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Author Topic: Varicose Veins & Oedema Study Inclined Bed Therapy IBT Alternative to Surgery  (Read 219278 times)

snoop40

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thanks for you advice...however i have big veins all over my body especially on my legs arms and neck

snoop40

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my longest vein...i think its very unatractive

Dustine1017

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Are you really a 19-year old? I think that's all because when you are washing your feet even though you are too tired. Are these veins aching? Then, you must go to the doctor to check it up.

RD

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Has anyone on the forum any knowledge of such veins and can shed some light on the subject for Snoop?

Defective heart valve or "hole in heart" may be responsible. Definitely see a doctor.
« Last Edit: 01/10/2009 05:03:59 by RD »

bam

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I did IBT several years ago and it really proved beneficial.  Sleep quality was one of the marked improvements I remember and an overall feeling of being centered and grounded.  I hope that this method gets the necessary recognition as there is definitely a good benefit from it.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2009 03:55:48 by bam »

Andrew K Fletcher

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I did IBT several years ago and it really proved beneficial.  Sleep quality was one of the marked improvements I remember and an overall feeling of being centered and grounded.  I hope that this method gets the necessary recognition as there is definitely a good benefit from it.

Thanks for letting us know about your experience using Inclined Therapy Barn, much appreciated.

bam

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Andrew, I'm glad I found IBT but I have to be honest and admit that I have not been using it.  Its partly laziness but also I feel like I've been getting the benefits in another way .  Around the time that I discovered IBT I also found out how the modern toilet is one of the worst offenders to health known to man.  In a way IBT led me to it while asking in what other ways that I'm not aware of am I misusing/abusing my body.  This led me to look at diet/posture and then I stumbled on this site http://www.naturesplatform.com/health_benefits.html that discusses how the proper way to eliminate is in the squat position and that we are not physically suited to sit while eliminating.  Now it is also interesting to note that the platform that is sold on the site is not a flat platform but the creator has it inclined for people who can't stay balanced due to weight and atrophied leg muscles from lack of use (is there a link with IBT? Vericose Veins?).  Also on this site there is a small reference to the modern toilet as contributing to vericose veins. http://www.toilet-related-ailments.com/history-of-the-pedestal-toilet.html.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2009 17:44:05 by bam »

Andrew K Fletcher

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I too have mentioned many times about the pressure from the good old toilet seat causing constriction on the vessels as the pelvis plus our weight presses down on the skin fat and muscle compressing the vascular network within. This is inevitably going to cause back pressure into the arteries.

A nurse told me that many stroke victims are found on the toilet, she put it down to the onset of a stroke giving an urge to defecate. I suspected that prolonged use of a toilet possibly due to constipation or even sitting on the loo reading a newspaper which is not uncommon could well have caused the rise in arterial BP that triggered the stroke.

The same principle applies or should I say must apply to the flesh and vessels on the soles and heels of our feet when we stand still for long periods. We have all observed the funny videos of the groom or bride standing motionless at a wedding collapsing without any prior warning.

Guards on duty face the same problem and have learned to shift weight by rocking from one foot to the other, this would of course induce a pumping action on the fluid filled tissue and assist circulation rather than standing motionless and compromising the circulation. Not rocket science either just good old common sense.

Turning over in bed while sleeping is certainly an automatic reflex to the constant pressure of sleeping in one position.

Thanks for raising these points and please read the entire thread when you have time as there are impressive reports here from people using Inclined therapy.

Andrew


RD

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A nurse told me that many stroke victims are found on the toilet, she put it down to the onset of a stroke giving an urge to defecate.

Elderly people "do an Elvis" because straining on the toilet is like the Valsalva maneuver which causes their weak heart to stop, (so it's typically heart failure not stroke when people die on the crapper).


["do an Elvis" = Cardio-vascular event at defecation]
« Last Edit: 10/10/2009 09:43:43 by RD »

Andrew K Fletcher

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1399412.stm

This is interesting RD

Your point about the heart and straining is also valid

jpi108

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The study discussed in the BBC article is summarized here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11903123

Read it closely and you'll see that it doesn't compare squatting to sitting for defaecation. So, the conclusion that sitting is less of a stroke risk is not justified. None of the subjects used the sitting position.

It is well known that defaecation itself causes a spike in blood pressure. Every year thousands of people get strokes and heart attacks straining on western toilets. It is also well known that squatting is more natural and reduces straining. That's why diverticulosis is only found in western countries.

