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Author Topic: Varicose Veins & Oedema Study Inclined Bed Therapy IBT Alternative to Surgery  (Read 211161 times)

Andrew K Fletcher

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Sorry Alun I was advised of this over the telephone during a pilot study invloving spinal cord injury. It was an observation made by a lady who noticed her foot became blue when inclined and later confirmed she had an ongoing problem with a collapsed vein caused by varicose vein surgery.



Andrew

Could you give me any more information on the relationship with a callapsed veins and surgery, was interested to see this mentioned in the above thread.

Are patients that have had surgery for varicose veins, more prone to this even many years after as well ?

I know that if a patient has had surgery once on a vv, that the procedure is more involved next time, if it is not successful.

alun

P.S  I hope Carolyn's father gets better soon.



OldDragon

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Just to give you the promised stats and after the 12th night of IBT...

BP 109/79
Pluse:71;
Body Fat: 49.8%;
Body Water: 35.1%;
Body Muscle: 47.2%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 41cms; Right: 41cms.
Weight: 14st 12lbs. (Can't believe I've gained a little, and after all that exercise yesterday! :( Will have to pretend it's muscle, even if the other stats don't agree!

No changes in medication/suppliments.


Karen W.

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Hey Al.. I could not find one of those gadgets at the pharmacy any other ideas..?

How are you feeling today? I hope you are ok... I was thinking of you in the night and was a bit troubled in my thoughts.. did you not sleep well or over do it a bit yesterday?

I hope you feel well today and have a great day!

OldDragon

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I'll try and find out if that pharmacy have a website and can supply to the USA when I take the post up the road later, Karen.

Yes, I did over do things a bit, as expected, but actually went to bed quite early for me and slept well, and for a bit longer than usual, too. My back and right hip ache today, but not too badly. ;)


Andrew K Fletcher

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Al Your Stats are looking very interesting and Following the same pattern that Karen reported when she tilted her bed. Many others have also reported the blood pressure reductions. Your pulse is also fining a lower rest rate.

I noticed on your start photographs that you wear some kind of stocking that leaves a visible pressure mark in your skin. Try not wearing these types of socks and if you do need to wear them cut the elastic at the top. This should help move the fluid faster.

Carolyn

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Dad's bed has been inclined now for 3 days.  The swelling has almost disappeared in his feet, his face is starting to turn back to it's normal shade and he's not using the oxygen nearly as much. 

I had planned on inclining my bed when I get home from Georgia in the hopes that it may help with the pain of the Fibromyalgia and possibly will help hubby's night leg pains, but after looking at mom and dad's bed, I'm not so sure hubby's going to go for it.  The feet of their bed was already 6 inches off the the ground and then we raised it another 6 inches.  That's a pretty steep incline....erhm...I would think that would make sex a little difficult!

OldDragon

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Andrew, me and socks are a saga! Lol Pet hate is the ones that slide off into my wellies or boots, and I detest cold feet. Finding the balance between ones that stay up without too much pressure and yet don't end up in my boots is a mission impossible, I believe. Going to remove the elastic from my track suit bottoms, though.

Carolyn, I have it on good authority (from my goddaughter) that inclining the bed 6" at the head end seems to give her husband extra 'energy' in that department! ;) Mind you, they have been known to raise the height of the kitchen table and experiment...  ::) Whatever, she has told me that the bed they bought recently, and inclined, has brought a whole new dimension to their love life, even though they've retained their old waterbed, too! The elderly uncle who lives with them is talking about needing a holiday so that he can get some undisturbed sleep... ;)

alun006

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Hi Andrew

The incline bed therapy is going great at the moment, knee pain that i had for a long time is not requiring pain killers, only needed them once last week.  i normally take them approx 4-5 times a week especially when the hay fever season is here, as that normally sets it off.

My varicose veins are not giving me any probs, and now do not require the leg socks for support.

I have just took some pictures of my thigh again, and i will be adding them soon.

