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Author Topic: After Death..  (Read 34058 times)

Offline Simulated

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After Death..
« Reply #50 on: 22/10/2007 21:44:02 »
Haha. Thanks for the laff I've been a little depressed lateayd
 

Offline johnbrandy

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« Reply #51 on: 12/11/2007 04:54:18 »
Reincarnation is a theory, and must be examined from that standpoint. Therefore, what tradition is being referenced, and what are its elements and assumptions. Until those concept are clarified, and subject to examination, this discussion has little meaning. Reincarnation does not operate in a vacuum. It has a context; a tradition that must be explained, if we intend to try to understand it, and subject it to intelligent discourse. Is this not reasonable?
 

Offline Simulated

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« Reply #52 on: 12/11/2007 12:14:48 »
Sounds good to me.
 

Offline johnbrandy

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« Reply #53 on: 16/11/2007 07:58:13 »
What happens after we die? This is one of the greatest mysteries. One might ask what happens to biological life after it expires; plant or animal. Can we learn from these examples. From the microscopic to the macroscopic, life strives to adapt and continue its' existence. Decayed plants, as well as animals in nature, provide nutriments for further life. If there is a key to understanding death, it must lie within our own consciousness. Yet, we cannot adequately define or characterize consciousness. Why is this? Many suggest that brain science is not advanced enough to answer this question. Others suggest this question will never be answered. Why? Because consciousness might primarily lies outside of biological existence. Yet we are consciousness. How is this possible? There are many properties that interact with biological existence, and make it possible. Sun light, heat, air, and so forth. Do these "elements" cease to exist at the point of death? Is consciousness a property of the universe that interacts with biological existence, and continues after death? I certainly cannot prove this proposition, but I do intuit as much. For me the question is, after death, do we retain our identity, and if not, is identity real. Further, the existence of consciousness "mediating" biological existence could lend some understanding to concepts such as the Collective Unconscious and related phenomenon.   
« Last Edit: 17/11/2007 00:57:31 by johnbrandy »
 

Offline Nobody's Confidant

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« Reply #54 on: 20/11/2007 17:51:42 »
Well, it's hard to find out what just is after death seeing as all the people who know what happens...are dead.

But I promise to come back and tell you guys all about it when i die, mmm k?
 

Offline Quantumorigin7

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« Reply #55 on: 17/06/2008 21:18:03 »
Is consciousness a property of the universe that interacts with biological existence, and continues after death? I certainly cannot prove this proposition, but I do intuit as much.

If you accept the theory of the mind as a hologram, then you will have a deeper understanding of how the mind can project itself in the universe at a higher dimension.
 

Offline benep

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« Reply #56 on: 17/06/2008 21:44:36 »
i don't know i don't think its totally black after you die but maybe you become the earth you're particles fuse with the earth tho there is no scientific proof of reincarnation just children saying they remember living in a street from their previous life  which could just be in a dream or something  and certainly no proof of heaven or hell neither is there proof in my theory so blackness does seem most likely tho its a rather harrowing thought...
 

Offline benep

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« Reply #57 on: 17/06/2008 21:51:23 »
Dunno, i always like to think it's in another dimension, somewhere beyond our universe and understanding of how things should work.

If it is 'another dimension' (i.e. a parallel universe), then from the point of view of our universe, it cannot exist (i.e. only that can be deemed to exist, in scientific terms, if it somehow interacts with what is here).

There is also a problem that if 'we' are leaking out to another universe, then what creates 'us'?  If there is a perpetual leakage of this kind, then somehow it must be draining what is here; or else, we must find some reverse flow from that other universe to us, both to prevent that other universe from becoming out of balance, and to prevent us from becoming drained of whatever it is that you think passes out from us to the other universe.

Once you start to look at a two way flow between the two universes, then they are no longer separate universes, because the two universes have an intimate bidirectional flow, and thus they form a single system, and thus a single universe.

With all this flow going on, we should have other physical effects that can be detected (and scientifically modelled) as a consequence of this flow.

Another problem with this notion of life after death (in whatever dimension it may be in), one has how one defines what 'we' are - what is the boundary between 'us' and not 'us'.  Insofar as we are talking about human beings (it is difficult to know how this theory is supposed to be applied to non-humans), we usually regard the boundary of a human being as being the animal body of that human being, but it is clear that the animal body of the human body perishes after death, so we must find a different definition of what is a human being.  If the parameters of what constitutes a human being is not limited by the human body, then why should there be any relationship between the human animal and your notion of a human being?  How can you show any correlation between the human animal and your construct of a human being which in other contexts you believe can exist outside of the body of the human animal?
not to be rude but you're speaking as if we are the only life form and the main life form that actually exists maybe there is another universe with different outcomes or action then us e.g if i killed someone in my universe maybe in the other one i didnt so maybe your "soul" finds a way to that universe without the draining of our universe tho i do believe there may be different universes maybe not paralell but a diferent universe with different life forms
 

Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #58 on: 17/06/2008 21:58:25 »
I believe that also.. about maybe different life forms and such also!
 

