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Offline francogrex

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Life and afterlife
« on: 15/08/2007 20:16:17 »
This is not a theory really but more like wonderings and questions:
You "come" into this world (from where? from nowhere), live around 80 years,  probably a little more, even more probably a bit less, and the it's over, you go back to non-existance, the same "place" you came from. People instinctively don't accept the idea of death, of not being here anymore, or going to nonexistance, a place where there are no thoughts, no emotions, no shapes, no sounds, no feelings, a place where there is no place! For that reason we created beliefs of an afterlife but logic and science are showing us more and more that it's nonesense (are they showing us really well. Some think that maybe one way of "beating" death is procreation. Although when you pass on your genes you don't pass on your consciousness, it dies with you. Procreation helps maybe "immortalize" the species as a whole but not the individuals. For me the closest thing to death is a sleep without any dreams: like those 2 hours a night of dreamless non-REM sleep where you're nowhere (or for people who have been in a coma for months or years), and then you wake up at one point not knowing how the time elapsed and you had no notion of it and of where you were during that period, except that in death you'll never gonna wake up anymore, it will stretch to infinity. Doesn't matter if you lived a good or bad, happy or miserable life, it's going to end and you'll have no memory of it at all, there'll be no place to rejoice or regret or miss, actually there will be nothing at all. And why not? What's 80-90 years compared to an infinity of non-existance?
In all this my wonderings are still the same wondering of all humanity since it's birth: what's the meaning of all this? Why? What's the purpose? Is it all a haphazard thing without any purpose all occurred by chance and natural selections like some say?
It's also frustrating that there is almost no serious research about this, but I'm supposing it's the ultimate question people want to answer and yet all our resources are going for infintely less important mundane things. I have more thoughts and ideas but I look forward to some feedback from you guys on this first.


 

Offline neilep

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« Reply #1 on: 15/08/2007 23:27:35 »
Hi Francogrex....and WELCOME

I once asked here if sleep was like a slice of death http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=1959.0

I suppose it's difficult to research because when you die, brain activity ceases, body functions stop....and deterioration starts !...

It's difficult to research unless you know what to look for !..it's a bit of a catch 22 isn't it ?

I don't think there is any point to life except the point you make for yourself !!...and that is I hope...... to make the best of your life whilst you have the ability to be be able to live it....not just for yourself but for the world around you too.

I have to say..I often think about the fact that when we're gone...then that is it...forever !!!..for all time.........no more existence ever !!

Others will no doubt say that there is another existence afterwards....they may be right.....but I personally don't think so !!....in my opinion !!

 

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« Reply #2 on: 16/08/2007 00:23:29 »
If you buy a motor car, and it stays with you, as part of your family, until it finally falls apart and goes to the breakers yard; that too had a period of time over which it functioned, and then it ceased to function.  Humans are no different to that.

Nonetheless, for the 15 years or so that you owned the motor car, it was a part of your life, and contributed to the changes in your life at that time.  Depending on what was happening in your life at that time, it may have helped to take your kids to school, it may have taken you on vacation; and it is now a part of what you are today, because of the role it played in your life in the past.

If that is what a simple car can do, what more can a complex human being achieve.

I would argue that the major portion of immortality that one achieves with children is not with the donation of one's genes, but with the donation of one's memes.  But memes can be transferred not only top one's children, but to wide variety of people, and so through that one may continue a braoder immortality.

For the starting position of your question - to say we come into this world from nowhere - but we do not 'come into this world', but we are created by this world, as a part of this world, and our being is an inheritance of what this world has given us, and during our lives so too will we give to others in this world so they may inherit from us as we inherited from those before.
 

paul.fr

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« Reply #3 on: 16/08/2007 07:35:57 »
Hi Franco, i am half asleep and so may be on the wrong track. But, you may find this topic interesting...may.http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=7198.0
 

Offline francogrex

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« Reply #4 on: 16/08/2007 15:52:24 »
If you buy a motor car, and it stays with you, as part of your family, until it finally falls apart and goes to the breakers yard; that too had a period of time over which it functioned, and then it ceased to function.  Humans are no different to that.

Before anything, I would like to clarify that if I express my disagreement to something it's for the purpose of having a socratic animated discussion and not just for the pleasure of contradicting...
Analogy appreciated but to equate a human with a motor engine is not very logical. A motor engine is inert, it doesn't replicate itself and it doesn't build itself spontaneously, it's build by a human to serve a function and then it could be recycled and rebuild again same as before if needed with exactly the same material if anyone would bother doing that.
If same logic applies, then in a not so near future (or maybe a near one), humans would also be recycled and rebuilt, hence they would never die. But paradoxically if humans would never die, then maybe there would probably be no need to reproduce and hence we would never have existed.
« Last Edit: 16/08/2007 16:11:45 by francogrex »
 

another_someone

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« Reply #5 on: 16/08/2007 18:30:53 »
Before anything, I would like to clarify that if I express my disagreement to something it's for the purpose of having a socratic animated discussion and not just for the pleasure of contradicting...