The only side effect i have had, is the swollen gland that that i have on the right side, between my groin in the crease that is where my thigh starts,( in the middle).

It has not increased in size, but a doctor who is getting some feedback from me on the phone tomorrow said i could ask him any questions about that then. (i may need to go in to verify it maybe)

The biggest vv is on the right side and also my body is fighting off the knee pains that i normally have more on that knee, aswell as having hay fever.  It sort of makes sense that my gland would be swollen when trying to deal with such a change in the body.

I am also experiencing the first signs of my knee pain sometimes, then it just goes.  When this has happened in the past it would come back worse, but this is not happening.

What do you think?

alun 

OldDragon

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I'm find it really interesting reading your posts and progress, Alun. Like you, I too have hayfever, but it's a few days now since I've felt the need to take antihistamines, despite the pollen count rising.

Today my stats are:

BP 113/81
Pulse:71;
Body Fat: 49.7%;
Body Water: 35.1%;
Body Muscle: 47.3%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 40cms; Right: 40cms.
Weight: 14st 11.4lbs.

No changes in suppliments.
No aspirin taken today.

Minimal, low grade aching L4 - S1 spinal region.


« Last Edit: 15/07/2008 17:52:26 by OldDragon »

alun006

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Hi Andrew /Members

New photos to show

1st pic after 2 weeks on ibt
2nd pic after 3 weeks on ibt

Whot do you think.......

My knee pain is getting better aswell, only 1 attack last week.

Alun

And My son got top marks in his sats yesterday!!!!!!! :D

Are my legs getting sexier   lol ::)



Direct Linkhttp://i321.photobucket.com/albums/nn365/alun006/all-in-one-2-to-3-week-ibt.jpg
« Last Edit: 16/07/2008 08:42:49 by alun006 »

OldDragon

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Well done, to your son, Alun. :)

I don't know about your legs getting sexier, but that vein certainly looks to be reducing steadily.  ;D

My GP and the consultant at the cancer hospital are both showing an interest in the changes I've been noticing since commencing the IBT. I'm hoping that, by the time I next see the GP my veins and oedema will really leap out at him by their lack of presence. ;D

Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Carolyn
Thank you for posting this report on your dad's progress using Inclined Bed Therapy. I am currently corresponding with 10 Downing Street, My M.P Adrian Sanders and the National Health Service in a bid to have this study mirrored in a controlled environment.
I hope that some of them are taking on board what is happening here.

You may find that IBT has an aphrodisiac affect too if you get my drift. Furthermore my wife and I can personally testify to having a healthy active sex life sleeping on an incline.

Fibromialgia should respond well to IBT

Dad's bed has been inclined now for 3 days.  The swelling has almost disappeared in his feet, his face is starting to turn back to it's normal shade and he's not using the oxygen nearly as much. 

I had planned on inclining my bed when I get home from Georgia in the hopes that it may help with the pain of the Fibromyalgia and possibly will help hubby's night leg pains, but after looking at mom and dad's bed, I'm not so sure hubby's going to go for it.  The feet of their bed was already 6 inches off the the ground and then we raised it another 6 inches.  That's a pretty steep incline....erhm...I would think that would make sex a little difficult!

OldDragon

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While in the bath last night, I had the chance to really look at those varicose veins - both the three little knobbly ones on the left leg and the longer one below my right knee. There are three distinct little depressions now over the ones on the left, and a depressed channel over the one on the right! My camera seems to be broken, else I'd have taken more photos. The shape of my left leg seems to have altered considerably, too.

Not done stats, as I'm full of a cold and chest infection, so feeling really crappy at the moment. However, so far, the coughing and sneezing hasn't caused my back to pop out of place in the thoracic region, which usually happens and then triggers the muscle spasms. The pains in my lumber spine seem to be easing off now, too.

Karen W.

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I am sure sorry you are so sick right now.. sending good thoughts and lots of hugs.. feel better soon!

