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Author Topic: Varicose Veins & Oedema Study Inclined Bed Therapy IBT Alternative to Surgery  (Read 212872 times)

Unnaked Patient

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Thanks for your informative comments. Will simply raise the head end of my bed to the suggested incline, in the hope, that this will let me enjoy my bedroom again. I did some reading on what I found on this site on ITB an MS, not for myself, but mostly for my doctor, as we live in a region evidencing an unusually high concentration of MS sufferers, affecting also some members of my extended family.

A lifelong wearer of high heeled shoes, is there anyone else, who feels uncomfortable on flat feet? My heels go on the moment I step out of bed (or chair for the time being). A pair of cowhide sling back clunkers is my favourite at this time. 3 1/2" or 9 1/2 cm high, very chunky, solid heels.

My doctor will recommend flat shoes of course. Nevertheless, I will have to unnake myself a bit and finally discuss this issue with him, to see what else can be done. At the medical clinic where I go, we some pretty progressive practitioners of medicine.

Thanks, again, Andrew. Best,

Dagmar.

Unnaked Patient

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Hi Andrew:

It's a go. Will start experimenting with a suitable structure tonight, plus perhaps get some foam padding for my mattress. They advertise memory foam a lot here. Will see. If it can be arranged, my doc has agreed to take the before and after pictures. I just felt that this would provide more credibility than pictures taken by a medically unscientific, unnaked sufferer. Be patient, four weeks you all say.

Thanks again. Best,


Dagmar.

P.S. Although I asked my doctor specifically to take a good look at my feet while standing barefoot on the floor, high heels were never mentioned. Seems they are a 'no issue'.

Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Dagmar and a big thankyou for joining our little experiment with posture for varicose veins and oedema.

Having the doctor take the photographs is going to prove very interesting. Hopefully your doctor will be able to offer a comment in a few weeks time.

The heels you mention, I have also thought about how and why people manage to walk in these. One would think that the discomfort would prove far too uncomfortable. But there might just be some additional boost to the circulation going on that affords prolonged use of them. This might also be why returning back to flat shoes becomes alien to someone using high heels.

We use a memory foam mattress, some people compain they they become too warm on a foam mattress but this does not appear to be the case on an inclined bed, although a friend of mine who has taken the angle to an extream did find she became too warm and she returned back to a coil sprung mattress. Her conditions is psoriasis btw, which probably affects the natural cooling of the skin. That said she is completely clear most of the time since tilting the bed and only shows 3 smal patches on elblows and name of back when she has some return of P. This is in direct contrast to her skin before tilting the bed, where she had considerable problems accompanied by joint problems due to the type of psoriasis she has.

Andrew

Maureen

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Hi Dagmar,

I wore 3 1/2" high heels for over 35 years. I wore them all day at work but changed to flats when I got home. I always had a pull type feeling in my calves (as if there were a guy wire pulling tight in my calf muscles) and could not bend over on my hunkers even if you paid me. It did not stop me walking a lot, cycling, rebounding etc. Just any kind of stretching was impossible for me. Finally I went to a Massage Therapist that did a very slight sideway pull back and forth on my calves and although it felt like nothing was being done it worked amazingly well for me. I went for many treatments after that to keep flexible then stopped. That was over 6 years ago and I still have no problem with it. So it may be worth it for you to try massage. 

Maureen
« Last Edit: 29/08/2009 15:36:44 by Maureen »

Unnaked Patient

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Foam should not cause me any problems then, a I am always on the cold side. I am almost totally marblized with the Raynaud's blue tinge, which instantly disappears when lying down. My ankles are in very good shape, my legs, although not lacking in prominent veins, are very muscular, tops of my feet are covered with distended veins, which will become barely visible when in my shoes and wearing my other standby, also a lifelong habit, a regular pair of nylons, only very lightly constrictive. I do pay attention to waistbands with these, as some manufacturers make their 'one size fits all' waistbands even too tight for me. I am a very small person, 5'4", far removed from any weight problems, and have always avoided tight clothing.

When first looking at your website, your claim that varicose veins can revert, did not seem outlandish at all to me. I have one instance on my body, where this occurred, but I do not know how. All that is left, is one tiny bluish spot, size of the letter 'o', and barely visible. Original length about an 1 1/2", located directly under my navel. The reason for conducting my most recent search on reversal, was exactly, to find the answer to my own observations. After all, there had to be other people who have experienced reversal, even though not working on it deliberately. What I found instead, is deliberation, quite an improvement over unintentional. I am not complaining.


Thanks, again. Best,

Dagmar.