I've been waging a practically hopeless campaign to squelch the rumour that squat toilets increase stroke risk. I'm quite sure that the opposite is true.

bam

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Hi jpi, is that for Jonathan Isbit ?  I also believe that squatting reduces strain.  There's likely a higher risk for people who are overweight, have atrophied leg muscles and then also people with long legs as these three categories are going to have a hard time staying balanced in the squat position. The incline on that nature's platform is great but I think that the incline should just be for beginners and the goal should be to eventually be able to squat on a flat surface.  Personally I have found that the best elimination can only occur on a flat surface.  That squatting pressure from flat squatting is essential because just as sitting sort of works then squatting on an incline only works better than sitting but the ideal is on a flat surface where the effort to stay balanced presses the thighs on stomach and promotes the natural peristalsis which is somewhat lost with the incline though incline is better than sitting.  For people who have that risk of high blood pressure and stroke risk I think the ideal way to transition to Full squatting can begin by starting on the toes as in this image,



and then move on to perhaps squatting on an incline as the persons legs get stronger and then full squatting.  You have to realize that when you are eliminating better you are detoxing better and this only improves your blood pressure as your kidney function improves. Hopefully this discussion is not diverting the thread too much, maybe it might need its own thread.
« Last Edit: 13/10/2009 18:03:19 by bam »

Andrew K Fletcher

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The study discussed in the BBC article is summarized here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11903123

I've been waging a practically hopeless campaign to squelch the rumour that squat toilets increase stroke risk. I'm quite sure that the opposite is true.

Squating makes more sense as a means of reducing the compression on vessels which would inevitably cause blood to back up rather than circulating. That said, in the squat position the muscles would be contracted to support the weight of the body and this could indeed cause the vessels to be compressed by the tensed muscles. So not sure now which would be the best method.

alun006

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PICTURE UPDATE AFTER 18 MONTHS ON I.B.T

REF: CALF VEIN - Compare this with the below photo i took tonight - -




THIS PICTURE WAS TAKEN AT 8PM TONIGHT



REF : THIGH VEIN - COMPARE THIS WITH PICTURE BELOW THIS TAKEN 8PM TONIGHT -




 
cheers alun



Maureen

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Hi Alum,

Amazing difference in the before and after pictures! I'm sure you feel good because of the results so far and look forward to even better results down the road.

Maureen

alun006

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Thankyou Maureen

How are you doing ?

Yes, aswell as the vein improvement, i have also almost eradicated my knee pain issue that i have since i was 3 years old.
(I have been up to 6 weeks without a attack, and i used to have this 3 times a week.....) :)

That is great because the pain was horrible, when i had a attack. But the doctors could not explain this even though i had a tendent reduction when i was younger.

The only negative point, is a spider vein ankle flare on my left leg. This has not happened on the right as the pressure is not as near with the vv being higher up.

However this makes sense with the reduction on my calf vein.

But the positives outway the one negative i have experienced.

Thankyou Alun
« Last Edit: 13/12/2009 18:20:06 by alun006 »

Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Maureen

Thank's for your post regarding Alun's improvements in varicose veins. One would think that here among surgeons, scientists, doctors and nurses there would be great interest in these obvious developments. One begins to imagine that there may be considerable vested interests in trying to discredit this important discovery in circulation especially when reading the red text warning which I have only ever seen on my posts.

This is after all a science forum so one would expect that there are many out there repeating this simple experiment to try to disprove me. Yet there is not?

It is not science to say we "The Naked Scientists do not endorse any of Andrew K Fletcher's Physical, Biological or Medical assertions or opinions."

These are clearly not imagined improvements and Alun is a very genuine man with very genuine vascular problems and very genuine vascular improvements.

Now the dilema for anyone reading this thread is whether to trust hundreds of thousands of people working from literature that states you need expensive surgery or to trust a man who advises people to sleep on a tilted bed and watch their veins return to normal without the need for surgery or indeed a surgeon!

You could always wear support stockings and put your legs above the heart, rather impractical IMHO and unendorsable considering it has never reversed a varicose vein.

But to see what tilting a bed can do, you may want to read carefully through the posts from people with multiple sclerosis who have avoided sleeping on flat unscientific beds:

http://www.thisisms.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6755&start=90
http://www.thisisms.com/ftopict-8535.html

Unbiased Independent Research and proud to think outside the box!

Andrew K Fletcher



beachbhoy

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Hello all, I have recently started IBT (within the last few days). I have had varicose veins developing since my late teen years which run in my family and I just happen to have had the worst case. They were never noticable in feeling (although clearly visible) until Oct last year when I started to 'feel'them. Not painful but kind of wierd. I was in the UK at the time so it may have been down to cold weather which my body hadn't really experienced for a while.

Anyway after the unsual internet research and visit to the doctor it was a toss up between a visit to a vascular surgeon who would prescribe 'tights' and offer surgery or IBT and an increase in certain flavanoids in my diet or supplements. Obviously I chose the later. Btw thankyou Andrew for at least investigating some kind of alternative to having them 'stripped' which gives me goosebumps just thinking about it. Having read numerous posts on a variety of websites i'm given great hope that my veins will become managable. At 30 years of age this is not something you expect to be worrying about!