Glad your back has not spasmed either sounds like the incline is working wonders!

oldbiker1

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I started IBT about six weeks ago - was painting my bed base and didn't want to set it on the carpet, so I put a couple 3" blocks under the head.  Went to bed that night and forgot the blocks were there. When I slept all night without getting up for the toilet runs, I wondered why - woke up at 5:30 AM and couldn't believe that I had slept straight through - haven't done that for about 30 years.

So, I did some research on the Internet and found Andrew Fletcher's information.  So, I am now a "convert" -- currently at 4 inches, on the way up to 6" eventually.  Main benefits - sleeping soundly all night; no coughing at night anymore; only get up once and the varicose veins are disappearing. They weren't bad, but, at 68, I did have some minor issues in that department. But, they are disappearing gradually. My wife has had varicose vein problems for years, so I'm watching to see what happens with her.  She recently had some "work" done, so they were subsiding as a result of that, but I'll be watching to see if they stay away.

My son has sleep apnea problems and he just started (at 3") -- some improvement the first night -- will monitor that closely.

all for now...

oldbiker1
Escondido, California

alun006

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Hi Members

Glad to see so many people gaining from the inclined bed therapy.

When i first started the inclined bed therapy (a month tomorrow), andrew mentioned the fact you could get further benefit if needed it through the day when using a certain type of rest for your legs. This type of resting had to be placed below the knee, so that the knee is higher than the foot when resting.

So i had to mention a rest that i am using that gives me a boost during the day and you can place it under tables and when you are watching TV, or on the computer etc.

I just had to tell all of you, as i think it is a great way of using this type of rest, and it feels great.

I am using a bean bag that is scrupled into a ball then, i sit slightly stretched out and place my feet in the middle, not only does it feel great, it keeps your feet warm.

This method it also easier to place under tables as well.

It has even stopped my knee pains coming on, when they have been starting.

Hope andrew approoves of this method

alun ;D




Andrew K Fletcher

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Sitting with your seat higher than your knees so there is a gentle slope down to your feet will give maximum benefits. Placing a pillow under the knee is suggested by the medical profession not myself.

In my opinion it will serve to slow down circulation and increase backpressure causing a blow out in the veins above the knee and may be responsible for the bulge in your groin area. I have posted a link to a video about blowouts (bulges) on the first page of this thread for you and others Alun.


Hi Members

Glad to see so many people gaining from the inclined bed therapy.

When i first started the inclined bed therapy (a month tomorrow), andrew mentioned the fact you could get further benefit if needed it through the day when using a certain type of rest for your legs. This type of resting had to be placed below the knee, so that the knee is higher than the foot when resting.

So i had to mention a rest that i am using that gives me a boost during the day and you can place it under tables and when you are watching TV, or on the computer etc.

I just had to tell all of you, as i think it is a great way of using this type of rest, and it feels great.

I am using a bean bag that is scrupled into a ball then, i sit slightly stretched out and place my feet in the middle, not only does it feel great, it keeps your feet warm.

This method it also easier to place under tables as well.

It has even stopped my knee pains coming on, when they have been starting.

Hope andrew approoves of this method

alun ;D





alun006

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Hi Andrew

I did do the test that we discussed as seen on the video you posted, and it is a blowout.

I am glad that mystery has been verified, i had it in my head that it was a swollen gland.

Anyway, 1 month into ibt and things are looking very incouraging.

knee pains needed pain killers 4 times
(This has never happened as few times, especially in hay fever season.)
Noticeable changes in the look and feel of varicose veins, as well as no aching from them.  and i am still not wearing the support sock that i have always relied on.

I am still keeping a diary, and the pictures going.  So that i have a full record of everything that happens.

Please have a look at my pictures below showing the first months results on the right thigh.

Thankyou alun ;D

My experience has been that, when volunteers are doing the incline bed therapy, for the first week they should take into account that the vein sometimes has a bigger reaction in the first week, before settling down to a constant improvement. Don't be put off by the fact that you might have a period of minor change at this point, and be discouraged about carrying on with it. I have found that the width and the feel has also been a big part of the improvement, and this can someimes be very hard to document on a photo.