Unnaked Patient

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For Maureen: Thanks for your input. My heels go on the morning, and only come off when about to lie down. No muscles pulling, even when doing hands on the floor exercises with knees straight, feet about 1 1/2' apart.

alun006

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Hi Andrew

As promised i thought i would update you with a picture of my calf tonight, As you can see the picture is better quality that normal. I just had problems keeping the camera still, but feel that the pictures shows the progress that has been made.

It is starting to look more now the way it first ever looked when i first noticed it many years ago.

I HAD TO BE PATIENT BUT WAS AWARE THAT IMPROVEMENT WAS BEING NOTICED


THIS IS THE CALF BEFORE INCLINE BED THERAPY - NOT TAKEN AT THE SAME ANGLE BUT SHOWS HOW IT WAS


THIS PICTURE WAS TAKEN AFTER 10 WEEKS - BUT NEEDED TO SEE MORE IMPROVEMENT




(THIS WAS TAKEN AT 8pm TONIGHT)
« Last Edit: 30/08/2009 20:12:27 by alun006 »

freeone

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Hi Andrew , I was diagnosed about eleven years ago with relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis .I decided three days ago to try the inclined bed therapy. First couple of days i felt the old usual pins and needles aches pins etc. But today when i awoke  i could hardly stand with the pain in my lower back .I was taken aback because as i walked down stairs i felt like what i can describe only as electric shocks go up and down my spine followed by big waves i also felt something shift . I have never felt this clear for many a year.I am on LDN and although it has helped me in other ways i can only put this shift and clear headiness down to your inclined bed therapy . I will continue to sleep this way and i will keep a record of any changes that occurs and I truly want to Thankyou for posting your video and your inclined bed therapy idea on youtube. Hope I have posted this in correct area.
Many Thanks
Vivienne

Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Vivienne

Great to hear from you.

This thread is the varicose veins and oedema study but I am sure no one will mind you posting about your own experience using Inclined Therapy here.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=3886.50 this is the thread where you will find more information of use to you.

If you could also post your observatons here: http://www.thisisms.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6755&start=90

It would be a great help as this is an MS forum and a friendly place like the NS forum.

The shooting pains is unusual to begin after a few days and is indicative that you may well experience significant recovery in the short term. I must warn you though pain is usually a primary indication of an imminent gain and pain can usually become intense as nerve pathways open up. But if you think about it for a while it makes sense as a connection with the brain from an area that was devoid of sensation allbeit a discomfort does lend itself to thinking that some damage must have been repaired for this to happen.

The first two weeks can be a bit of a rolercoaster ride but after this things settle down a bit in RR ms.

Andrew


Andrew K Fletcher

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Alun, WOW what a difference.

And you no longer wear compression stockings that's a double WOW. Hope some vascular surgeons are paying attention here. Thank you :)
« Last Edit: 01/09/2009 09:40:07 by Andrew K Fletcher »

freeone

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oops sorry for posting in wrong forum :I..thanks for the links...

Unnaked Patient

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Someone recently mentioned 'Lifestyle" on this Forum; cannot find the entry at the moment. Below a link to something that can be managed without great effort:

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#cleave

The Saccharine Disease, BRISTOL, JOHN WRIGHT & SONS LIMITED 1974
Chapter IV Varicose Veins, Deep Venous Thrombosis, Varicocele, and Haemorrhoids; This author offers a highly plausible theory on causation and on how to arrest further development, but no suggestions with respect to reversal. Simple sugars were discussed along the same lines already by a German team of researchers in the early sixties. Will provide Author, Title and link (if available) as soon as I can locate the information.

Best,


Dagmar

daryl l

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hey guys,

this is my latest photo update, taken on saturday around 3pm on a fairly cold day

i think you will all agree it is actually starting to look worse rather than better!
now i don't want to be classed as negative but i have obvious concerns about my legs,
as you can see i had shaved my legs about a month ago, this was to get a better idea on whether the veins had improved
i have been on ibt for nearly five months and in that time i have, lost weight,
cycled only for exercize, not strained at all, and consumed plenty of fluid,

andrew can you please advise, i don't want to stop the ibt but after seeing my leg on saturday i am slightly concerned that although this treatment may work for some, it may actually harm others,the bloating on the side of my knee is a real worry?

alun, judging by your photos you seem to have made improvements in the last year, and as you said previously they do sometimes look worse before they look better, do you still have days or times during the day, when the veins look as bad as they did before you started ibt?

many thanks
« Last Edit: 08/09/2009 07:39:13 by daryl l »

Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Daryl thanks for getting back to us and for providing the new photograph.
Here is the first photograph you provided on the 19/05/2009 for comparison.



You say in your post that you had been on IBT for 5 months, How does the VV compare to before the bed was tilted?

