Naked Science Forum

On the Lighter Side => New Theories => Topic started by: Andrea on 11/07/2009 08:30:01

Title: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Andrea on 11/07/2009 08:30:01
Andrea asked the Naked Scientists:
   
Hi Chris,

I am a 702 listener and heard you talking about ozone and how toxic it is.

My 3 year old had a fissure in his tooth and they used ozone to kill the bacteria before sealing it. I have since found out that this procedure is not FDA approved but it is being used by many dentists. What are the consequences of this treatment for my son?

Regards
Andrea

What do you think?
Title: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: techmind on 11/10/2009 12:53:21
Chemistry and toxicity are not really my areas of expertise, but I wouldn't worry about the ozone treatment.

Ozone is unstable (it decomposes to oxygen and/or reacts with other things and ceases to exist) so it won't accumulate in the body or anything like that. For a single dose, I would suggest that effects (if any) would be immediate (minutes/hours), rather than time delayed. It's a sort-of sterilising/bleaching agent.

I don't know how they apply the ozone for dental purposes, but I would guess it's applied extremely locally - high local concentration in a few cubic millimetres in the tooth, but rather more dilute if the same amount formed part of a breath. They may well use a surrounding airflow to tend to prevent the patient breathing it anyway.

The amount of ozone breathed in in a single dental treatment is probably pretty small compared to the lifetime exposure to atmospheric ozone pollution if you live in a city...


I stress I'm not an expert, and the above is mostly educated-guesswork/intuition.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 21/12/2018 18:58:06
The National Institutes of Health have been conducting MANY studies on the efficacy of various Ozone Therapies, albeit small ones since Big Money won't fund it.   

Do Internet Searches on "Ozone Therapy" using "NIH" in your search and be amazed at how Ozone is a Game-Changer in responsible healthcare.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 21/12/2018 19:32:54
I was not amazed.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 21/12/2018 21:58:35
You didn't look.

"In conclusion, many aspects regarding the bio-medical application of ozone therapy remain unexplored. In the present prospective study, the effect of ozone therapy on human tumor pO2 has been measured using the polarographic probe technique, and the results indicate that ozone therapy could increase oxygenation in the most hypoxic tumors. This suggests the potential use of this therapy as adjuvant in chemo-radiotherapy schedules, and would warrant further investigation."

"Treating patients with ozone therapy lessens the treatment time with an immense deal of variation and it eradicates the bacterial count more specifically. The treatment is painless and increases the patients’ tolerability and fulfillment with minimal adverse effects. Contraindications of this controversial method should not be forgotten. Further research is needed to regulate indications and treatment procedures of ozone therapy."

"Almost 100% MRSA were eliminated by ozonated oil following 15 min. In addition, 100% S. aureus and 100% MRSA were eliminated by ozonated water in 1 min. The inhibition zone diameters of ozonated oil for S. aureus and MRSA were 17 and 13 mm, respectively, which were significantly larger than the control group. Both cases of skin MRSA infection were completely healed with ozone therapy. In conclusion, ozone therapy is a potential treatment for S. aureus and MRSA skin infection as it has great efficacy, few side effects and low‑costs."

"With fast growing clinical trials in O3 therapy and quick administration of the O3, O3 therapy may be on the rise to be at the forefront of treating DFUs. Compelling evidence is seen in clinical trials, but more must be done to fully understand the role of O3 in DFUs."

If you are Bored with these early, unbiased government findings, then You are boring.  I remain amazed at what future research will bolster.

Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 21/12/2018 22:47:51
further investigation
Further research is needed
but more must be done

A whole bunch of "maybe" does not amaze me.

How did you check that they are " unbiased government findings, "?
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 21/12/2018 23:01:47
"The National Institutes of Health (NIH), a part of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, is the nation’s medical research agency — making important discoveries that improve health and save lives."

Their studies are humble, because they are self-funded, not funded by Big Pharma or any other Money-Bags;

but the results have been POSITIVE, not negative, not "maybe", not "neutral".

What kind of "Scientist" ignores NIH statements in favor of the "Cochrane library"?

Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 22/12/2018 10:17:20
"The National Institutes of Health (NIH), a part of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, is the nation’s medical research agency — making important discoveries that improve health and save lives."
Yes.
But they didn't do the work.
Let's have a look at your first example; the one that starts.

""In conclusion, many aspects regarding the bio-medical application of ozone therapy remain unexplored. In the present prospective study, the effect of ozone therapy on human tumor pO2 has been measured using the polarographic probe technique,..."