Offline benep

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« Reply #59 on: 17/06/2008 22:06:56 »
yeah i dont think we're the ONLY life form in existance at this moment we humans are probably not even the main life form we only think that because we dont know of any other life forms thats how self absorbed we are! so im nearly positive theres another life form somewhere in existance that hasnt shown itself to us either out of fear or just simply not knowing about us
 

Offline Simulated

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« Reply #60 on: 17/06/2008 22:08:19 »
Yeah, still think reincarnation is real. I don't know why, but I do
 

Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #61 on: 17/06/2008 22:10:26 »
yeah i dont think we're the ONLY life form in existance at this moment we humans are probably not even the main life form we only think that because we dont know of any other life forms thats how self absorbed we are! so im nearly positive theres another life form somewhere in existance that hasnt shown itself to us either out of fear or just simply not knowing about us

yep
I agree!

Hi Ben I am a new Life form nice to see you!
 

Offline benep

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« Reply #62 on: 17/06/2008 22:11:30 »
yeah i dont think we're the ONLY life form in existance at this moment we humans are probably not even the main life form we only think that because we dont know of any other life forms thats how self absorbed we are! so im nearly positive theres another life form somewhere in existance that hasnt shown itself to us either out of fear or just simply not knowing about us

yep
I agree!

Hi Ben I am a new Life form nice to see you!
lol hi karen nice to see you too what is your life form called?
 

Offline benep

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« Reply #63 on: 17/06/2008 22:12:49 »
Yeah, still think reincarnation is real. I don't know why, but I do
yeah i had a pretty strong belif in that too but i just started thinking of others and stuck to the one i believe in now
 

Offline johnbrandy

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« Reply #64 on: 19/06/2008 04:10:40 »
Re:Quantumorigin7. Consciousness as hologram is a genuinely deep concept. I did a quick, cursory web search. A reasonable understanding of this subject, as it relates to modeling consciousness requires serious study. I wish you would explore your understanding of this subject further; how the holographic model of the brain can explain consciousness, and how that understanding relates with and can project itself into the universe. I am far from sure if the concept of higher dimensions figures in such understanding. If the holographic model of the mind provides a better understanding of consciousness, and this model parallels our understanding of the universe, I would suggest that, of necessity, the holographic mind must lie in the same dimensional field as the universe, otherwise the respective, and alleged congruency would appear to be incorrect. Seemingly, we have a ways to go before science can establish the validity of the holographic model of the mind, and how it might accord with the "conscious" universe. I am not suggesting that my post can hope to compare in any way with this elegant, and internally coherent perspective. In my view, topics of this kind are offered to generate thoughtful, interesting, and stimulating ideas. What is great about this practice is that it can stretch the thinking process and assist in training the mind. Ideas engendered herein can find fruitful applications in other domains of thinking. Since reincarnation cannot be proved, I would suggest that one of our task is to "track" the origin of this idea. Historically, this might be impossible, yet it is possible to intelligently speculate as to why cultures or individuals "created" the need to transcend death, in the form of reincarnation. I am suggesting that the need to create reincarnation is exactly the same need that led to a belief in the afterlife, if not God and religion. If there is a God, a perfect deity, why are there so many distinct religions. Why did a perfect God allow this to happen? Don't blame mankind. The common view is that God started the whole process. A perfect God would have planned better; perfectly. Virtually every culture intuited a divinity, and created religions, customs, and practices to acknowledge as much. Therefore I am not questioning the existence of a divine "principle" operating in the world. If anything, I am questing the interpretation of this principle. The similarities of religions, derived completely independently, persuade me, among other facts, that there is indeed a cosmic essence, mediating a influence within distinct cultures. Unfortunately, conditioned thinking, and societal pressures, customs, and beliefs, restrict understanding. As to why this happened, is the real mystery. I cannot believe it happened by design. At the same time I believe, as impossible as it appears, enlightened thinking is possible.     
« Last Edit: 19/06/2008 04:12:45 by johnbrandy »
 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #65 on: 19/06/2008 08:57:51 »
Considering this is a science forum, perhaps discussions should be based upon evidence and scientific research into the topic, rather than pure belief and conjecture.
 

Offline Quantumorigin7

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« Reply #66 on: 19/06/2008 12:47:28 »
That's a bit hard to do because it's one of those things scientists would rather not really spend all their time on. The cure for cancer is the most important.
 

Offline Karen W.

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« Reply #67 on: 19/06/2008 15:09:29 »
yeah i dont think we're the ONLY life form in existance at this moment we humans are probably not even the main life form we only think that because we dont know of any other life forms thats how self absorbed we are! so im nearly positive theres another life form somewhere in existance that hasnt shown itself to us either out of fear or just simply not knowing about us

yep
I agree!