There will be times for most people that veins inflate more and become more visible. Temperature, humidity, exercise, posture, tight elasticated stockings, all need to be taken into account.

It may turn out that you are indeed an exception to the reports from others and you are not being negative by stating what you are observing, this is exactly what we need to determine the effects, negatives or positive it is still an observation made by someone using the inclined method.

Personally would stop wearing those ankle socks, I did a long time ago :) Any clothing that leaves a mark in the skin needs ditching or at least the elestic stretching until it relaxes more. This could well be the cause of the vein on your foot enlarging. Those particular socks restrict / narrow the vessels at the foot, coupled with the trainers you wear and how tight the laces are you have an effective Tourniquet, not unlike that used by nurses taking blood from veins in the arms and very efficient at causing veins to swell up to make them easier to locate.

From your recent photograph it does look like there is an increase in swelling. Could you take 3 photographs morning afternoon and evening without the equivelent ankle sock tourniquet for comparison and can you remember what time the first photograph was taken and what you were doing prior to it being taken?

Thanks again Daryl, very useful report and photographs.

Andrew

 
« Last Edit: 08/09/2009 09:15:19 by Andrew K Fletcher »

daryl l

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hey andrew thanks for the quick reply,

my comparison from before i started ibt is simply that my vein has swollen more than before, whether it be caused by ibt or simply the fact that is was just a matter of time before it got worse thats what im trying to establish

the only real difference i have noticed in myself is that before the veins would actually hurt(unless i wore a compression stocking) and now they don't! but i do wonder whether this may simply be the fact that it was winter prior to my ibt!

also i must say that neither myself nor my girlfriend has suffered any kind of illness ie colds, hayfever, or the dreaded swine since we started tilting the bed (thats a definate plus point)

as for the trainers, i hear what you are saying there:)they are actually boots im wearing there and the socks pull up a lot higher than my ankles, i must admit i rarely wear those and on saturday the vein was the worst its ever looked, and it did stay up pretty much all day!
so i totally understand your point about the tourniquet scenario, really i suppose it just shows my vein bloating at its very worst!

im not going to stop using ibt, and i will take those three photos as you ask, i just hope the bloody thing doesn't spread any further up or down my leg!!

ps is the whole point of ibt to actually make the veins disappear completely for life, or just look better at certain times during the day?

kind regards again d
« Last Edit: 08/09/2009 11:47:32 by daryl l »

Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Daryl

Any clothing that leaves a mark in the skin should be avoided, socks in particular are at the narrowest point in the leg where all of the veins and arteries converge, so this is very important when paying attention to your veins.

Have your blood pressure checked too. This is also important to monitor.

And last of all you mention compression stockings. Have you stopped using these now? If so then some additional swelling initially after you have stopped using them is a logical observation.

You asked if Inclined Therapy only provides temporary relief or permanent relief from varicose veins. I can only relate to my wifes vein since end of 1994. It has never returned to it's walnut size and aching. And Penny a good friend who had a large varicose vein running down the inside of her leg from thigh to ankle who was pictured on the beach showing clearly that the varicose vein has become normal in diameter and visibility since 1995.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=9843.50

So we need to find out if it is your tight socks and boots that caused the vein to swell.

In the morning before you get out of bed, can your wife take a photograph of the vein with you lying down. This should show the vein to be completely flattened as was the case with Alun's.

Andrew
 

« Last Edit: 10/09/2009 10:29:30 by Andrew K Fletcher »

Ely

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Hi Andrew

I tried IT for 4 weeks and my husband refuses to do it any longer since he can't sleep inclined very well.  Is there a way for me to incline myself and still acheive the same effect as if I inclined the whole bed?  Thanks!

BTW, I have only noticed an improvement in the achiness of my VV and haven't noticed any improvement in the appearance.

Thanks!
Ericka

Andrew K Fletcher

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Hi Andrew

I tried IT for 4 weeks and my husband refuses to do it any longer since he can't sleep inclined very well.  Is there a way for me to incline myself and still acheive the same effect as if I inclined the whole bed?  Thanks!

BTW, I have only noticed an improvement in the achiness of my VV and haven't noticed any improvement in the appearance.

Thanks!
Ericka

Hi Ericka. Maybe if you lower the bed to a 4 inch incline and gradually raised it your husband might accept it better. Only way you could have a tilted bed is to use two single beds pushed together and yours tilted, or make a wedge to place under your side of the mattress.

Bet the veins stopped aching during walks? especially uphill right? :)

Denise

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Hello all

I still have to get these pics on here.  Alun, if I could have your email address, I will mail you the pics to upload on my behalf if your kind offer still stands?  I don't have the patience! :)

I have now been sleeping inclined for 7 weeks.  We went to Barcelona for 5 days and took blocks to incline the bed over there so I haven't missed a night! :)

My calf vein is showing definate signs of improvement although I tend to forget this and get despondent when it does bulge from time to time.