Being unscientific, you failed to cite the source. However, I can google it + find this page
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC442111/
And it says
"Ozone Therapy for Tumor Oxygenation: a Pilot Study
Bernardino Clavo,1,5 Juan L. Pérez,2,5 Laura López,1,5 Gerardo Suárez,1,5 Marta Lloret,1,5 Victor Rodríguez,3 David Macías,2,5 Maite Santana,1 María A. Hernández,1,5 Roberto Martín-Oliva,2 and Francisco Robaina4,5
Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer"


The "author information" is a link, and when I click it it tells me the details of the authors of the study

"1Radiation Oncology and Research Unit, Las Palmas (Canary Islands), Spain
2Medical Physics, Las Palmas (Canary Islands), Spain
3La Paterna Medical Center, Las Palmas (Canary Islands), Spain
4Chronic Pain Unit, Dr Negrín Hospital, Las Palmas (Canary Islands), Spain
5Canary Islands Institute for Cancer Research (ICIC), Las Palmas (Canary Islands), Spain
For reprints and all correspondence: Bernardino Clavo, Department of Radiation Oncology and Research Unit, Dr Negrín Hospital, C/ Barranco la Ballena s/n, 35020 Las Palmas (Canary Islands), Spain. Fax: (+34) 928 449127; Tel: (+34) 928 450284. E-mail: "


That's a hospital on the Canary islands, not the NIH.

OK, so now we know that you don't even know how to read a scientific paper's citation.

Why should we pay any attention to your opinion about ozone?
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 22/12/2018 16:26:44
Months ago I began researching this topic, and NIH studies came up, more and more since I first looked;

NONE of which had NEGATIVE things to say about applying Ozone to various, serious Health issues, all of which said More research is needed to make these assertions stronger.

Anyone relying upon the brash, hostile, Officious remarks would have blindly assumed that no such findings existed.

And THAT was my point, that based on your ignorant piffle nobody could have imagined that Our Nations leading Health Research body has published numerous remarks like the following:

"O3 therapy can alter the natural history of several disease and disorders, with potentially many more yet untested. A plethora of laboratory studies have provided evidence of O3's antioxidant capabilities, as well as vascular, hematological, and immune system modulations. This evidence has been further substantiated in clinical trials with O3 therapy being useful in the cardiovascular, subcutaneous tissue, peripheral vascular disease, neurological, head and neck, orthopedic, gastrointestinal, and genitourinary pathologies. O3 therapy has proven especially beneficial in the diabetic foot, ischemic wounds, and peripheral vascular disease, areas in which O3 use is most prevalent. Upcoming laboratory and translational research should begin to develop protocols for O3-AHT in attempts to establish a dose-response relationship as it has demonstrated high utility in a myriad of pathologies at varying concentrations. Despite the presently compelling evidence, future studies should include more double-blind, randomized clinical trials with greater sample sizes, determination of longevity in benefits produced, as well as methods of measurements and analysis."

"Ozone was effectively used as an antibacterial agent to treat oral infections caused by Actinomyces naeslundii, Lactobacilli casei and Streptococcus mutans. Exposure of about 60 s exhibited 99.9% killing efficiency, but exposure for such a long period showed degradation of saliva proteins. So exposure of 10 s to 30 s was proved effective to kill significant number of bacteria.[47]

A single subcutaneous injection of O3 in mouse with spared nerve injury of the sciatic nerve was found to decrease the neuropathic pain-type behavior. Mechanism of this action is yet unclear but O3 was observed to regulate the expression of the genes that play vital role in onset and maintenance of allodynia.[48]"

These are Not my Opinions, oh Opinionated One; these are US publications that have been peer-reviewed, which your remarks imply Don't Exist.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/12/2018 15:31:27
When you cite references (rather than quote) people might look at them.
As it  stands, I can't find out where some of the quotes are from. For all I know, you made them up.
One I can find is by a group of authors in India and published in the Saudi journal of Dental Research.
That's not in the group of " US publications that have been peer-reviewed,"

So, why not start by learning to actually cite papers properly?
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 26/12/2018 18:10:01
For the Love of God; do a simple Internet Search using NIH and OZONE Therapy.

Do one that includes MRSA,
one that includes MS,
one that includes Diabetes,
one that includes Mycobacterium tuberculosis,
and on an on.......

You are not only Boring;
you're remarkably LAZY as well.

You're nothing but a Flat Earth Nay-Sayer.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/12/2018 18:48:56
you're remarkably LAZY as well.
How come it's you who won't cite a reference then?
Also, have you got to grips with the fact that NIH references don't mean that NIH "approves" of them. It's just a list of papers.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 26/12/2018 19:11:30
"The National Institutes of Health (NIH), a part of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, is the nation’s medical research agency — making important discoveries that improve health and save lives."