So onto the initial report: After a few days with IBT (our bed is raised by just over 14cm at the head with two blocks in the middle of the bed for support) myself and partner have found the bed doesn't feel much different to normal. We have found it a little more difficult to get to sleep but we're having a heatwave in Australia at the moment which could also be contributing. Obviously I dont expect to see results until weeks after so i'll take pictures and report back. My partner has no health issues but was willing to try IBT just for the general health benefits. Her main concern was that the bed was stable for 'happy times'!

As a foot note I went to a local brick yard where they have a multitude of different sized bricks. The 5 blocks I am using cost around 15dollars. I have a bed which looks like this:
head                                                             feet
    ---------------------------------------------
    ]                                                           [
----                                                             -------
So I had to factor in the larger gap above and add 7cm for the middle blocks. I also used two old shoes to cushion the middle blocks and fill the slight gap. Hope people can understand that! I looked for instructions on what to do with a bed frame like mine but they all referred to ensemble type beds which dont have a gap in the middle like mine.

Thanks again Andrew ill take regular photos and hope for results!
« Last Edit: 20/01/2010 07:49:33 by beachbhoy »

Andrew K Fletcher

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Thanks

Having another person willing to take photographs in the interest of science and document the changes due to IBT is a bonus.

It's also great to know that the red text has not put you off trying it for yourself and like you say, certainly esier to test than surgery.

Google "andrew k fletcher" and ms to see where this therapy is heading.

Look forward to hearing from you again

Andrew

OldDragon

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Just a quick update here, as it's about 18 months now since I commenced IBT. I've had no further incidents of phlebitis since the one mentioned ages ago in this thread, and have not needed to request any steroid anti-inflammatory medication for the spinal flares either.

Last autumn/early winter, I was actually able to walk into a shoe shop and buy a pair of winter boots off the peg that fit both my feet and around my legs, so the oedema improvements have proven consistent and lasting. The swollen veins on the inside of my right knee where I was being troubled by regulart bouts of phlebitis are not visible anymore, either. Will manage to get some photos of those one of these days.

MG

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I have varicose veins on my right leg which  gets bigger with each pregnancy. I am currently pregnant and just over 22 weeks. My varicose veins are getting worse every day.

Iam glad to have found information on IBT and am wondering if it would be advisable to start this while pregnant?

Thanks

Andrew K Fletcher

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I have varicose veins on my right leg which  gets bigger with each pregnancy. I am currently pregnant and just over 22 weeks. My varicose veins are getting worse every day.

Iam glad to have found information on IBT and am wondering if it would be advisable to start this while pregnant?

YES, sleeping flat is a poor cousin to sleeping inclined.

My niece went full term on an inclined bed, couldnt lay down flat due to discomfort and pain.

Andrew

Thanks
« Last Edit: 19/02/2010 00:17:45 by Andrew K Fletcher »

Gragery40

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Really good and exotic informative post,but if a person becomes pro-active about their diet and health can easily return back to a normal lifestyle.Thanks for the recommendation.

frankwest12345

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I tried IBT for six months with no results for varicose veins. It did help with a mildly bad back (no need to do my strecthing exercises) and after two weeks there was a discernible lessening of the vv's but then they came back. In fact, over the winter the veins got worse but this I put down to the very cold weather as they are now back where they started.

I have just increased the bed height to eight inches but this made it difficult to get to sleep but will persist.

I would like to see more experimentation. IBT combined with compression stockings for instance. Inclined bed but with the head at the lower end.

I am going to start taking Serrapeptase which is an enzyme that takes out debris from the blood (and has been used for cleaning out arteries) and has some anecdotal evidence of helping vv. I am hoping that improved blood pumping from IBT combined with this enzyme will do the deed.

I think that there is enough evidence that IBT helps some people with vv but I think it is worth extending the experiment by combining it with other things (if it does not work after a few months).

Andrew K Fletcher

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Sitting posture is very important also. Sitting with knees higher than seat compromises the effects from IBT overnight.

Your comment about the observed lessening of VV proves the therapy works. You then mention the cold weather causes them to bulge out again.

Alun also raised this question and we nailed it down to high humidity in his case.

Could the winter have meant that you spent longer than normal sitting in a chair? And is this chair tilted back so the seat is lower than knees when sitting? Does this chair (could be a car seat) apply pressure to the backs of the thigh muscles above the knees?

Alun also used to wear compression stockings. He no longer needs them. But they could as you say be used to speed up the effects of IBT when worn at night. And I have recommended this for several people who had oedema and it worked well to the point that the oedema vanished completely and the stocking was not longer required.

Now that your veins have returned back to where they were before the winter, have you found you are not sitting as much?

Very interesting post

Thanks

Andrew

Edited to change calf muscle to thigh muscles. My error sorry :)
« Last Edit: 21/03/2010 09:00:16 by Andrew K Fletcher »

 

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