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Author Topic: Varicose Veins & Oedema Study Inclined Bed Therapy IBT Alternative to Surgery  (Read 304744 times)

Offline Karen W.

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Hummm thats odd.. I don't know I have never used one that measures all that stuff!
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Great thanks for providing the stats very useful later. After you tilt your bed we will be able to determine what if anything has changed from sleeping flat.

The asparagus and nettle Tea when combined with IBT should produce some observable changes in oedema.
 

Offline OldDragon

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Karen, I spotted it on offer in the local pharmacy when there yesterday, and so cheap I couldn't resist it. (I am as bad as my grandson for gadgets! Lol )

However, I have asked in the technical forum for more information about how these monitors work and can give accurate readings. Another mystery for the OD to add to the collection. ;)

Time for a nettle tea and a bath, I think, before I land the little collection of printed papers on my doctor's desk this afternoon...

Btw - BP this morning after simply sitting here is: 154/88;

Pulse rate: 86
Respiration: 10
Body fat: 49.8%
Body Water: 35%
Body Muscle: 47.1%
Mid Calf circumference - both now: 40cms.

« Last Edit: 01/07/2008 11:46:43 by OldDragon »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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http://www.psoriasis-help.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18376.50.html





Penny a few years ago in Lanzarote on the right.
Penny used to have a large varicose vein down the inside of her leg. This has now gone flat also.
Note also Pennyís skin to this day remains clear, although on occasions she does get some P on elbows and in the lower back area, but these are temporary flares rather than stubborn psoriasis.

I have just been sent some pretty impressive photographs from another person who is testing IBT for varicose veins. In due course we will have a set of photographs for comparison and then we can identify whether this is working or not.

Andrew K Fletcher
« Last Edit: 01/07/2008 12:25:45 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

Offline OldDragon

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That is all really encouraging, Andrew. :)

Collected my blocks today and my son remembered to turn up to do the bed lifting, so I'm all  ready for kick off now.

Just taken another set of stats for you, which are as follows:

BP this evening when sitting here watching Nadal v Murray match ;D is: 138/82;
Pulse rate: 85
Respiration: 10
Body fat: 49.6%
Body Water: 35.1%
Body Muscle: 47.3%
Mid Calf circumference - both still: 40cms.
Weight: 15 st.

For the record: Today has been very wet here in the valley and my joints have all been aching from arthritis. (Polyarthropathy affects me literally from toes to jaw and all between. Noticably worst in ankles, knees, spine, shoulders, elbows, and wrists today.)

Medication and suppliments taken:
1 x 1 a day cod liver oil and glucosamine capsule.
600mg dispersible aspirin.
1 x 10mg Loratadine (Non-sedating antihistamine to address hayfever/sneezing, as the latter especially can aggravate my back inflamation.)
By the time I go to bed - 2 x cups nettle tea, plus some asparagus with a chicken and rice for evening meal, beef salad roll lunch and cereal/fruit/nuts mix for breakfast with 1% fat skimmed milk.

Exercise today has largely been only stretching and short period of that while using hand-held, low weights - no more than 7lbs per arm.

If you need anything else, Andrew, please let me know.



« Last Edit: 03/07/2008 02:38:50 by OldDragon »
 

Offline alun006

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Andrew

A knee pain that i never got diagnosed properly and am guaranteed to get a visit from at least 2-5 times depending a week, is now behaving differently.

A Specialist doctor looked at this problem when i was 5 years old,growing pains seemed the easiest way to diagnose it, at 6ft 3.5 inches i did grow but stopped several years ago. I am now 33 years old and i am still suffering. A operation was tried several years later but did not work.

I would normally get a slight pain behind the knee, this was a warning that the pain was coming, now i either stopped the pain before it started by taking the pain killers early or i would loose the pain and it would come back very bad the second time.

This pain has been known when not treated to stop me walking properly.

The pain is now only coming on with the first warning signs under the knee, then it is going and not returning as it would do normally, i have also noticed that when i told you that i had a pea shaped swelling that was tender to the touch on my groin creece that was noticed on saturday. (It feels like when you touch under your neck when you have a bad cold.) i was presuming it was a swollen groin gland, is it possible that this might be a sign that my system may be trying to fight this horrible knee pain from coming on, as it is starting and stopping at least 4 times daily at the moment without fully developing.  And i don't have to reach for the pain killers.

