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i don't really want to argue. i don't like arguing. i was kinda cranky this morning and i responded... crankily. lol. this whole war is hard to contemplate. there are many aspects to look at. this morning i was feeling patriotic i suppose.
Kadie,I stated my opinion in general above, but did not address specific issues that you raised because you wanted to close off you involvement, and I will address what I have to say to others, so please do not assume I am responding to you - we shall just agree to disagree.System_failureGTz,To say that the Middle East is a place that has been at war with itself for thousands of years is an accurate description of any place upon this planet that human civilisation has reached - human beings have been at war wherever there have been human beings.Specifically with regard to the Middle East, it was actually a fairly stable region of the world for the centuries of the Ottoman Empire, which like any large empire (just as the Roman Empire in Europe and the Mediterranean region, or the British Empire in various parts of the world) was a stabilising influence.Just as the collapse of the Western Roman empire in Europe lead to the Dark Ages in European history, so the collapse of the British Empire left a lot of wars in its wake in Africa, so too the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in the Middle East left a political vacuum, political instability, and wars, in its wake.In this political vacuum, it can bring to the fore some vicious tyrants (as we had in Medieval Europe), and thus we had people like Saddam Hussain come forward. The Americans removed that vicious tyrant, and left in its place the original political vacuum that he had filled.As Paul mentioned, no outside power is going to be successful in implementing order within that political vacuum. Not least, no outside power really understands, or at this distance can ever hope to understand, the various internal power struggles and local allegiances that have to be managed within the region.America's action in recreating the political vacuum that allowed Saddam Hussain to come to power, and merely assuming that from that vacuum something better would naturally arise, was naive in the extreme.Furthermore, and this was the greatest stupidity of it all, America had just undertaken an exercise in invading Afghanistan, and as was obvious to anybody with any sense of history (something I realise that many American politicians sadly lack) is a major undertaking in itself. To have committed to an invasion of Iraq before having stabilised the situation in Afghanistan was an act of brazen stupidity that makes the failure of both projects highly likely. Had America committed itself wholeheartedly to the rebuilding of Afghanistan, without diverting resources to Iraq, it might just (although with no certainty of outcome - many great nations in the past have failed to pacify Afghanistan) have created a showcase that might have made its actions elsewhere in the Middle East more tenable, and no doubt would also have given the US some experience in dealing with Middle Eastern issues that could have helped it deal with an Iraqi invasion at a later date.As it is, all America has created is the groundwork for two simultaneous and interlinked failures. Furthermore, prior to the invasion of Iraq, there was no linkage between Iraq and Afghanistan - they were two separate problems that should have been dealt with separately. The USA has succeeded in creating a linkage, in joining two of its enemies in a common cause where previously there had not been a common cause. The USA has also given Iran more power and credibility within the region than it had at any time since the time of the Shah.I am not so naive in believing that the US removing its troops from Iraq will solve the problems there. The situation the USA created it cannot uncreate. The best the USA can now do is isolate itself from the situation it has created, because it is powerless to do anything to help, and can only really get itself ever more embroiled in a situation it simply is not capable of controlling.It is difficult to know whether it is too late to try and refocus on Afghanistan, but if we are not too late to try and make that focus, then at least resources that are freed up in Iraq might have some hope of shoring up the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan.The problem is that we risk losing even more than Iraq. If we don't fix the problem in Afghanistan, then we will very likely lose Pakistan as well (and remember that Pakistan is also a nuclear nation). Losing Iraq might yet be a price we have to pay in order to save Afghanistan, if we are not already too late to save Afghanistan.