I have no problem with that, and will accept it in that light.

Analogy appreciated but to equate a human with a motor engine is not very logical.

Au contraire, one of the most common uses for an analogy is to take a complex idea and compare it to something that is similar, but substantially simpler.  In that respect, comparing a complex human being to a simpler notion of a motor car, while (as with all analogies) will lose some of the detail associated with the complexity, is an eminently logical analogy to make.

A motor engine is inert, it doesn't replicate itself and it doesn't build itself spontaneously, it's build by a human to serve a function and then it could be recycled and rebuild again same as before if needed with exactly the same material if anyone would bother doing that.
If same logic applies, then in a not so near future (or maybe a near one), humans would also be recycled and rebuilt, hence they would never die. But paradoxically if humans would never die, then maybe there would probably be no need to reproduce and hence we would never have existed.

Whether a motor car is inert, or whether a human being is inert, is open to interpretation.  To a substantial extent, a motor car responds to its environment, just as a human being does (albeit in a simpler fashion).

That a motor car is not self replicating is without contradiction; but self replication is not necessarily a pertinent issue in this case.

With regard to recycling, I would disagree with you on a number of counts.

Technically, one a motor car reaches the end of its life, it is not recycled in its entirety.  Many of the materials used to construct the motor car may indeed be recycled, but they will very likely be recycled to form some other entity (e.g. plastics may be used to create plastic bags, or boxes).  In the same way, the materials of the human body may be recycled to create worms, or other living creatures.  Whether in either case you regard this as a form of immortality is open to debate, but I would rather suggest it would be a weak argument.
 

Offline francogrex

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« Reply #6 on: 16/08/2007 19:38:11 »
Hi Francogrex....and WELCOME

Hi neilep and thanks for reply and the welcome. I have a simple logistic question since I'm a newbie I have tried to insert a signature quotation (one that I like a lot from Pascal) to appear everytime I post a message but doesn't seem to work. Is there a trick to it. Thanks.
 

Offline neilep

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« Reply #7 on: 16/08/2007 21:14:01 »
Hi Francogrex....and WELCOME

Hi neilep and thanks for reply and the welcome. I have a simple logistic question since I'm a newbie I have tried to insert a signature quotation (one that I like a lot from Pascal) to appear everytime I post a message but doesn't seem to work. Is there a trick to it. Thanks.

Yes sir...just click on your own name and there on the left you will find a heading that says Forum Profile Information !..click on that and then scroll down you'll see a box that says' SIGNATURE '....put your Pascal quote there !!...Then click CHANGE PROFILE...I think it might then ask you for our password again...VOILA !!!
« Last Edit: 16/08/2007 21:16:38 by neilep »
 

Offline kkawohl

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« Reply #8 on: 19/08/2007 18:06:55 »
...People instinctively don't accept the idea of death, of not being here anymore, or going to nonexistance, a place where there are no thoughts, no emotions, no shapes, no sounds, no feelings, a place where there is no place! For that reason we created beliefs of an afterlife but logic and science are showing us more and more that it's nonesense (are they showing us really well. Some think that maybe one way of "beating" death is procreation. Although when you pass on your genes you don't pass on your consciousness, it dies with you. 
...In all this my wonderings are still the same wondering of all humanity since it's birth: what's the meaning of all this? Why? What's the purpose? Is it all a haphazard thing without any purpose all occurred by chance and natural selections like some say?
It's also frustrating that there is almost no serious research about this, but I'm supposing it's the ultimate question people want to answer and yet all our resources are going for infintely less important mundane things. I have more thoughts and ideas but I look forward to some feedback from you guys on this first.

Physical evidence of a supernatural existence is an impossibility. There is ongoing debate whether the continuance of our consciousness (spirit/soul) into a universal consciousness constitutes the Intelligent Designer. Rational faith is logical faith, newbielink:http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Transcendology [nonactive]
a faith that supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not capable of existing or transpiring…and the doctrine and proclamation that spiritual transcendence and spiritual interaction, if one believes this to be an actuality, could only be possible between the spiritual existence and the spirit of man…are based on rational certainty and the knowledge that the contrary would violate the laws of nature.
 

Offline Quantumorigin7

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« Reply #9 on: 29/08/2007 17:22:27 »
All I can say is I am very very afraid to die, I don't want to just go back to nothing, i want there to be something after this.

We can't think of non-existance because we didn't know what it was like before we were born. But how can you go from knowing something to knowing nothing, that is beyond me.

If this is the last life, then it's unfair for the blind, the deaf, or for people with both, because it's as if they knew nothing, ever!!
 

Offline kkawohl

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« Reply #10 on: 29/08/2007 18:56:41 »
All I can say is I am very very afraid to die, I don't want to just go back to nothing, i want there to be something after this.
 

