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Author Topic: Varicose Veins & Oedema Study Inclined Bed Therapy IBT Alternative to Surgery  (Read 219301 times)

alun006

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Karen W

Thankyou for your support.

The confirmation will come on wednesday, if it is a aneurysm.  However, i wanted to ask? does your bulge have a pulse, as i have not found this on mine.

P.S
Karen, can i also ask if you are still on i.b.t and is it helping with your health.

Thanks alun006
« Last Edit: 28/11/2008 12:43:31 by alun006 »

Andrew K Fletcher

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As I said in out MSN conversation, a pulse should be noticed on examination if it is an arterial bulge or (arterial aneurysm) It should also be firmer than a venous bulge or (blow out) according to the video shown on the link in the first post on this thread. The couch reflex is another indication that this may be a venous blow out / aneurysm, again die to the very soft collapsible nature of the bulge and that the bulge is improving and remaining flat for prolonged periods indicates it is more like a varicose vein than an arterial bulge. We will have to wait and hear the results from the ultrasound to confirm this.

Great news that the problem appears to be resolving itself on Inclined Bed Therapy and that it is level with the skin more than it is raised above the skin as was the case when you first noticed it.

If the problem was worsening rather than improving cause for concern might be in order.

Surgical repair should not become necessary if it is a vein you are observing.
 
Andrew

alun006

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Hi Andrew

It is good to be able to tell you that the bulge in the groin has been described as a anuryseum in the vein ( a bulge in the vein), which means it is not a artery anuryseum bulge problem.

The Doctor has ask me to see a specialist, as he would like to know how this has happened in that area. and the fact it is a vein bulge.

Your advice and support is appreciated, You were spot on with whot you thought about the vein.

I am now hoping that more people will help you with this important study, so instead of them just reading about this amazingly simple therapy and deciding to go try it, they will help by coming back to the study thread and report their findings.

Thankyou alun006

Karen W.

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Karen W

Thankyou for your support.

The confirmation will come on wednesday, if it is a aneurysm.  However, i wanted to ask? does your bulge have a pulse, as i have not found this on mine.

P.S
Karen, can i also ask if you are still on i.b.t and is it helping with your health.

Thanks alun006
Hi Alun,

Your Welcome...hope all goes well for you!

My varicose vein bulge has no pulse..... but my Aneurysms are located in the Ascending Aorta.. and one in the Descendining side also.. I can somewhat feel the area onascending side more because it hurts at times and I have found my chest is very tender over that spot... no Pulse I am aware of, but mine are arterrial Aneurysms.. not veinous..

 I am not on IBT at this moment..as Rob has not put it back up yet and  I had a incident a week ago,, not anything to do with the IBT.. nothing ..I wish to discuss... right now.. later for sure...

It was helping my veins as well as eodema..also sleep and breathing is easier in that position.....
something elde the bottpm of my feet had quit hurting! They were hurting as soon as I stood up and continued to hurt after lying down!

 Will do it again when I get a release from the doctor.

Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Alun
Many people who have read this thread must be trying it or considering trying IBT. It baffles me why some people take and never contribute anything towards our study. This is the most disheartening thing about all these years spent researching this wonderful discovery. You are a rare find Alun. Your unselfish openness and willingness to help others by sharing your experiences is commendable and very much appreciated.

Great news that the bulge is a varicose vein. You also mentioned other improvements that the doctor picked up on regarding improvements in muscles. Can you elaborate on this a little more?

A person got back to me 2 days ago saying he thought Naked Scientists forum was closed to the general public and required qualifications to join it. Maybe this is putting people off taking part in our study?

Let us hope that people reading your last post will respond and join us.

Andrew




Hi Andrew

It is good to be able to tell you that the bulge in the groin has been described as a anuryseum in the vein ( a bulge in the vein), which means it is not a artery anuryseum bulge problem.

The Doctor has ask me to see a specialist, as he would like to know how this has happened in that area. and the fact it is a vein bulge.

Your advice and support is appreciated, You were spot on with whot you thought about the vein.

I am now hoping that more people will help you with this important study, so instead of them just reading about this amazingly simple therapy and deciding to go try it, they will help by coming back to the study thread and report their findings.

Thankyou alun006

Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Karen.

You posted some of your experiences using IBT on another thread relating to your heart condition. There were some very useful blood pressure measurements and photographs. Could I ask you to copy and paste them onto this thread so we can show how IBT improved your blood pressure and oedema? Also if you could take some more photographs of your legs before you tilt the bed again it would be a brilliant comparison with you having reverted back to flat bed rest for so long.

Regards

Andrew

Hi Alun,

Your Welcome...hope all goes well for you!