Only 2 full attacks this week with this pain.
Alun

I have never experienced this pain to start coming on not flare up fully and not return??????????
I will keep you posted on this interesting development
« Last Edit: 02/07/2008 21:50:03 by alun006 »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Alun thank you for posting these photographs. They offer much encouragement for others to join this important study but they also offer some serious problems for current physiology literature, which does not and cannot relate to how gravity can change pressures inside the veins! In fact the common advice is for people to sleep with their legs up above the heart and this has never been shown to offer any permanent relief from varicose veins or oedema.

Prediction: All good theories can offer sound clear repeatable results. I have been repeating these same experiments since 1994 and producing predictable repeatable results. But alas these can be easily ignored, and have been ignored by too many.
 
To prove this point again, I made another identical prediction in the very title of this thread as a challenge for nursesí doctors, scientists and surgeons to test my theory and come back to us and relay their findings. Once again and sadly none were forthcoming so presumably this challenge has also fallen on deaf ears.

Alanís results so far look pretty conclusive for a mere 7 days of Inclined Bed Therapy out of the 4 weeks of IBT that were advised in order to show substantial improvements.

My research has taken me on a long learning curve as to how best to go about showing the importance of gravity to people who should sit up and take notice in order to save lives from unnecessary and dangerous procedures that expose people to lethal infectious diseases, blocked and collapsed veins, circulation failure, stroke, heart failure and with little chance of providing permanent remedial results frequently leading to more repeat surgery.

In this thread I have stated that we have to address the cause of varicose veins which is a pressure difference between the vein and the surrounding muscle and skin tissue. When the pressure is higher inside the vein or lymph system fluid leeches out causing the limb to swell. Inclined bed therapy (IBT) addresses this by recognising how solutes alter pressure inside vessels when they are moved by gravity in the direction they are supposed to move and it is the solutes that provide the reduced swelling in varicose veins by altering the pressure in the arteries and increasing the tension in the blood inside the veins and when the pressure inside the veins and lymph system change favourably to the surrounding tissue pressure we see a migration of oedema back into the veins, through the arteries where the solutes and the excess fluid is excreted in the urine.

Did Alunís feet swell up as a result of IBT? Apparently not according to the photographic evidence!

Andrew K Fletcher
« Last Edit: 02/07/2008 21:59:52 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

Offline OldDragon

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First night sleeping on the inclined bed, there was no noticeable increase in the oedema in my ankles, Andrew, but the biggest change I noticed was that I woke actually feeling as if I'd had some measure of restorative sleep. That must be the first time in months that has happened to me. Could be coincidence, of course, but...?

There was also less aching from the arthritis in my feet, ankles and knees, despite the weather still being wet. I felt well energised all day. Too well, perhaps, as still wide awake at four the next morning, when I needed to up early for a hospital appointment by 7.30am. ::)

Second night of IBT was therefore a short one, and was woken before naturally ready to wake, so not aware of feeling well-rested. Still no ankle swelling to report, but it does seem that either two lots of different hospital scales or the ones at the local chemist's must be wrong, as they weighed me today at a different hospital and 14st! A couple of days ago I was 15st on the chemist's scales, and 15st 2lbs on those just before. ::) Will be glad when the right sized batteries for my own scales are in stock in town. I might then have a better idea of where I am at weight-wise and whether it is 4st or 5st I need to shed! Could be the weight gain was only 2lbs afterall and has been lost with the reduction of the oedema? There is still a bit of that present, and my calves are back up to 41cms, but the varicose veins on the right leg are becoming more visible now the swelling is reducing.
« Last Edit: 04/07/2008 17:28:25 by OldDragon »
 

Offline OldDragon

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My stats taken this morning - 3rd day of IBT:

BP 137/87
Pluse:75;
Body Fat: 49.6%;
Body Water: 35.1%;
Body Muscle: 47.3%;
Respiration 10 per min.
Calves: Left 40cms; Right: 41cms

I woke today feeling refreshed again, and naturally, after about 6 hours sleep. This is an unfamiliar feeling for me because, having FM, I normally feel as if I've not had enough sleep.

The aching in my ankles and knees has definitely reduced, but my lower spine (L4 - S1) where there is currently noticable acitivity relating to degenerative disc disease (as shown by scan) that pre-existed IBT, the aching is still present. The aching in my shoulders, wrists and elbows seems to have lessenned. (Weather here is still damp and overcast.)

Have taken the usual daily cod liver oil and glucosamine capsule, plus two aspirins today as anti-inflammatory.
« Last Edit: 05/07/2008 12:38:00 by OldDragon »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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A lady on another forum asked a question about people standing for prolonged periods having problems with varicose veins and oedema. So I have included my reply to her because many people will be wondering about how this applies to the IBT Theory.