So, you really think they would present Glowing Verbiage

Ozone therapy: an overview of pharmacodynamics, current research, and clinical utility
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5674660/   : 
Clinical Utility
With its ever-growing ubiquity, O3 therapy is finding a place in many branches of medicine and medical specialties. In fact, its clinical use can be arranged systematically into cardiovascular (Additional Table 1), subcutaneous tissue (Additional Table 2), peripheral vascular disease (Additional Table 3), neurological (Additional Table 4), head and neck (Additional Table 5), orthopedic (Additional Table 6), gastrointestinal (Additional Table 7), and genitourinary (Additional Table 8). These indications are a product of human clinical trials conducted for specific pathologies related to the aforementioned systems. Despite a lack of direct support of O3 therapy, the current Food and Drug Administration regulations do not restrict the use of it in situations where it has proven its safety and effectiveness. Nonetheless, there has been support for its safety and effectiveness in multi-international studies.


If our government scientists believed it was the Complete Crap you represent it to be?

And THAT has always been my point.

You completely misrepresent the efforts our government is putting into amassing literature of a technology they obviously see as promising, not Snake Oil.

Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: evan_au on 26/12/2018 19:35:54
Quote from: SSAMC
evidence of O3's antioxidant capabilities
My understanding is that Ozone (O3) is a powerful oxidising agent - exactly the opposite of an antioxidant.

Oxygen in the air (O2) is fairly reactive, but O3 has an extra oxygen atom which it will give up to almost any organic molecule it bumps into.

Ozone damages the lungs and mouth at a concentration of around 0.1 parts per million (ppm), compared to atmospheric oxygen on which our bodies thrive at around 200,000 ppm.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone

Quote
Exposure of about 60 s exhibited 99.9% killing efficiency, but exposure for such a long period showed degradation of saliva proteins.
I agree that Ozone will damage single-celled organisms, due to its high solubility in water and its powerful oxidising affect on organic chemicals (including bacterial cell walls).

As they point out, this combination means that it will also degrade proteins in saliva.

What they don't point out is that it will also degrade the cell walls of your mouth, nose, lungs and eyes - any surface to which it is exposed, especially if it is a damp surface. They used saliva as a proxy because it is fairly easy to sample - it's not so easy to sample lung tissue to measure the damage caused by ozone exposure.

Quote
Dentistry....MRSA...Diabetes
I can believe that treating a damaged tooth with ozone could reduce bacterial load before applying a filling. But I would apply it very locally, and advise the patient to breathe in through their nose, and out through their mouth. Ozone is dangerous to the mouth, nose and lungs - but at least cells in the mouth renew themselves regularly.

MRSA is a single-celled organism that is resistant to antibiotics. If MRSA gets into an exposed wound which won't heal, exposing the region to a dose of ozone may be beneficial, overall. But I would apply it inside a seal that prevents escape into the room, and in a room with good airflow.

MRSA can kill you if it gets into your bloodstream. But nobody would suggest treating your bloodstream with ozone - that will cause systemic damage.

I see no mechanism by which exposure to ozone could improve regulation of insulin levels to cure diabetes (nor did this thread provide one).

Ozone is a dangerous environmental and occupational hazard, and I would avoid exposing anyone with asthma or other respiratory problems.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 26/12/2018 20:18:06
The NIH publications include an array of precautions that must be taken with ozone.

I am alarmed by the Attitude Here that says:

Believe ME! ..Don't look behind the curtain... Don't do some searches and reading for yourself.
TRUST ME!!!!


I didn't realize this was a Political Site; I thought it was for Scientists, for Inquiring, Inquisitive Minds.

Since it's all about Status Quo and ignoring the latest government publications,
I'm outta here, fellas. 

Celebrate: Mission Accomplished.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 26/12/2018 22:56:44
So, you really think they would present Glowing Verbiage
Here's the NIH page citing the utterly discredited lies of Andrew Wakefield
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9500320



Do you understand what the citation by the NIH means?
It means that the paper was published; that's all.

So your viewpoint "it's cited by NIH means it must be good" makes about as much sense as saying " Google found it- so it must be true!"

Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 26/12/2018 23:30:58
So your point is What? 

All NIH articles expressing positive findings RE Ozone Therapies are Wholy-Invalid,
just because you found a Retraction of one of their papers that has
Absolutely Nothing to Do with Ozone Therapy?

and that WE should put our minds in the sole hands of your precious Cockcrane Library, instead?

NIH's Retraction Proves My POINT, not yours, Boring. 

Thank you for evidencing that NIH retracts things unworthy of NIH's de facto endorsement, by virtue of its publication on their website.

Keep up the Good Work, Boring.

Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: chiralSPO on 26/12/2018 23:31:04
Months ago I began researching this topic, and NIH studies came up, more and more since I first looked;

NONE of which had NEGATIVE things to say about applying Ozone to various, serious Health issues, all of which said More research is needed to make these assertions stronger.

It is VERY rare to find negative results published. It really only happens when research shows that standard approaches are wrong or dangerous ie:
"This thing that everybody does is bad" might get published,
"This thing that nobody does is great" might get published,
"This thing that nobody does is bad" probably won't get published (even if it should).

