is a relationship between matter and dimensions as well. Perhaps there is a move into a fifth dimension.

Just think then as a hypothesis, what if there is a maximum number of sub atomic particals and a maximum velocity for them to travel at?

How is that my fellows?


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Offline neilep

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #6 on: 03/05/2004 17:27:26 »
Phew !!!...cheers  Bren.....well I'm convinced.....I suppose in theory/hypothetically anything is possible eh ?...at least with yours and everybodys help here I have learned that there does not seem to be a definitive term for the opposite for Absolute Zero...but the possibilty exists for there to be one though..it seems. Thanks.

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Offline Titanscape

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #7 on: 03/05/2004 17:28:10 »
If X Ray velocity is the limit, and with each fission due to energy levels rising, {after initial vapourisation}, being a calculable figure, with a set number of sub atomic particals, then perhaps it would not take any more energy. Also the energy to accelerate the particals until fission would need be known.

Similar to heating water with latent heat energy... and vapourisation... And if X Rays are the maximum powerful radiation in terms of wavelength and velocity, remembering the red shift factor and the nature of space permitting perhaps nothing faster.

In my above post I mispelled sub atomic as sun atomic.

So how do you like my ideas fellow science minded?


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Offline Titanscape

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #8 on: 03/05/2004 17:42:19 »
Acceleration to fission probably would not be the issue but instaed, the process of fission to the next fission, would be.  Proton to simpler and simpler particals until the limit, which may involve simlicity and maximum velocity. After all I think I have heard of slow moving sub atomic particals. A smash and fission could result in some cases in essential insant maximum velocity.

The whole universe could absorb quite alot of energy then, and a partical could be set up to be maxed out with less energy. And I hear it is very hard to smash the simplest particals.


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Offline Titanscape

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #9 on: 03/05/2004 17:50:52 »
quote:
Originally posted by Titanscape

Similar to heating water with latent heat energy... and vapourisation... And if X Rays are the maximum powerful radiation in terms of wavelength and velocity, remembering the red shift factor and the nature of space permitting perhaps nothing faster.

Titanscape



...Then a set calculable figure for at least one factor there can be included in the equation. From X Rays.

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Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #10 on: 04/05/2004 06:23:46 »
I think if we proved a maximum temp, we'd prove a limited size  to the universe due to what Jay said about a sum of all the energies in th universe.

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Offline neilep

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #11 on: 04/05/2004 11:32:28 »
Why would temperature be an indication of size ?..but before you answer that I think I kinda see your point but do not possess the academia to adequately describe it so.....hmmm pondering a bit !!!...err...if we got all the heat in the universe and condensed it I suppose we'd end up with a snowball eh ?...cos most of the universe is like the inside of my head...cold and empty !!...oh I don't know !! (effortlessy proves how little I know about said subject but is frustrated cos I'm very curious about it)

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Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #12 on: 05/05/2004 06:08:00 »
well because temp measures heat or energy.  If there is a limited amount of energy there is a limited size, because if there's not energy, what is there?

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Offline Ylide

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #13 on: 05/05/2004 08:30:13 »
I don't think temperature is any indicator of quanity of total energy, only quantity of thermal energy. (which is really kinetic energy...contrary to 1800 physics, heat is not a substance) Not all forms of energy readily convert to kinetic, for example potential energy.  Certain conditions must be met for this to happen.  Also, not all kinetic energy events demonstrate heat...but they can transfer it upon collision.  

I suppose in theory, the maximum temperature possible would be if every atom in the universe collided with every other atom and the kinetic energy was converted entirely into heat focused into a singularity.  But how are you going to read that temperature?  [:p]

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Offline neilep

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #14 on: 05/05/2004 10:35:46 »
That's what I thought Jay. that temperature is an indication of heat (thermal energy)...well that's what my thermometer says anyway.:)

But, I suppose it does go to prove that there is no term for the opposite of 'Absolute Zero' (yet) which is what my original question was.

 Though it is fascinating to hear everybodys postulations about how the defintion of the term may be discovered. Even though it is just theory...but hey...who knows what mathematical models may be constructed in the future ? I would love to come back in a few hundred years (assuming we haven't blown ouselves up by then, or some natural disaster or contagion hasn't wiped us out yet. Long live the cockroaches eh ?

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Offline tweener

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #15 on: 06/05/2004 02:54:00 »
I don't know where anyone says X rays are "maximum" or "most powerful" or anything like that.  X-rays are electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength shorter than ultraviolet and longer than gamma rays.  Thus X-rays travel at the speed of light, just like all other electromagnetic radiation, and they contain less energy per photon (and thus less penetrating power) than gamma rays.  
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« Last Edit: 06/05/2004 20:19:42 by tweener »
 

Offline gsmollin

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #16 on: 06/05/2004 16:54:09 »
What do we call them after "gamma"? I have information on gamma photons of up to 10E22 GeV, being created in the most energetic astrophysical events. These gammas have a stability problem, however, since they will form electron-positron pairs if they have to travel through a strong magnetic field.

Of course, big-bang gammas could have been more powerful than that, and would have annhiliated repeatedly as they formed baryons and anti-baryons. After the temperature dropped low enough, the baryon formation would have frozen out, and the anti-baryons would have annhiliated with the baryons, and we would be left with 1 part in 10E8 baryons left over from the primordial event.
 

Offline tweener

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #17 on: 06/05/2004 20:19:14 »
I guess there is no general classification higher than gamma radiation, but there is no hard cutoff to how energetic the radiation can be.  Like you say, some of the big-bang radiation was probably shorter wavelength than has been produced so far, but I don't really know.

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Offline neilep

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #18 on: 06/05/2004 22:25:01 »
I've just discovered the opposite to Absolute Zero !!!...it's the chilli sauce I've just had on my kebab !!!..BUUURRPP !!

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Offline tweener

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #19 on: 07/05/2004 04:46:33 »
Yum!  I've been craving hot stuff for weeks.  I got some Jalapenos last week, but they just aren't very hot.

Now I'm going to have to go fix a snack!

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Offline neilep

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #20 on: 07/05/2004 12:42:08 »
Have you ever tried Chilli Ice cream ?

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Offline tweener

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #21 on: 07/05/2004 19:52:48 »
No, but Jalapeno jelly is good.  Mostly I like my peppers with meat rather than sweets though.

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Offline neilep

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #22 on: 07/05/2004 20:04:42 »
Jalapeno Jelly and Chilli Ice Cream....I doubt my taste buds would know if they were coming or going !!!

Me too though John.....I find heat with meat is better than heat with a treat !!! (err...does that make any sense at all ?)

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Offline Ylide

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #23 on: 10/05/2004 17:20:13 »
Mmmmm, hot food.  I go to a Mexican restaurant once a week that has salsa that you could strip paint with.  It's astounding.  My lungs and sinuses are completely and totally purged after eating there.  

Back on topic, I happened to read in Scientific American last night that at the singularity containing significant amounts of matter, according to Hawkings, there is infinite temperature, density, and pressure.  It was a really cool article about the mature of time and space, and the feasibility of either one existing before the original singularity.



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Offline Titanscape

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #24 on: 10/05/2004 18:44:46 »
You are right. I didn't study physics but a friend did before medicine. I would have changed it anyway to "decay" from "fission" (as above) and need mention that the velocity of all photons are the same altho some have more energy.

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Re: Is there an opposite to Absolute Zero ?
« Reply #24 on: 10/05/2004 18:44:46 »

 

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