I think there is some merit in standing for prolonged periods of time causing veins to swell but it may not be as obvious why this is happening and is often attributed to pooling of blood.

But we have a circular system, so if blood is pooling around the lower limbs something must be restricting the flow through the veins and causing back pressure.

Could this be the pressure on the tissue surrounding the veins in the feet, caused by the weight of a person standing in one position for too long? If this were the case, then the circulation might be compromised further and cause a person to collapse? Weddings, where a groom or bride stand motionless for longer than usual sometimes succumb to this and have been featured on short videos on TV. Guards standing to attention have learned to move their weight from one foot to another to avoid collapsing on duty. Again simply moving the weight like this would suffice to relieve the pressure and allow the system to function better.

Another point is that when a person has been on their feet all day they like nothing better than coming home to put their feet up, especially when the literature advises them that this is the best thing to do.

A giraffe for example stands on its feet and seldom lies down at all. One would thing with its massive height and impressive circulation it too would have varicose veins, yet it does not. NASA in fact are studying the animal to try to understand why it does not have problems with bulging veins. In the Giraffes leg the veins are closer to the bone than in humans and therefore have more muscle and tissue to hold in the pressure (It Is Thought by the NASA Scientists) Yet they still have to solve how those veins develop closer to the bones in the Giraffe. Could it be that the pressure inside the veins does not increase as predicted by the animalís height? Indeed this appears to be the case. So if the pressure is much lower in the veins than the surrounding muscle and tissue the veins will not bulge and oedema will not form. But more to the point the pressure inside the muscles and skin will be higher than the vein and this should be able to explain why the veins remain closer to the animals bones while the animal grows to adult size. An analogy of this is a bench I once saw secured to a tree for many years. The tree had grown around the bench and a huge portion of it was inside the tree completely engulfed by the trees production line of tiny tubes we see as the grain in timber.   

I have added pictures from Old Dragon in one of my posts next to her original photographs for ease of comparison. These now photographs taken 5 days after Inclined Bed Therapy Began show a definite relief in skin tightness resulting from a migration of fluid from the affected limbs back into the main circulation as predicted.

Old Dragonís Doctor predicted a significant increase in swelling which clearly has not occurred! 
 

Offline OldDragon

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Here are some stats for you, Andrew, taken this morning after 6 days/nights of IBT.

BP: 133/77
Pluse: 81
Body Fat: 49.7%;
Body Water: 35%;
Body Muscle: 47.2%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 40cms; Right: 41cms.
Weight: 14st. 12.8lbs (Stripped and taken using my own scales.)
BMI (Body mass index): 33.3.
Hours sleep previous night: 5 - woke naturally feeling refreshed again.
Pain level/location/s: Low grade, dull ache L4 - S1 region of spine. Low grade ache both feet/ankles. (All areas known to be affected by OA/previous injuries.)
Medication taken: 1 soluable aspirin. (Reducing to 1 per day from average of two every other day as experiment.)
Suppliments: 1 x 1 a day cod liver oil & glucosamine capsule. 1 x milk thistle capsule, 1 x cup nettle tea.

Weather: Damp & overcast but trying to brighten.

« Last Edit: 08/07/2008 12:07:33 by OldDragon »
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Alun's photo after two weeks of IBT. Note the veins are fading from the top first. And they are becoming thinner as a result of avoiding a flat bed.

Link to High res photograph:
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_K_Fletcher/Varicose%20veins/all-in-one-2week-vein-photos2.jpg
« Last Edit: 09/07/2008 12:05:55 by Andrew K Fletcher »
 

Offline OldDragon

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Those photos are really impressive, Alun. I've tried to take mine out on the back yard and when the flash on the camera doesn't kick in. It's been a case of trying to get the shots myself between showers, hence the odd angles. Lol

Anyway, after the first full week of IBT, here at the latest stats:

BP: 127/76
Pluse: 78
Body Fat: 49.7%;
Body Water: 35%;
Body Muscle: 47.2%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 39.5cms; Right: 39.5cms.
Weight: 14st. 11.2lbs (Stripped and taken using my own scales.)
BMI (Body mass index): 33.3.
Hours sleep previous night: 5 - woke naturally feeling refreshed again.
Pain level/location/s: Low grade, dull ache L4 - S1 region of spine.

Medication taken so far today: 1 soluable aspirin. (Having reduced to 1 per day from average of two every other day as experiment.)
Suppliments: 1 x 1 a day cod liver oil & glucosamine capsule. 1 x milk thistle capsule, 1 x cup nettle tea.