My varicose vein bulge has no pulse..... but my Aneurysms are located in the Ascending Aorta.. and one in the Descending side also.. I can somewhat feel the area on ascending side more because it hurts at times and I have found my chest is very tender over that spot... no Pulse I am aware of, but mine are arterial Aneurysms.. not venous..

 I am not on IBT at this moment as Rob has not put it back up yet and  I had a incident a week ago,, not anything to do with the IBT.. nothing ..I wish to discuss... right now.. later for sure...

It was helping my veins as well as oedema. .also sleep and breathing is easier in that position.....
something else the bottom of my feet had quit hurting! They were hurting as soon as I stood up and continued to hurt after lying down!

 Will do it again when I get a release from the doctor.

alun006

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Andrew,
Found photo from before i.b.t on my calf, was disappointed with the photo as i felt it did not show much of the vein in that area, however as you may be able to see their has been a change in the appearance even though both photos have been taken in a slightly different way.

CALF TOP BEFORE I.B.T (TAKEN CLOSE UP AT THE TOP)

6 MONTHS LATER  (TAKEN A BIT FURTHER AWAY THAN THE FIRST)


Thankyou alun006

Andrew K Fletcher

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WHY so Long for accepting what is after all inevitable?
Quote
Today is a good day! ,Wednesday 17-Nov-1999
writes,Nope  today is truly great day!
I had a chance meeting with a vascular surgeon a couple of weeks ago
he listened as I rambled on about gravity  as I do. He then said that
he had to check out my ideas at the hospital and within an hour he came
back to me saying that he had found someone who I was helping and that
the inclined bed appeared to work.
His interest is in circulatory problems including oedema  gangrene
varicose veins and leg ulcer.
An important development is now taking place with regards of setting up
a clinically controlled study into varicose veins  oedema and gangrene.
A vascular surgeon has expressed an interest in my work and wants to
become involved with a study to see what effect gravity has on the
above conditions. I have waited so long for this to happen and am
delighted with the outcome to say the least.
Last year I met with Professor Ernst and three Doctors at Exeter
University  during a presentation of my findings. Professor Ernst said
that he found the whole subject fascinating and would like to see a
study conducted. Unfortunately The Dr who Professor Ernst recommended
would have nothing to do with the study. This was a major set back as
we were hoping to include many of his patients on the study.
I have written to Professor Ernst and informed him of the vascular
surgeons interest and he has written to me asking me to jointly write a
protocol for the study. When completed Professor Ernst will edit the
protocol and help to present the case for obtaining funding. Ernst is
one of the Worlds leading figures in alternative and complimentary
medicine.
The Journal for Alternative and Complimentary medicine are to publish a
feature about my discovery  either this month or next.
John Simkins formally Chairman of the Multiple Sclerosis Resource
Centre in Essex  called on Sunday to tell me that he was at a meeting
with over 200 people involved in MS. He was amazed when someone stated
publicly that raising a bed by six inches at the head end significantly
reduces the production of urine and reduces the number of times that
people go to the bathroom at night. He asked if he could give my name
and telephone number in a paper he is writing about the meeting. I of
course agreed.
I met Adrian Sanders  MP on Sunday and he has visited the message board
which is frequented by all of the people involved in our study on the
Internet. He printed out the information and is attempting to gain the
interest of the new Minister for Health. Adrian attempted to set up a
meeting with the former Health Minister Frank Dobson but was blocked by
Civil Servants and is concerned that the same Civil Servants are still
in Office. At the very least Adrian  who appeared in the Local Papers
in support of my work  expects to generate some government interest
this time and is now even more determined to push this important
discovery forward.
There is currently a tremendous amount of professional and
non-professional interest in our discovery by people all over the World
 due to the positive study results on the Internet Message Board. Thank
you Cheryl for setting this up and maintaining it in an orderly way.
Lawrence  who is now the Manager for the Multiple Sclerosis Resource
Centre is planning to visit me this month to learn more about my
research and to discuss how we could move this forward with regards to
reaching more people with multiple sclerosis. Lawrence would like to
see a controlled study set up independently of myself to see if the
results can be replicated. However I feel that this would leave me high
and dry  as usual  with zero funding  unless I can become involved in
someway.
Andrew
« Last Edit: 25/12/2008 12:12:35 by Andrew K Fletcher »

OldDragon

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This is excellent news, Andrew.