Andrew K Fletcher

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The first opening sentence of this thread is why do varicose veins shrink after only 4 weeks of inclined bed therapy?

I waited many months for an answer and continually refreshed the thread to give ample time for an answer. Yet in a physiology and medical thread read by many working in the industry no answer was forthcoming and more disturbing was that no attempt was made as far as I am aware to put my words to the test by people involved in the care of patients. Eventually Alun and Alison both unqualified in medicine decided to put my question to the test. And both have reported significant improvements. Alun has provided us with some photographic and supporting text accounts of his own observations and we can clearly see a substantial gradual improvement in his varicose veins as predicted would be the case based on pilot study results. Alison has provided us with some evidence of changes in her oedema and varicose veins but Alison has also provided us with some important stats showing a huge improvement in blood pressure. Karen also provided us with statistics on another thread showing the same pattern in blood pressure changes. And Old Biker has provided us with an account of what is happening to himself as a result of accidentally inclining his own bed.

Every theory that holds true must be based on sound uncompromising science We test and retest to make sure that the theory is sound. We make a prediction and produce results to verify the prediction is either false or true. Then we test again and again and only when we are certain that there is no room for doubt we go public and make a challenge against the existing literature to bring forward an answer to what clearly goes against itís acceptance and validity.

This study is on target to do justice to scientific method by invalidating erroneous Literature that is in need of urgent revision. But not because we are trying to prove a theory is correct or indeed is incorrect but because too many patients are suffering avoidable long term medical problems that frequently result in the loss of a limb or risk of infectious diseases from hospitalisation and in some cases even death. Surgical procedures are moving towards closing veins using ablation or foam injection or stripping veins, which have one thing in common. None of them address what causes the veins to bulge in the first place and so are destined to failure with more bulges and blow outs occurring elsewhere in the body as the same pressure that caused the first bulges in the veins will inevitably find a weak vessel and cause it to expend also.

Erroneous assumptions.
1.   The heart is solely responsible for pumping blood around the body.
2.   Raising your legs above the heart helps to resolve varicose veins.
3.   Raising your legs above or level with the heart helps to resolve oedema.
4.   Sleeping horizontal or flat has never been scientifically tested to see if it is ideally suited to human physiology. However it has been tested by NASA et al who have used it as a model to show significant degenerative affects on the body. They have done so to try to understand why reduced gravity in astronauts during space flight has such a profound degenerative affect on the human body.
5.   Sleeping flat assists recovery when we are ill, when all the evidence suggests this may not be the case. Ironic when the health industry relies entirely on flat beds for patients.
6.   Sleeping on an inclined bed will cause blood to pool in the ankles and feet. It does not!
7.   Sleeping on an inclined bed will cause oedema to develop. The opposite occurs and long-standing problems with oedema are resolved.
8.   Sleeping on an inclined bed causes circulation to slow down. It does the opposite and significantly increases circulation indicated by warmer hands and feet in bed and the development of a healthier pink skin indicating more oxygen is delivered to the body.
9.   Sleeping on an Inclined bed puts strain on the heart. It does nothing of the kind and slows down the Heart Rate by developing a cleaner stronger beat. Fibrillation is resolved and even in the case of a metal valve being used which is known to always cause fibrillation there is no fibrillation once the person with the metal valve has been introduced IBT. Furthermore it is not uncommon for the heart in such cases to miss beats during flat bed-rest. Again resolved by IBT. And last but not least A person with significant cyanosis- A bluish discoloration of the skin and mucous membranes resulting from inadequate oxygenation of the blood on the nose lips, fingers and toes should find they return to normal healthy colour, again indicating that circulation is improved on an inclined bed. Which does not sit well with current physiology literature.
10.   We know that thrombosis may develop when a patient is confined to a flat bed for too long. This is well understood and warfarin, aspirin and other drugs are administered in hospitals to help prevent this. Yet when Inclined Bed Therapy is adopted for a person with a visible Deep Vein Thrombosis, it resolves without medication and the hardened area in the calf vanishes. This happens because the circulation speeds up and like a fast flowing river the river bank is eroded, unlike a slow flowing river which allows sediment and debris to settle on the river bed.
11.   In the literature, there is no clear understanding of how lymphatic flow and cerebral spinal fluid flow occur in the body any more than there is a clear understanding of how trees lift water from the root to the leaf without a pump sometimes in excess of four thousand litres a day. We know it is not the heart that is involved with these non-pumped systems and we do know that posture and respiration are definitely involved. So why do we still adhere to a flat bed as a means to assist patients with neurological and lymph problems?
12.   Is it safe to place a baby in a horizontal position, I.E. on a flat bed? Is it a coincidence that the baby cries to be picked up when laying down flat and stops crying when in the arms of another human? It is believed that this is because it craves to be close to its mother. Yet the very act of cradling a baby in our arms produces an inclined posture, which relaxes the baby. Could the baby be trying to communicate with us to let us know how stupid we are by placing our babies flat? Could placing a baby flat compromise its circulation and could placing a baby flat be one of the reasons for cot / crib deaths?