When I get up in the morning it no longer bulges straight away and when it does it is much flatter and not so much of it shows.  it only takes a very short while of me being up and about before it disappears.  It seems to completely disappear to the point where it is difficult to even see the vein far more than it stands out.  I love seeing my calf with no bulging vein :)

even  when I go running, it seems to stay flat for the duration of my run, bulges when I stop running and cool down and then disappears again shortly after.  This is consistent with the reaction of the veins in my arms which also bulge when I exercise then lay flat again when I have stopped and cool back down.  I guess this is ho normal veins react.

I feel like my calf vein is starting to act like a normal vein and I am fairly confident that if I continue with IBT that it may eventually not bulge at any time.  Fingers crossed.

I would just say to Ericka that 4 weeks is probably not long enough to notice any significant changes in the appearance of the veins and you really need to persevere.  I can't believe the improvements in Alun's veins.  That calf vein looks fab compare to 14 months ago.

alun006

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Daryl

To your question, yes i have experienced similar in my time on inclined bed therapy.

I remember, the very bottom looking bloated periodically in the same sort of way. However my experience was that the vein settled down in time.

In fact, if you look back at some of my threads, their was a situation with the very top of one of my vv's aswell. But this was because the vein was acting in a positive way rather than a negative.

Denise, you are very welcome to send the pictures you have taken, and i will upload them for you.

Contact me through the information on my profile.

Keep asking questions guys, i have been their and know that sometimes you may feel like nothing is happening. But in my experience it has always surprised me in a positive way every time.

I appreciate all of Andrew's dedication to this therapy and will support him as much as i can.
alun
« Last Edit: 11/09/2009 18:26:35 by alun006 »

Maureen

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Hi Andrew,

It’s been six weeks now that I have been sleeping on an Inclined Bed (IB). So far I can not see any further improvement in the amount of fluid/puffiness in my ankles since I last reported after 9 nights on IB. However, this is what I did notice. I had taken a three week break from jogging on a treadmill and rebounding on a mini-trampoline before sleeping on an IB. Also the same three weeks break from receiving Low Intensity Laser Therapy (L.I.L.T.) on my thighs and ankles for pain relief and fluid reduction. After resuming jogging while on the IB, I felt the usual soreness/stiffness that one gets when starting exercise. It seemed to be too much achiness for such a short break so I do not know if it was only exercise soreness or something due to Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT). I still feel slightly uncomfortable in my calves. I have not resumed L.I.L.T to date as I wanted to see what IBT would do on its own. My pressure pain level has reduced from a 7/10 to a 2/10 in the past week or so which is great!

L.I.L.T. history; In March 2008 I started with a pressure pain level of 6/10. After about 9 treatments the pain level reduced for the first time. I had a total of 20 treatments by October and ended with a pain level of 2/10. My insurance ran out so I waited until June 2009. The pain stayed away for about six months then gradually came back, this time to a level 7 which may likely be due to my tolerance level being lowered, I am not sure.
I have had 8 treatments so far in 2009 then stopped. Most people only need 1-10 L.I.L.T. treatments for injuries because they have a one time injury. Since I seem to collect and store fluid on a daily basis due to some malfunction it only makes sense that without continued treatment the problem will not remain fixed. So now with Inclined Bed Therapy and L.I.L.T. combined which I know both works for me I want to go back for the remainder of treatments I have insurance coverage for in 2009.

I will not book any appointments until I hear from you in case you want me to wait a bit longer. The sooner I go back for treatments the better for me since the weather will get bad later on and cause problems.

Maureen

Andrew K Fletcher

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Maurine it is not for me to want you to do anything. Take from this therapy what you want and share your experience with us here, this is the only requirement.

I will say that the pain in your legs should become less using I.T based on many people reporting significant reductions in pain.

If you are comfortable with testing the inclined bed and the pain is not increasing then curiosity might get the better of you.

Talk to your doctor about what you are doing as he/she might be interested in what you have to say as the weeks go by.

The discomfort in your calf’s, would it be similar to discomfort from working out or exercising as if the muscles were becoming tighter?

Are you still wearing compression stocking, if so have you considered seeing what happens over 24 hours without wearing any?

Thanks for the update and fingers crossed over the coming weeks.


snoop40

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hi...i have a question: i'm 19 years old and i have so large veins on my legs...is that healthy?what do you think

thanks

snoop40

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another pic of my legs....

snoop40

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i had those veins sice i was 15

 

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