As far as the NIH goes: Yes, the NIH is (supposed to be) an unbiased, nationally-funded organization. But it is not responsible for doing any of the research that has been discussed here. Another one of their services is that they aggregate relevant published research. This is NOT an endorsement, or an affiliation, or anything other than the NIH saying, "this is an article published in a journal that is relevant to medicine/pharmacology/epidemiology/biology/physiology etc"

Ozone may well have some promise, especially as a disinfectant for non-living systems, but let's not get too excited here.

I didn't realize this was a Political Site; I thought it was for Scientists, for Inquiring, Inquisitive Minds.
A little bit of pushback on a controversial topic is enough to scare you away? Perhaps you are not an inquisitive mind, and are already decided and trying to convince others?
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 26/12/2018 23:35:45
"A little bit of pushback"?

Until I posted, Ozone Therapy was characterized HERE as ill-conceived, foolish at best.

That is a LIE.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 28/12/2018 12:42:17
So your point is What? 

All NIH articles expressing positive findings RE Ozone Therapies are Wholy-Invalid,
just because you found a Retraction of one of their papers that has
Absolutely Nothing to Do with Ozone Therapy?

and that WE should put our minds in the sole hands of your precious Cockcrane Library, instead?

NIH's Retraction Proves My POINT, not yours, Boring. 

Thank you for evidencing that NIH retracts things unworthy of NIH's de facto endorsement, by virtue of its publication on their website.

Keep up the Good Work, Boring.


Are you deliberately misunderstanding stuff?
It's beginning to look like you are trolling.

You say "NIH's Retraction Proves My POINT, not yours, Boring.  "

But that's just silly. The NIH didn't retract the paper.

Did you not understand that?



Aldo, you seem to think that the appearance of a paper on the NIH web page is an endorsement.
Do you actually think that?

If not, the NIH has nothing to do with, for example, a paper written by people in India and published in Saudia, so why mention them?
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: alancalverd on 28/12/2018 14:34:02
The Las Palmas paper is interesting. Various attempts have been made to increase the oxygenation of tumors to improve radiotherapy effectiveness, hyperbaric oxygen being one of the most extensively investigated. Not sure than adding ozone to the general bloodstream is altogether a Good Idea but the reported increased oxygenation of the most hypoxic tumors looks promising. Given that nobody wants the tumor to survive, and we have been ablating them with heat, cold, injected cytotoxins and even acetic acid, a direct infusion of ozone seems worth a try, particularly as whatever diffuses out of the tumor is likely to be ess harmful to healthy tissue than, say, vincristine.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 28/12/2018 18:11:48
Thank you, Alan, for your thoughtful, respectful (in contrast to snarky) response.

I've personally witnessed what would have sounded like a miracle to me, if I hadn't seen it for myself.

An almost 90yo male with diabetes and the typical poor circulation and neuropathy was spider bitten in the back of his calf in January 2017. He received typical Dr care till July, when his son asked why his ankle was at least double its normal size.

The patient assured his son that all was well, since he's been under a Dr's care since it happened 7 months ago.  The son and his wife insisted he pull up the leg of his pant so they could see the source of the immense inflammation and alarming rigidity of the entire lower leg.  To their shock, what had been a tiny spider bite had evolved into an actual divet large enough to hold half a mandarine orange.  It was almost to the bone.

The son immediately called upon an old friend, a dentist, who learned about using ozone to kill infection from fellow dentists from Germany, when a group of international dentists went to Cuba in a 'Doctors without borders' type of gathering.

From July for months, they bagged the patient's legs with ozone daily for 30 minutes, each. By December the divet had filled in completely, leaving only pink-stained skin to mark where the damage had been.

If you know anything about the one-way destruction of diabetes, even on far younger, healthier patients, you know these things Never reverse themselves, Never. Legs are typically lost for less.  Having lost close relatives to diabetes, I'm too familiar with the hopelessness once infection sets in.

While ozone can be directly injected into any unwanted mass, its typical application is gently mixing it with about a cup of the patients own blood and IV-ing the mixture right back in.

It is my belief that the only reason the NIH is amassing these studies on Ozone Therapy (since they aren't amassing studies on Snake-Oil) is that they feel they can no longer ignore what individuals across the nation and the world are constantly reporting to them when Ozone is conscientiously applied to health care.

Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: chiralSPO on 28/12/2018 19:20:27
It is my belief that the only reason the NIH is amassing these studies on Ozone Therapy (since they aren't amassing studies on Snake-Oil) is that they feel they can no longer ignore what individuals across the nation and the world are constantly reporting to them when Ozone is conscientiously applied to health care.