Weather in the valley: Very WET!
 

Offline OldDragon

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No problem, Alun, your points are very valid and useful. Which reminds me, Andrew wanted some photos of my finger & toe nails - if it ever stops raining, I'll try and get those. Lol (Now where did I put that manicure set someone once bought me a dozen Christmasses or more ago... ;)
 

Offline Carolyn

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Andrew - My Dad, as of today, is home from the hospital after having a heart attack and triple bypass surgery and having his aortic heart valve replaced.  I've been telling my mother about the Inclined Bed Therapy and she wants to give it a try. 

I'm curious to know whether there are any conditions where IBT would be considered unsafe.

He's still very weak and is on oxygen.  His feet are also quite swollen tonight, but he's also been up moving around probably more than he should have.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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HI Carolyn. Your father should be fine on IBT. Torbay Hospital now advise heart patients to put their beds on an angle.

It should improve his breathing and increase the amount of oxygen in the blood and also remove the oedema from his legs over a few weeks. It will slow down his heart rate by 10 to 12 beats per minute and his respiration by 4-5 breaths per minute compared to sleeping flat. This is due I think to a steady stronger heart beat emerging that empties the heart properly and this takes a little longer than a shallow beat. Same applies to the lungs, they appear to inflate and deflate more effectively on Inclined Bed Therapy again this takes a little longer than shallow breathing.

Circulation definately improves and can be observed with skin colour changes in hands and feet and also a warmer skin to touch confirms improvements in circulation. It has also been confirmed by a nurse at Derriford Hospital recovery room electronically.

RE unsafe: There may be a problem getting in and out of the bed for people that are very frail and unsteady on their feet to begin with so careful supervision is required during transfer from a wheel chair to the bed and the reverse.

Also where a collapsed vein is suspected, p[osibly due to varicose vein surgery then the affected limb may show signs of poorer circulation due to the lack of pressure to keep the collapsed vein open.

This is why I have asked for people who have not had surgery to come forward so that we can avoid this problem albeit very rare. I have only heard of one case where IBT has decreased circulation to a limb with a collapsed vein.

Important to avoid the feet pressing on a footboard as constant pressure during the night could comprimise circulation in the toes and feet as the bones apply pressure on the tissue against a foot board. So make sure he does not slide down to the bottom of a bed with a footboard.

A prediction for your Father using IBT.

Metal heart valves can be heard and almost always have audible fibrilation and often miss beats during flat bed rest.

Sometimes a blue tone in the skin appears on the lips, fingers, toes and nose indicating poor circulation following these implants.

All of which will resolve on inclined bed therapy in 4 weeks.

So if you could confirm your fathers current observations following surgery re his heart rate blood pressure,respiration rate, weight etc and share them with us we should be able to see marked changes if he were to test this theory.

Andrew 


Andrew - My Dad, as of today, is home from the hospital after having a heart attack and triple bypass surgery and having his aortic heart valve replaced.  I've been telling my mother about the Inclined Bed Therapy and she wants to give it a try. 

I'm curious to know whether there are any conditions where IBT would be considered unsafe.

He's still very weak and is on oxygen.  His feet are also quite swollen tonight, but he's also been up moving around probably more than he should have.
 

Offline OldDragon

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Carolyn, I do hope that your father feels better very soon. My mother had a quadruple by-pass and valve replacements some years ago, and made a marvellous recovery.

These are some of the things that I have observed during the 8 nights Ive now been sleeping on an inclined bed.

During 7 of the 8 nights, I have slept for at least 4 - 5 hours and woken naturally feeling REFRESHED by the sleep! That is a big change for me, as I often struggle to sleep at all and for days at a time and, having fibromyalgia, almost always wake feeling as if I've not slept at all. I actually feel as if I have some energy for a change... and that's a bit of a novelty for me!

The small, bobbly blue veins in my right ankle that resulted after a riding accident when I was 16 have disappeared!

The oedema in my legs/calves has reduced by up to 5.5cms and my legs have not been swelling during the day.

Tenderness in the area of my varicose veins has reduced considerably, and I have even risked kneeling down to do things a couple of times and with no problem at all. (In the past this action has usually resulted in a bout of phlebitis.)

The pain and inflammation, plus the fibro related 'hot spots' in my upper back (thoracic and lower cervical vertebrae) and shoulders has not affected me. (Immediately prior to the trial, I felt as if the area had been scalded and could hardly bear even a light T-shirt on that.)

The arthritic pain in my feet, ankles and knees has disappeared!