Not been around much of late, as so busy this time of year, but can report that my oedema is still behaving itself, and I can now get my wellies, plus thick socks on and with the legs of my trews tucked into those boots easily. Not had any repeats of the phlebitis that I am prone to, either.
« Last Edit: 27/12/2008 02:48:09 by OldDragon »

Andrew K Fletcher

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Brilliant. Thanks for the update about your oedema problem being sorted out using Inclined Bed Therapy. (The opposite tilting of a bed to mainstream advice) Impressive also because you have been subjected to chemotherapy and the disruption this has on your system, one would anticipate some increased fluid retention. But this presents a problem for curent thinking on the cause of oedema.
The post above is from earlier research. Was placed there so that people can see just how long this research has been kept out of mainstream medicine. The sad thing is that each time we get close to conducting a controlled study. The doctors back out and do not keep their word. Same goes for the charities!

This is excellent news, Andrew.

Not been around much of late, as so busy this time of year, but can report that my oedema is still behaving itself, and I can now get my wellies, plus thick socks and the legs of my trews tucked into those boots easily. Not had any repeats of the phlebitis that I am prone to, either.
« Last Edit: 25/12/2008 12:02:58 by Andrew K Fletcher »

OldDragon

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Damn, I didn't notice the date on that quoted post, sorry.

I should also have mentioned that my lumbar spine - the area where xrays show that I've a  chronic degenerative problem/osteoarthritis has been remarkably pain free of late. Usually, at this time of the year, that can be particularly painful - well, give me a constant dull aching sensation that can really wear one's spirits down. As things stand, I get just a bit of discomfort there if I over-do things, and also in my right hip, but that is also pretty good, too. Wish I could say the same regarding the ongoing nerve pain that seems to be lingering at the site of the last op! Despite it being nearly six months since that op, and nearly a month since the last chemo cycle, today it has been feeling as if I've an alien rodent attempting to chew its way out from under my oxter! It's a very weird sensation - especially as the surface of the skin there is still numb!

Andrew K Fletcher

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Al, thank you for posting your observations for us. Glad you are finding some pain relief from IBT too, especially with what you have recently been through regarding chemotherapy.

The nerve pain you are experiencing could be part of a healing process going on to repair the damage done by surgery in the area you mentioned.

Are the varicose veins and oedema still improving, or have they remained stable for several months?

Has anyone commented on your appearance as Chemotherapy often has an impact on general health and welbeing? Has your hair condition improved at all during chemotherapy or has Chemo prevented any regrowth?

Damn, I didn't notice the date on that quoted post, sorry.

I should also have mentioned that my lumbar spine - the area where xrays show that I've a  chronic degenerative problem/osteoarthritis has been remarkably pain free of late. Usually, at this time of the year, that can be particularly painful - well, give me a constant dull aching sensation that can really wear one's spirits down. As things stand, I get just a bit of discomfort there if I over-do things, and also in my right hip, but that is also pretty good, too. Wish I could say the same regarding the ongoing nerve pain that seems to be lingering at the site of the last op! Despite it being nearly six months since that op, and nearly a month since the last chemo cycle, today it has been feeling as if I've an alien rodent attempting to chew its way out from under my oxter! It's a very weird sensation - especially as the surface of the skin there is still numb!

Andrew K Fletcher

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Photographs taken today of Alun's calf varicose vein which is hardly visible after 6 months of Inclined Bed Therapy.
« Last Edit: 20/01/2009 11:42:20 by Andrew K Fletcher »

Andrew K Fletcher

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Note the changes at 10 weeks in Alun's calf varicose vein. We can clearly see some darkened are where the veins are already returning to normal appearance. Also we can see dimples where varicose veins have been returned level with the skin surface. The last photograph we have seen before but it shows the remarkable improvements after 6 months of IBT. Remember no surgery or drugs have been used by Alun, who was advised by his consultant that surgery would be required in order to correct his varicose veins. Remember also that Alun was using a support / compression stocking and no longer needs to wear any compression aid.

He has also worn shorts on the beach with his family for the first time in many years.

I doubt a controlled study will be forthcoming in the foreseeable future and due to reluctance of people testing this theory and not providing us with the evidence we need to provide a convincing argument we are now considering going to the National Newspapers in order to make this known as an alternative treatment to people who face surgery which is proven to be ineffective, risky and definitely not cost effective.

Alun has experience many improvements. One being a severe pain in his knee, that has troubled him since the age of 4. At 34 the pain has largely gone.   

OldDragon

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Showed my legs - the oedema and the veins prone to phelbitis - to my doctor yesterday. He's well impressed.  ;)

Not doing so good in other areas and have to see an orthopaedic consultant because of problems with my left shoulder and arm that seem to be related to the surgery to remove the lymph nodes. Also having ongoing problems relating to the effect of the chemo on my GI tract. That's aggravating the infernal piles... always said those were my worst VVs, Andrew!  ;D


Andrew K Fletcher

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Thank you for your post. Great to get some feedback from a doctor for a change too.
The surgery was inevitably going to cause some problems with aches and pains and chemo’s certainly is not going to help your digestion. Perhaps once your digestive system has chance to recover the piles may have a decent chance of improving too. But yes you did say haemorrhoids was an ongoing problem for you, and it is disappointing that these have not yet began to settle.