Then your belief is wrong: The only reason that you can find research on ozone (and not on snake oil) is that there are studies about ozone that have been published in the journals indexed by the NIH (for a complete list of journals that can be found in the PubMed index, see here: https://www.nlm.nih.gov/bsd/serfile_addedinfo.html )

Please do not interpret this post as snark, or as a claim against ozone--it is merely an attempt to suggest that you are reading too much meaning into the fact that information about ozone can be found through a link with NIH in it. Read the articles, and see what they say--that is what is worth discussing.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: evan_au on 28/12/2018 20:50:04
Quote
An almost 90yo male with diabetes and the typical poor circulation and neuropathy
Is this the origin of the earlier implication that ozone could cure diabetes?

So it is nothing to do with improving insulin regulation, and more about treating a wound that wouldn't heal?

I agree that wound-healing is a major challenge in diabetes, in the aged and in people with bed sores, especially with the spread of superbugs.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: syhprum on 28/12/2018 21:42:17
Iodine is useful for clearing up wounds that are reluctant to heal is its modus operando in anyway similar to that of Ozone.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 29/12/2018 20:37:58
I never wrote that Ozone "cured" anything.  Successful treatments, ameliorating the patients symptoms, improving the Quality of Their Lives are quite different from "curing" them.

If you or your loved one Suffers (or suffered and DIED, like my husband and father did from diabetes) from the ravages of diabetic wounds, MRSA, even MS,

you Know that experiencing positive Treatment results
---is anything BUT Irrelevant, Unscientific, Worthy of Ridicule or the Hostile Fury constantly expressed here. 

It's worthy of unbiased inquiry, something seemingly RARE, or far too quiet, at this site.

The proof of the Pudding is in the Eating, not a Theoretical Recipe that ignores the actual baked treat.

My goal was only to open some VERY CLOSED, VERY-RIDICULING, IGNORANT EYES as to what's out there RE Ozone Therapy.

Unfortunately, the LOUDER Goal Here seems to say:
"Listen Only to ME!!! 
I'm the Brilliant One here!!
Don't read anything for yourself!!!!   
Keep your eyes closed and pay attention Only to ME!!"


Gladly responding to the serious, respectful inquiry,
Individual experimentation similar to that RE Ozone is also being conducted using dirt-cheap hydrogen peroxide, although it's clearly harsher on tissue, but the principle is that same: to kill things that don't belong in the human body and oxygenate the area. 

Four years ago, when I didn't know him, my husband's cousin was diagnosed with a cancer and his Dr wanted to immediately schedule Chemo, but he turned his back on that and began some kind of H2O2 protocol he learned from a friend.  Now, four years later, he's never looked back with regret, and never stopped his H2O2 regimen.  As you can imagine, he remains really stoked about H2O2 and was anxious to have me look into it when we met at my sister-in-laws birthday.  I assured him that I had already read similar glowing results, and that his testimony just bolstered the validity.

Regarding Iodine, I haven't read a thing about that and have no opinion but the following:

ANYTHING, any technology, any substance can be used irresponsibly.  How many simple, over-the-counter products include no Warnings, no Cautions, no Notes, or no Contraindications, etc.?

Accordingly, negative results from Nay-Sayers prove nothing to me and others seeking The Truth;

Only results from people Wanting to Solve Problems, determined to Successfully-Treat Patients, Intent on Improve the Quality of Their Lives --and uncovering The Truth-- has any meaning to Real Scientists and unbiased human-beings.

Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 29/12/2018 22:50:37
Regarding: Read the articles, and see what they say--that is what is worth discussing.

I totally agree and have been advising everyone to look into All the articles, not just look for the ones that "evidence" nothing notable.    As I indicated, anything can be applied incorrectly, either Deliberately, Negligently or flat-out Ignorantly.

but some have repeatedly, hostilely undermined my attempts to make readers aware that such documentation on Ozone Therapy Exists and is worthy of their review.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/12/2018 13:25:51
I've personally witnessed what would have sounded like a miracle to me, if I hadn't seen it for myself.
Data is not  the plural of anecdote.

It is my belief that the only reason the NIH is amassing these studies on Ozone Therapy (since they aren't amassing studies on Snake-Oil)
I quoted the report that had amassed about snake oil (well, strictly speaking about vaccinations and autism- but it's just as scientifically valid as snake oil)

So, while you say the NIH don't cite papers about dross, it turns out that they do.
You are simply wrong.


Please go back to studying .
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 30/12/2018 17:34:13
Boring continues to prove my point about this Troll-Empowering site. 

So, Thank You, Boring,
Oh-Insulting, Uneducated, Unenlightened-One!!

I Persist: 
Read everything you can,
ignore the Know-Nothings that Degrade all Documentation available, and
Seek First-Hand Experience!