There is something after physical life...I guarantee it...I've experienced it
 

paul.fr

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« Reply #11 on: 29/08/2007 21:46:14 »
If this is the last life, then it's unfair for the blind, the deaf, or for people with both, because it's as if they knew nothing, ever!!

do you think deaf and/or blind people go around thinking life is unfair to them, wallowing in self pitty?
 

Offline Quantumorigin7

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« Reply #12 on: 29/08/2007 22:45:36 »
Oh it's the Hero member, I can't possibly be correct under his authority.

So how did you experience the afterlife KK.
 

Offline kkawohl

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« Reply #13 on: 29/08/2007 23:52:06 »
Oh it's the Hero member, I can't possibly be correct under his authority.

you are correct godhastoexist

So how did you experience the afterlife

Nothing in life is simple...but if you really wish to know...see my profile website...or freely browse my Spiritual Journey at newbielink:http://urantia.us [nonactive]
 

paul.fr

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« Reply #14 on: 30/08/2007 00:00:04 »
Oh it's the Hero member, I can't possibly be correct under his authority.

it's not about being right. i just don't think people who are deaf...want your pity. Also, you don't have to be deaf...to get to the end of your life and know nothing, do you?

Me a hero! that reminds me of the time i saved a group of college girls by giving them the kiss of life. Strange how they protested that they were only sunbathing. some people eh.
 

Offline kkawohl

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« Reply #15 on: 30/08/2007 00:38:57 »
Me a hero! that reminds me of the time i saved a group of college girls by giving them the kiss of life. Strange how they protested that they were only sunbathing. some people eh.

You are a true hero...a real Male Man.
 

paul.fr

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« Reply #16 on: 30/08/2007 11:50:56 »
it has been said many times before, but i thank you for saying it.
 

Offline stormwarning

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« Reply #17 on: 08/09/2007 14:42:46 »
Life after Death, Fantasy or Fact
Our body is controlled by our brain, which is a a lump of mush that is continuously firing neurons and electrons (electrical impulses),OK the presence or lack off these is how Medics decide if you are alive or dead. Brain Death is classed as true death.
Question. Electricity is hard to dissipate, so where does our electrical impulses go to? Are some people more attuned to pick up these impulses that may be floating around in the ether and see them as Ghosts?
Is this the Life after Death Phenomenon?
 

Offline the environmentalist

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« Reply #18 on: 19/09/2007 20:28:03 »
would it be possible for this energy to be released in the form of matter?  I know it probably isn't, but still,it would be a nice idea that your mind is recycled as well as your body. some of you will probably know about matter and antimatter co-existing in void, and how energy is borrowed from the future (if you don't have a clue, it was on a documentary about the atom a while ago, you could probably find someone explaining it somewhere). maybe the same thing happens in death, something is brought into life, and the energy released at its time of death is used to create it, yes this is a paradox (I think), but in a way it almost makes sense, for if the matter/antimatter theory is correct, this is indeed possible, but on a larger scale.
« Last Edit: 19/09/2007 20:35:09 by the environmentalist »
 

Offline Quantumorigin7

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« Reply #19 on: 17/06/2008 17:45:32 »
I disagree 100% with the first statement of this topic. Our minds "project" to a higher dimension when we cease to exist. We are either born again or we pass on to the next "dimension" which is looked at in various ways. I prefer to look at it as a supernatural order, because why would we just go there in the first place? Yes, sub-atomic particles can interact with each other, if their make-up is the same, no matter where the exist, but that doesn't explain the step to another dimension. The mind, in theory, can be looked at as a hologram. Anyone who says we die and just say we don't know anything is close minded, we need to think like Rod Serling, the 4th., the 5th. and even a 6th. dimension and maybe further. Each dimension coincides and intersects some point in time and create unimaginable events. One of them being the "crossing over" from life to death and living again, but possibly as another person 6000 years later, or being a higer, soul form in a dimension will will never really understand.
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #20 on: 18/06/2008 14:08:16 »
Why would the event of death suddenly trigger energy/matter or the configuration/information of the energy/matter that makes up our conciousness to travel into another person, dimension or time?
 

Offline Quantumorigin7

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« Reply #21 on: 18/06/2008 19:26:37 »
It could be within our evolutionary code, or there very well is something out there beyond time itself. Take sub-atomic particles for instance. They can communicate with one another instantaneously no matter how far apart, in theory. So, if your minds are set to do so, we could very well project our minds to a certain point in another dimension, the only dimension that contains the like sub-atomic particles.
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #22 on: 18/06/2008 20:34:29 »
Evolution favours traits which help a species reproduce. Anything happening after death would have nothing to do with evolution.
 

Offline Quantumorigin7

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« Reply #23 on: 18/06/2008 21:07:21 »
The universe evolved over time. Evolution is a term that can be applied to anything that changed over time with natural selection, trial and error, labor, etc.
 

Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #24 on: 19/06/2008 10:26:36 »
Well then where is our evolutionary code written if you weren't talking about DNA
 

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