Hi Ben I am a new Life form nice to see you!
lol hi karen nice to see you too what is your life form called?

Well I don't rightly know young man. but I am one of a kind thats for sure! They broke the mold when they made me!
 

Offline johnbrandy

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« Reply #68 on: 20/06/2008 02:59:34 »
Re: Stefan, the topic, reincarnation, and this discussion, of which you are a party to, fall far from the tree of scientific evidence. There is no solid scientific evidence for reincarnation. There may be analogies, grounded in established scientific understanding, that constitute theories or reasonable speculation, as to the viability of reincarnation. How can anyone explore the potential validity of reincarnation from a scientific perspective, without viewing it in the context from which it originated; namely religion, most notably, the Hindu religion? Though, I did not previously mention this particular religion, I assumed this progenitor of reincarnation is widely accepted. Since scientific explanations  of this topic are difficult, if not impossible to "demonstrate", I felt the need to entertain some relevant non-scientific ideas and possible explanations. A science forum must and does allow for an expanded view, especially with respect to subjects of this type. Science does not operate in a vacuum. Topics, such as reincarnation, are not limited to the exclusive purview of pure science, obviously. If that were the case, reincarnation would be an established scientific principle, idea, or concept, offered for discussion. If other disciplines, or ways of thinking, proffers a more reasonable explanations than science provides, relative to the ideas raised herein, why ignore or debunk them, in an offhanded fashion? If other disciplines, or ways of thinking can offer a better, or at least a reasonable explanation, why ignore, or discount them, unless one has a valid reason for doing so. In point of fact, it is unscientific to disregard logical and intelligent; explanations or reasonable speculation, simple because such opinions do not accord with established scientific understanding. I submit the above for your consideration.   
« Last Edit: 20/06/2008 06:37:49 by johnbrandy »
 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #69 on: 20/06/2008 08:06:13 »
John, I understand your perspective. My point was that belief and conjecture without evidence does not belong on a science forum. You may speculate and formulate hypotheses, but until irrefutable supporting evidence is found, you cannot consider any such speculation or "explanations" logical or rational; you do not even have evidence of the phenomenon in the first place! What is there to "explain"?

Which discipline can be considered logical/rational/reasonable if it does not base itself on evidence? How is the idea of an afterlife logical or rational? Its superstitious origins do not help your argument.

I don't think all ideas should be rejected offhand, but all ideas should be subjected to critique, and it really is easy to "debunk" the irrational idea of an afterlife. Try and find tangible evidence for it, sure, but don't fall into the trap of accepting and believing just because it feels good.

Also, remember Occam's Razor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor

There is a quote attributed to Mark Twain in relation to death and an afterlife:

"I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
 

Offline Quantumorigin7

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« Reply #70 on: 22/06/2008 20:42:49 »
I heard that one a million times and he's wrong, he wasn't dead for billions of years. So far, from what I heard, the universe is possibly infinite, so he could have stated "I was dead for sometime in infinity" Hard to grasp, how can you measure infinity when all we know is finite? If the universe is infinite, we will never find out what's on the other side.
 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #71 on: 23/06/2008 04:42:57 »
The Big Bang occurred approximately 13.7 0.13 billion years ago. The age of the known universe is NOT infinite. Twain's quote still stands.

If the word "dead" is also your problem, define death or non-living as the absence of biological processes of an object. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life
 

Offline Quantumorigin7

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« Reply #72 on: 23/06/2008 16:24:01 »
I knew the 13.7 billion years thing, trust me, but I also considered infinity, which seems like a fairy tale, but is something to really get your mind turning. If the universe were infinite, then the universe was always there, it can't just begin and then last forever. Anything with a beginning will have an end. Matter was created in the beginning and will be destroyed in the end. It may change form over time, but not for infinity. That's my ignorant belief from what I've read and heard, my conclusion, so to speak.

We never reached other universes, other dimensions, we never really had actual LAW tell us that there are other universes, it's just theory. And if it is just theory, this universe IS the universe, so then the question once again arises, what started this universe for certain?
 

Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #73 on: 24/06/2008 08:33:16 »
The universe is _not_ infinite in age, since time was zero at the big bang.

It is fallacious to assume that all things which have been created will be destroyed. What is your basis for this assumption? What is the point of coming to that ignorant conclusion?

You are using the scientific terms incorrectly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory#Science
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_%28disambiguation%29#Science_and_mathematics

See also: http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/big-bang.html Interesting read.
 

Offline Quantumorigin7

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« Reply #74 on: 24/06/2008 14:10:40 »
If the earliest universe was void of matter, then matter was created.
 

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After Death..
« Reply #74 on: 24/06/2008 14:10:40 »

 

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