The father of a woman, disabled from the MS, decided he could no longer stand to see his daughter suffer and sprang for the cost of the IV-treatments.  She said she felt "better" almost from the start.  After a few months, she felt GOOD!  Then her MD informed her that if she continued to remain symptom-free, he could no longer report to the government that she was disabled, meaning her disability would Stop.  A grown woman, fully-accustomed, programmed, to living the life of a fully disabled citizen, the MS patient stopped treatment altogether, which at that time were merely once a month, maintenance-IVs, and her disabling symptoms returned.

Boring says "Go back to studying",
Ironically though, he UNDERMINES EVERYTHING indicative of Ozone Validity
by Responsible Practitioners who Want to Improve the Quality of Patient's Lives.

To all who actually Care about The Truth,
keep your eyes, your ears, your mind open.

Read all you can; talk to all with Hands-On Experience.

Ignore the Know-Nothings who Pretend to Know All, especially the Hostile, Snarky Ones. 
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 30/12/2018 19:31:41
Ignore the Know-Nothings who Pretend to Know All, especially the Hostile, Snarky Ones. 
Also, ignore the know nothings who know nothing.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 30/12/2018 19:34:59
ABSOLUTELY!!

Research for YOURSELF!!!!
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 31/12/2018 12:43:13
ABSOLUTELY!!

Research for YOURSELF!!!!
Indeed.
Start by finding out what the NIH actually does (they provide an index to papers) and what the Cochrane institute does (they actually analyse papers)
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 31/12/2018 16:46:28
Ah, Yes, "[Analyzing] papers".  How Simply Erudite and Unattached.

Yes, by all means:
Forget about papers indicating rare or inexpensive positive findings where both are Sadly Rare,
Forget looking into How Practitioners have been able to Improve the Quality of life,

Yes, Forget about the Patients,
about people who's lives have changed for the far, far better.

Just pay attention to those who excel in Self-Aggrandizement, Officious Banter and Maintaining Status Quo.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 31/12/2018 18:21:05
Forget about papers indicating rare or inexpensive positive findings where both are Sadly Rare,
No
I didn't.
The Cochrane institute won't have.
So why lie?
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 31/12/2018 19:31:25
"Lie"?  The only Lie I see is degrading a technology you know Nothing About.

Witnessing the destructive use of any paper citing negative or negligible outcomes, Especially with everyone Fully-Aware that Any Technology, Any Substance can be misused --either through Ignorance, Negligence, or Pure Sabotage--, I encourage Personal Outreach and Research, rather than succumbing to any pre-sifted, pre-slanted paper/review by the Status Quo.

In the early 90s, my husband's Cardiologist asked if he would like to participate in a study on a new approach to lowering Blood Cholesterol, Statins.  Under the auspices of the Baylor College of Medicine, my husband jumped at the chance.  Within weeks, his health went downhill, and he was removed from the study.  He was NOT documented as a patient reacting badly to the statin, he was simply removed from the study.  As a result of this peculiar, pro-Big Pharma tactic, I was Not surprised that many patients were later prescribed statins, reported feeling bad to their Dr (some unable to walk), yet were insistently-assured that it couldn't possibly be the new medication!  A couple of years later, Drs began to realize: "Yes, yes, it could be the statin; stop taking it". Now different statins, with differing approaches are on the market.

Having witnessed so many amazingly positive results, via various Ozone Therapies, Results which Remarkably have yet to see the light of day despite countless Decades of patients whose lives have been demonstrably, positively transformed; I encourage everyone to set-aside negative or negligible "findings", and get to the Root of any positive ones. 

Verify they Achieved What they Claim, then
Examine what exactly They did to Achieve The Remarkable, Rare and Inexpensively-Attained Benefits,
---rather than let your curiosity be stifled or humiliated by Snarky Paper-Pushers and Nay-Sayers.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: alancalverd on 31/12/2018 20:09:29
The problem with Cochrane, as I pointed out when it was founded, is that its principal methodology is meta-analysis. It is thus a very good indicator of consensus and "safe bets", but not a productive starting point for novel procedures. Newton, Einstein, Becquerel, Curie, Darwin, Fleming, the other Fleming, Kemp, Galileo, Michelson & Morley, Larrey, Laveran, Hall....indeed anyone whose discovery or analysis contradicted the current consensus, would probably not get a mention.

Medical defence often relies on consensus, but before the awful European Union decided that science should be ruled by committee, UK law permitted the experimental evidence of one other practitioner to stand as valid defence, and thus promoted progress. Meta-analysis doesn't help us move forward, but uncritical reporting of the interesting and unexpected, does, and revisiting a simple technique can be very rewarding. Just to take one example: triage was adopted during the Napoleonic Wars but hardly appeared outside the battlefield until the 1980s, when a desperately understaffed  National Health Service introduced it to routine civilian casualty work.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 31/12/2018 22:59:02
God Bless you, Alan, for speaking Truth to Status Quo Power.