Quote from: another_someone on 04/06/2007 14:17:18Kadie,I stated my opinion in general above, but did not address specific issues that you raised because you wanted to close off you involvement, and I will address what I have to say to others, so please do not assume I am responding to you - we shall just agree to disagree.System_failureGTz,To say that the Middle East is a place that has been at war with itself for thousands of years is an accurate description of any place upon this planet that human civilisation has reached - human beings have been at war wherever there have been human beings.Specifically with regard to the Middle East, it was actually a fairly stable region of the world for the centuries of the Ottoman Empire, which like any large empire (just as the Roman Empire in Europe and the Mediterranean region, or the British Empire in various parts of the world) was a stabilising influence.Just as the collapse of the Western Roman empire in Europe lead to the Dark Ages in European history, so the collapse of the British Empire left a lot of wars in its wake in Africa, so too the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in the Middle East left a political vacuum, political instability, and wars, in its wake.In this political vacuum, it can bring to the fore some vicious tyrants (as we had in Medieval Europe), and thus we had people like Saddam Hussain come forward. The Americans removed that vicious tyrant, and left in its place the original political vacuum that he had filled.As Paul mentioned, no outside power is going to be successful in implementing order within that political vacuum. Not least, no outside power really understands, or at this distance can ever hope to understand, the various internal power struggles and local allegiances that have to be managed within the region.America's action in recreating the political vacuum that allowed Saddam Hussain to come to power, and merely assuming that from that vacuum something better would naturally arise, was naive in the extreme.Furthermore, and this was the greatest stupidity of it all, America had just undertaken an exercise in invading Afghanistan, and as was obvious to anybody with any sense of history (something I realise that many American politicians sadly lack) is a major undertaking in itself. To have committed to an invasion of Iraq before having stabilised the situation in Afghanistan was an act of brazen stupidity that makes the failure of both projects highly likely. Had America committed itself wholeheartedly to the rebuilding of Afghanistan, without diverting resources to Iraq, it might just (although with no certainty of outcome - many great nations in the past have failed to pacify Afghanistan) have created a showcase that might have made its actions elsewhere in the Middle East more tenable, and no doubt would also have given the US some experience in dealing with Middle Eastern issues that could have helped it deal with an Iraqi invasion at a later date.As it is, all America has created is the groundwork for two simultaneous and interlinked failures. Furthermore, prior to the invasion of Iraq, there was no linkage between Iraq and Afghanistan - they were two separate problems that should have been dealt with separately. The USA has succeeded in creating a linkage, in joining two of its enemies in a common cause where previously there had not been a common cause. The USA has also given Iran more power and credibility within the region than it had at any time since the time of the Shah.I am not so naive in believing that the US removing its troops from Iraq will solve the problems there. The situation the USA created it cannot uncreate. The best the USA can now do is isolate itself from the situation it has created, because it is powerless to do anything to help, and can only really get itself ever more embroiled in a situation it simply is not capable of controlling.It is difficult to know whether it is too late to try and refocus on Afghanistan, but if we are not too late to try and make that focus, then at least resources that are freed up in Iraq might have some hope of shoring up the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan.The problem is that we risk losing even more than Iraq. If we don't fix the problem in Afghanistan, then we will very likely lose Pakistan as well (and remember that Pakistan is also a nuclear nation). Losing Iraq might yet be a price we have to pay in order to save Afghanistan, if we are not already too late to save Afghanistan.AS, at the risk of pissing you off, may I ask how you become so smart? Were you born knowing everythng? You know more than our government experts. But, maybe you should give it a rest while you learn how to read? You misinterpret almost everything posted to you. Surely you don't do this on purpose?
Quote from: kdlynn on 02/06/2007 03:45:09i don't really want to argue. i don't like arguing. i was kinda cranky this morning and i responded... crankily. lol. this whole war is hard to contemplate. there are many aspects to look at. this morning i was feeling patriotic i suppose. KDLynn, I admire you for being patriotic. I love patriots, especially patriotic Americans. It's the anti-American citizen that I don't like, anti-Americans who live in freedom because of what America's patriots have fought and died for, and all they ever do is put America down. To these thankless anti-Americans, everything America does is wrong. We should deport the loud-mouth jerks to Iran. After all, America is a terrible place to live and Iran is so wonderful.
AS, at the risk of pissing you off, may I ask how you become so smart? Were you born knowing everythng? You know more than our government experts. But, maybe you should give it a rest while you learn how to read? You misinterpret almost everything posted to you. Surely you don't do this on purpose?