The low grade aching in my lumbar spine - L4 - S1 - appears to be reducing slightly now. (And an x-ray taken of that very recently showed considerable osteo arthritic activity and evidence of degenerative disc disease.)

My blood pressure has been steadily reducing - similarly my pulse rate and respiration.

I have lost a little over 3lbs in weight, and without any particular changes to my diet! (Which is a reasonably healthy eating plan, with a few naughty indulgences here and there. )

So far, I've not noticed any negatives. Even the dogs haven't complained about the change to the angle of their sleeping arrangements.

Would I go back to sleeping on a horizontal bed...? Not if I can help it! 
 

Offline OldDragon

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I think I over-did things yesterday and my lower back has really kicked off again today, and despite about 6 hours sleep last night. I know that you mentioned the back ache could get worse temporarily, but hard to say if it's as you predicted or because I pushed myself yesterday. Either way, have dug out an old back support today to see if that will help a bit. Have a fair bit of work/listing to get done today. Not done stats, as it's proven impossible to sit quietly even for 20 minutes without interruptions.
 

Offline alun006

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Old Dragon

I hope you feel better soon, sounds like you are having a hard day.

I know your health probs, can not be compared to mine.  But you may find that improvement happens quiet quickly at first, but then is not noticed as much for sometime many days after.

This is when you can get abit down and feel that was it working aswell as you thought.

I have went through spouts of feeling up then down, i think it can be quiet emotional at times. analysing everything that happens.

Hope you get well enough to carry on with the incline.

Regards Alun



 

Offline OldDragon

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Cheers, Alun, although I'm not considering stopping the IBT at all. Certainly not because of an aching lower back. I've lived with that problem for many years and am hoping that, long term, the IBT will benefit it.  ;D

Having a busy, rather than hard day, and have just walked down and back to see to the horses, and to try and get a bit of fresh air and exercise. Could have taken the car but trying to keep up with some simple exercise ideas, aching back or not. ;) Lol I'd probably be more likely to get annoyed with myself than feel down if I didn't. :)

One thing I didn't mention before, is that my haemorrhoids have been behaving really well since inclining the bed. ;D

I find it really interesting analysing the things that happen. The difference in your photos is quite amazing, and my mother has a varicose vein in a similar position to you, and has asked me to print off details from this thread now and show her your photos. She's going to incline her bed and keep us updated via my brother on her progress. Besides the veins and oedema, she also has an ulcer that has been troubling her for a long time and has been infected with MRSA, too.
 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Sorry Alun I was advised of this over the telephone during a pilot study invloving spinal cord injury. It was an observation made by a lady who noticed her foot became blue when inclined and later confirmed she had an ongoing problem with a collapsed vein caused by varicose vein surgery.



Andrew

Could you give me any more information on the relationship with a callapsed veins and surgery, was interested to see this mentioned in the above thread.

Are patients that have had surgery for varicose veins, more prone to this even many years after as well ?

I know that if a patient has had surgery once on a vv, that the procedure is more involved next time, if it is not successful.

alun

P.S  I hope Carolyn's father gets better soon.


 

Offline OldDragon

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Just to give you the promised stats and after the 12th night of IBT...

BP 109/79
Pluse:71;
Body Fat: 49.8%;
Body Water: 35.1%;
Body Muscle: 47.2%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 41cms; Right: 41cms.
Weight: 14st 12lbs. (Can't believe I've gained a little, and after all that exercise yesterday! :( Will have to pretend it's muscle, even if the other stats don't agree!

No changes in medication/suppliments.

 

Offline Karen W.

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Hey Al.. I could not find one of those gadgets at the pharmacy any other ideas..?

How are you feeling today? I hope you are ok... I was thinking of you in the night and was a bit troubled in my thoughts.. did you not sleep well or over do it a bit yesterday?

I hope you feel well today and have a great day!
 

Offline OldDragon

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I'll try and find out if that pharmacy have a website and can supply to the USA when I take the post up the road later, Karen.

Yes, I did over do things a bit, as expected, but actually went to bed quite early for me and slept well, and for a bit longer than usual, too. My back and right hip ache today, but not too badly. ;)

 

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Al Your Stats are looking very interesting and Following the same pattern that Karen reported when she tilted her bed. Many others have also reported the blood pressure reductions. Your pulse is also fining a lower rest rate.

I noticed on your start photographs that you wear some kind of stocking that leaves a visible pressure mark in your skin. Try not wearing these types of socks and if you do need to wear them cut the elastic at the top. This should help move the fluid faster.
 

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