In furtherance of your post, we need only recall how long it took for merely the Acceptance of Washing Hands before Attempting Surgery and all the Hostility it's Apostles faced for decades and decades.

The Proof of the Ozone is in the Greatly-Enhanced Quality of the Patients' Lives,
not the fact that anything can be applied inappropriately and even dangerously.

Thanks Again, Alan
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/01/2019 12:18:26
The problem with Cochrane, as I pointed out when it was founded, is that its principal methodology is meta-analysis.
It is true that the basis of the Cochrane institute's work is studying data- i.e. doing meta-analysis.

The alternative is studying a lack of data.
That's not doing to get you very far.

It is important to realise that the meta analysis will include all the papers that SSAMC has quoted.

But it will also include the ones where no effect (or a deleterious one) was seen.

That's why I'm going to believe it, rather than someone who cherry picks.
In furtherance of your post, we need only recall how long it took for merely the Acceptance of Washing Hands before Attempting Surgery and all the Hostility it's Apostles faced for decades and decades.
OK, Let's recall that (and lots like it); they are the reason why modern medicine is evidence based.
They are the reason why we know to ignore one person saying "Well, it worked once" in favour of a properly controlled trial.

SSAMC, they are the reason we should ignore you
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 01/01/2019 12:24:41
Medical defence often relies on consensus, but before the awful European Union decided that science should be ruled by committee, UK law permitted the experimental evidence of one other practitioner to stand as valid defence, and thus promoted progress.
.

UK law still does.
Stop trying to pretend that the EU is a bogeyman.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 01/01/2019 18:57:15
How about we start the New Year Looking for Solutions to Real World Problems?

Cease looking for excuses to denigrate anyone who points out
The Bleed-in Obvious:  Status Quo Arrogantly, Officiously, Hostilely Stifles all Else

Especially when Status Quo is protecting the Income of the Wealthy.

The Adoption of Ozone Therapy would be
a Devastating Threat to the Income Antibiotic Manufacturers.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 05/01/2019 13:09:48
How about we start the New Year Looking for Solutions to Real World Problems?
OK
One problem we might hope to solve is that some people do not recognise the difference between anecdotes and properly conducted trials.
We can help solve this problem if you learn that difference.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 06/01/2019 01:08:19
You're nothing more than an Insulting, Pompous ASS,
who doesn't give a S--t about Real World Results.

Please, Stay in your Ivory Tower,
Read your Filtered, Censored "Scientific" papers and
Remain as Angry, As Insulting, As Hostile, and --Most Importantly--
As Uneducated, Inexperienced, &  Blissfully-Ignorant


as you Clearly Enjoy being.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/01/2019 10:26:52
You're nothing more than an Insulting, Pompous ASS,
who doesn't give a S--t about Real World Results.

Please, Stay in your Ivory Tower,
Read your Filtered, Censored "Scientific" papers and
Remain as Angry, As Insulting, As Hostile, and --Most Importantly--
As Uneducated, Inexperienced, &  Blissfully-Ignorant


as you Clearly Enjoy being.
Calling me uneducated, while refusing to learn the difference between a properly conducted trial and an anecdote is ratehr ironic.

Why don't you learn some science?
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 06/01/2019 18:58:45
"Calling me uneducated, while refusing to learn the difference between a properly conducted trial and an anecdote is ratehr ironic."

Everyone with a modicum of Intelligence Knows the Difference, Boring.

But everyone Brighter than that Knows:

Real World, IMPRESSIVELY POSITIVE, AND OTHERWISE RARE RESULTS
should never be ignored, berated or shoved under the rug.

They should be Verified, then Attempted to Duplicate.

Saving Legs and Lives is Worth this Effort.

If you were a human being, Boring, you would understand this simple fact.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/01/2019 19:36:43
Real World, IMPRESSIVELY POSITIVE, AND OTHERWISE RARE RESULTS
should never be ignored, berated or shoved under the rug.

You do know that the sort of meta analysis which places like the Cohcrane institute undertake, includes those results too, don't you?

If you were a human being, Boring,
Damn! You rumbled me.
How did you work out that I'm a Martian?

Just kidding- it's just you being wrong again.
Everyone with a modicum of Intelligence Knows the Difference, Boring
You do a poor job of displaying intelligence by getting my name wrong.
It doesn't matter if it's deliberate or not.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 06/01/2019 20:03:54
Only an Internet Troll would consider it
unreasonable, unscientific to talk to actual patients.

Bye, Bye, BORING.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/01/2019 20:08:10
Only an Internet Troll would consider it
unreasonable, unscientific to talk to actual patients.
Was anyone doing that, or is it just some dross yo made up?
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 06/01/2019 20:12:41
Personally Talking to Patients would be gathering Anecdotal EVIDENCE, which

you, yourself have REPEATEDLY DEGRADED.