On a positive note, we may have another lady joining our study who has varicose veins and has hopefully taken some photographs for us. She has already mentioned that after 1 night on IBT she noticed her veins were less inflated than the previous day.

Andrew


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2008 Dec;18(6):318-24. Epub 2008 Oct 15.
Head-up sleeping improves orthostatic tolerance in patients with syncope.
Cooper VL, Hainsworth R.
Cardiorespiratory Unit, St James's University Hospital, Leeds, UK.
OBJECTIVES: This study was designed to examine the effect of head-up sleeping as a treatment for vasovagal syncope in otherwise healthy patients. Treatment for syncope is difficult. Pharmacological treatments have potential side effects and, although other non-pharmacological treatments such as salt and fluid loading often help, in some cases they may be ineffective or unsuitable. Head-up sleeping may provide an alternative treatment. METHODS: Twelve patients had a diagnosis of vasovagal syncope based both on the history and on early pre-syncope during a test of head-up tilting and graded lower body suction. They then underwent a period of 3-4 months of sleeping with the head-end of their bed raised by 10 degrees , after which orthostatic tolerance (time to pre-syncope during tilt test) was reassessed. RESULTS: Eleven patients (92%) showed a significant improvement in orthostatic tolerance (time to pre-syncope increased by 2 minutes or more). Plasma volume was assessed in eight patients and was found to show a significant increase (P < 0.05, Wilcoxon signed-rank test). There was no significant change in either resting or tilted heart rate or blood pressure after head-up sleeping. INTERPRETATION: Head-up sleeping is a simple, non-pharmacological treatment which is effective in the majority of patients. However, it may not be tolerated by patients or bed-partners long term and whether the effects continue after cessation of treatment remains to be determined.

BenV

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How do you feel about that study Andrew?  Obviously it's good news, but...

It's clearly an indication that someone is looking into inclined beds, despite your earlier claims of it being blocked by the medical community, in fact, there are a number of reports in the same journal on similar ideas.
« Last Edit: 18/02/2009 10:34:37 by BenV »

Andrew K Fletcher

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15 years Ben. Why has it taken so long?

I am delighted with this paper. Though I BT had already proved the point of improved orthostatic intolerance with people who have neurological conditions, including multiple sclerosis and spinal cord injury.

This paper is the first to my knowledge using prolonged inclined bed rest as a model for a study.

I am very excited to say the least. This will indeed open the floodgates for more studies to test the other parameters that have been unlocked by years of independent research. Now we need a study for multiple sclerosis and IBT, then another for spinal cord injury and IBT, and another for Parkinson’s disease and IBT, and another for cerebral palsy and IBT and not forgetting Varicose Veins, Oedema and IBT.

These are simple low cost studies that will earn many students Phd’s But more importantly will improve the lives of people with these conditions.

A great deal more has been happening on the Inclined Bed Therapy Front.

It was blocked Ben. All I needed was a bigger plunger!

BenV

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It was blocked Ben. All I needed was a bigger plunger!

But you had nothing to do with this, and even in a few minutes looking at the same journal I found papers on "head up sleep" going back to 1992.  That's well over your fifteen years.  In all this time, you hadn't done the research to notice that others were researching something similar, yet you have consistently claimed that research on titled beds has been blocked.  You were wrong.

Andrew K Fletcher

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Of course I did Ben

The methods used were often short term and a more accute angle. Lots and lots of papers. The difference with this paper is that it is long term use of inclined bed over 4 months.

The first papers were found at the local hospital database, which I was allowed to use.

Quote
It was blocked Ben. All I needed was a bigger plunger!

But you had nothing to do with this, and even in a few minutes looking at the same journal I found papers on "head up sleep" going back to 1992.  That's well over your fifteen years.  In all this time, you hadn't done the research to notice that others were researching something similar, yet you have consistently claimed that research on titled beds has been blocked.  You were wrong.

Andrew K Fletcher

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I also mentioned the Ancient Egyptians were using IBT over 4 thousand years ago!

BenV

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Of course I did Ben

My apologies Andrew, I didn't realise you had been involved in the study.  In what capacity, may I ask?

Andrew K Fletcher

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My apologies Ben

Of course I did was refering to wading through moutains of research papers of many years and you saying I had failed to spot them :) Sorry for confusion

BenV

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Fair enough! My misunderstanding...

 

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