The financial cost of surgery for varicose veins is: More than 50,000 varicose vein operations are carried out in England and Wales every year at a cost of between £400m and £600m
Private Health Care Costs: Varicose vein surgery on both legs will cost in the region of £2,100 to £3,000 inclusive of private hospital charges and consultantís fees.Laser ablation treatment  will cost in the region of £2,000 to £2,500 one/two legs inclusive of private hospital charges and consultant fees.


Andrew K Fletcher
« Last Edit: 25/07/2008 09:26:47 by Andrew K Fletcher »

Interest in the Temple!

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Hi Andrew

I spent yesterday and this morning researching IBT and have found both the results and thinking behind it very interesting. Last night I slept at a 4" incline and plan to increase this over the coming weeks.

My partner suffers from varicose veins and has done so for about 7 years and I will photograph and monitor her development.

I personally suffer from lower back pain, which I have almost come to accept over the past 2 years - at the age of 26! This is obviously frustrating and I can clearly see the medical profession has not been the most respectful to your theories, which is pretty disgusting.

Having read and seen examples of were varicose veins have been reduced due to a gradual reduction in blood pressure in the veins. If this is the case, will this also work for facial redness? I suffer from thread veins on my face and as you have noted with vascular surgery for varicose veins, surgery is painful, expensive and short term. Can I expect any improvement in this with IBT?

Anyway, good luck in your research and I will post photos of any improvements me and my partner experience.

Peace and love.

Aidan

Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Aidan

Thank you for taking the time to investigate the theory behind IBT. And thank you both for testing my theory and providing us with your own observations. Make sure you both drink more water as IBT does have a slight diuretic effect as toxins are excreted more effectively due to the incline.

RE Thread veins on the face. Some reports of improvements in thread veins have indicated that yours may improve and I see no reason why they should not. However no one to date has mentioned facial thread veins so this could prove rather interesting and if you could get your partner to provide us with a photograph of the effected area it will help to identify changes. If this is a problem then please do not feel pressurised, as this is not my intention.

Namaste

Andrew

OldDragon

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My camera is still not working, but the shape of my legs below the knees has certianly altered for the better,, so I'll do my best to find an alternate means to photograph them.

Today my stats are:

BP 133/88
Pulse:82;
Body Fat: 49.1%;
Body Water: 35%;
Body Muscle: 47.3%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 40cms; Right: 40cms.
Weight: 14st 10bs.

(These taken not long after returning home so not as well rested as would be ideal.)

No changes in suppliments.
No aspirin taken today but on regular doses of antihistamine tablets for hayfever and Salbutemol for asthma.