Get a Grip.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/01/2019 20:30:24
Personally Talking to Patients would be gathering Anecdotal EVIDENCE, which

you, yourself have REPEATEDLY DEGRADED.

Get a Grip.
Collecting and collating that data is what a scientist would do.
It's what the meta analysis does.
Do you not realise that?
The thing you get ALL SHOUTY ABOUT is already done.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 06/01/2019 21:07:31
"already done"?

If it were, we'd all be learning how to effectively use Ozone to Improve the Quality of Life,

rather than arrogantly insisting that only The Cockrane Library can be trusted.

Is that who sponsors this site?
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/01/2019 21:33:12
If it were, we'd all be learning how to effectively use Ozone to Improve the Quality of Life,
Unless...
it was done and we found that it doesn't really work.
Sure, sometimes "treatment" is followed by improvement, and sometimes it's followed by a worsening of the condition.
And, of course, sometimes improvement happens without ozone. A proper trial lets you find out how often those happen.

If you only listen to anecdotes, you don't get to find that out.

So, you might be advocating a process that's gravely harmful on the basis that "it seemed to work once".

Is that responsible of you?



Is that who sponsors this site?
No.
Learn to read.
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/about/our-sponsors


rather than arrogantly insisting that only The Cockrane Library can be trusted.
Nobody said that- it's just trash you made up.
Why do you invent nonsense like that?
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 06/01/2019 21:54:55
From the moment I began posting,
YOU began undermining me.

Yet, all I've been saying is Verify Assertions,
Learn how to duplicate results.

You write:

"Unless...
it was done and we found that it doesn't really work."

PROVE IT.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/01/2019 22:00:22
From the moment I began posting,
YOU began undermining me.
That's because you keep making up trash.
"Unless...
it was done and we found that it doesn't really work."

PROVE IT.
I don't have to prove something which is explicitly conditional.

However, here's the proof that the comparison has been made, at least in regard to one condition.
https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cca/doi/10.1002/cca.1111/full
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 06/01/2019 22:12:59
I've made nothing up.
You want my words ignored, but That’s Rich.

I encourage all to open their eyes, ears, minds and seek out everything with positive findings RE Ozone Therapy.  Why?

Because the Touted Benefits Are WORTH it: INEXPENSIVELY, EFFECTIVELY Killing Infections,
while not compromising the system’s organs.

Whereas Boring posts Only to urge readers to feel foolish for just asking about Ozone, even in Dentistry where it is now not uncommon, often relied upon because Ozone INEXPENSIVELY, EFFECTIVELY Kills lifeforms that do not belong in the human body, without the Wear & Tear too often seen with patients whose infections do not retreat.

No, no, no; Boring’s every move has been
to Hurd the Trusting Sheep,

to funnel readers into —at most— reviewing only Status Quo publications, referring to the documents that report positive findings as “cherry-picking”,

Wholly-IGNORANT to the fact that REAL WORLD SOLUTIONS are worthy of ferreting-out, of validating the veracity, of attempting to duplicate the remarkable IMPROVEMENT in the QUALITY of the PATIENTS’ LIVES.

I feel sorry for All who think Real Scientists denounce everything “new”, or
 anything that “fails” to provide benefits 100% of the time,

even in the hands of uneducated, unskilled, or even malicious baboons.

Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 06/01/2019 22:40:11
I've made nothing up.
You made up the bit about only the Cochrane institute being trusted.
and you made up this bit
"Only an Internet Troll would consider it
unreasonable, unscientific to talk to actual patients."
because nobody was actually doing or saying that.
Whereas Boring posts Only to urge readers to feel foolish for just asking about Ozone,
No
I'm posting that it's foolish not to look at both sides.
So, once again that's something you made up.
People have looked- they have done meta analyses- those analyses show little if any benefit.
referring to the documents that report positive findings as “cherry-picking”,
No.
I referred to cherry picking as cherry picking.
So, once again that's something you made up.
I feel sorry for All who think Real Scientists denounce everything “new”, or
 anything that “fails” to provide benefits 100% of the time,
Nobody said or did that so...
 once again that's something you made up.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: SSAMC on 06/01/2019 23:03:16
Blah, Blah, Blah; Blah, Blah.

Tu m'ennuies et
j'ai terminé.

Au revoir et bonne chance.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Bored chemist on 07/01/2019 09:39:34
Good to see you got bored of saying stuff that's not true.
Don't hurry back.
Title: Re: How safe is ozone used in dentistry?
Post by: Kryptid on 07/01/2019 23:34:31
SSAMC, you seem to be overreacting.

Bored Chemist is not trying to suppress anything nor is he saying that studies about the health effects of ozone should not be done. He's merely asserting how a proper scientific trial should be performed. It's something that all forms of medical treatment should go through before being widely applied.

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