No lower back pain. (This despite additional work mucking out a stable daily.)



alun006

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Hi Andrew, I found keeping on top of your fluid intake makes a big difference when doing inclined bed therapy.

Also i have gained a great deal by trying to understand the theory side of inclined bed therapy especially the observation that i had made yesterday and today.

Yesterday, it was very hot and dry and i was particularly please with the way my vv looked, even to the point i ventured out on the evening with the dog with my shorts on, this has not happened since before i had them 15 years ago.

However, the next day it was 94% humidity and overcast. This made a difference to the look of my varicose veins and i felt disappointed about this until i remembered about the humidity part of andrews theory on inclined bed therapy.

This meant that i could understand that because i have only been on the ibt for 5 weeks my veins had reacted to the humidity in the air on that day, and i found this interesting to observe.

In other words a understand of the theory have befitted me greatly as well as the ibt itself.

This of course is thanks to Andrew, and the many questions he answers for me.

thankyou alun



« Last Edit: 28/07/2008 20:04:03 by alun006 »

Squirrel

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My Inclined Bed Therapy Experience.
5 years ago I inclined my bed to help with asthma and nasal problems Ė that worked wonderfully, I breathe quite easily now, however, over the past 28 years I have had several operations to remove and repair varicose veins, Which had recurred four times already and I was told by the surgeon that they would recur again. Both my mother and maternal grandmother suffered dreadfully with this complaint. I enjoy walking and the thought of eventually developing leg ulcers was quite terrifying to me as it would be to anyone, but my legs are fine now without even a hint of blue lines let alone lumps the size of walnuts, furthermore I have not suffered with any swelling in my legs or ankles since I began IBT.
It hadnít occurred to me that I no longer had a varicose vein problem because that wasnít why Iíd inclined my bed in the first place, that was a brilliant unexpected bonus.
The downside of having the bed inclined is that I tried ĎBotoxí (as we ladies of a certain age might) and it only worked for about a week. The cosmetic surgeon was amazed that the paralyzed muscles in my face repaired themselves so quickly. She said I should console myself with the fact that if I should ever have a stroke my facial muscles would be back to normal in double quick time!
When I go away on holiday where I don't have an inclined bed I have noticed that my nasal passages are usually blocked for part of the morning, and I feel quite sluggish and apparently my snoring is deafening. My partner suggests that we pack a few bricks into the cases so that he can get a decent night's sleep.

Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Squirrel Thank you for posting these valuable observations with repeated varicose vein surgery and your experience with using Botox. Both are fascinating, when first mentioned this was a revelation for me as I have been involved with neurological conditions as you know for many years and this proves what I have been stating about nerves recovering from impact or degenerative disease using Inclined Bed Therapy.

Itís a pity there are not more people using IBT that have tried botox to confirm this, but it would provide a great method of testing and compiling a protocol for a study to confirm the efficacy of IBT for spinal injury and other neurological conditions. If memory serves me well, you had this procedure repeated and the outcome was the same with a rapid recovery more than once? I have learned of several professional therapists in the USA who specialise in Spinal Cord Rehabilitation are already advising their patients to use IBT.

It is good to learn that you will not need further surgery on your veins in the foreseeable future and this can only mean than because the pressure inside the veins which was causing them to become swollen has now been reduced. Indicating that surgery success rates can be raised considerably and therefore substantially reducing the cost to the health service and the private patients.

It is great to learn about other implications for IBT and they are very important observations in their own right requiring further investigation and a controlled study to prove or disprove them.

Back to the purpose of this study.

I am very grateful for everyone that is helping me with this and the photographs and reports are indeed compelling. However we do need many more people to come forward and test this so I am thinking that an article in a newspaper, radio or tv programme would go a long way to finding some more people with varicose veins and / or oedema to help with our study.

Appeal.

If you are a member of a group, work in the health service, are a doctor or surgeon, or feel confident enough to ask your local newspaper to run a story about our study it would go a long way to helping us complete this study and move this discovery into mainstream practice and literature.

Andrew

 

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