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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2920 on: 24/03/2023 07:29:22 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 20/03/2023 05:32:36
Your criteria are based on feelings and emotions, which are known to be deceiving sometimes.
Taken for granted, feeling or emotion based actions, or instinctive actions, are usually better than just random actions. We don't just randomly stop breathing, or stop eating,
or just jump off the cliff, or punch strangers in the face.
But rational actions based on longer term goals and adequately accurate knowledge of causality can often give even better results.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2921 on: 24/03/2023 07:35:51 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/03/2023 06:02:44
On what other basis should you judge all men equally?
Based on whatever it takes to achieve the longest term goals. What do you think presidential/royal pardon were created for?
They were necessary for reconciliation after violent conflicts like civil war.
« Last Edit: 24/03/2023 09:10:53 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2922 on: 24/03/2023 16:33:57 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 24/03/2023 07:35:51
What do you think presidential/royal pardon were created for?
For the greater glory of presidents and kings. Never assume a benificent motive.

Reconciliation is achieved by rapid judicial process followed by a few public hangings, and a slow replacement of politics by trade. Gradually, the human race is beginning to understand that you don't make much profit by declaring war on your customers.
« Last Edit: 24/03/2023 16:40:04 by alancalverd »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2923 on: 25/03/2023 13:34:44 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/03/2023 16:33:57
Never assume a benificent motive.
Why not?
There must be some considerations why Japanese Emperor wasn't executed after WWII, or Gen. Lee after American civil war.
« Last Edit: 25/03/2023 13:37:57 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2924 on: 25/03/2023 13:37:20 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/03/2023 16:33:57
Reconciliation is achieved by rapid judicial process followed by a few public hangings, and a slow replacement of politics by trade. Gradually, the human race is beginning to understand that you don't make much profit by declaring war on your customers.
That could be true if your side can win the war within acceptable costs and risks.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2925 on: 25/03/2023 14:15:13 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 25/03/2023 13:34:44
There must be some considerations why Japanese Emperor wasn't executed after WWII, or Gen. Lee after American civil war.
It's always good to appear magnanimous in victory, however many people you killed to get there. Some backward people think that having the president pardon one turkey justifies killing all the others.

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2926 on: 26/03/2023 11:03:04 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 25/03/2023 14:15:13
It's always good to appear magnanimous in victory, however many people you killed to get there.
It's always good to know that appearance might be deceiving. Many battles were won by deceiving the enemies.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2927 on: 26/03/2023 13:10:30 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 24/03/2023 07:29:22
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 20/03/2023 05:32:36
Your criteria are based on feelings and emotions, which are known to be deceiving sometimes.
Taken for granted, feeling or emotion based actions, or instinctive actions, are usually better than just random actions. We don't just randomly stop breathing, or stop eating,
or just jump off the cliff, or punch strangers in the face.
But rational actions based on longer term goals and adequately accurate knowledge of causality can often give even better results.
Emotional based rules can be easily followed by simple minded individuals, including children. But they are lacking in consistency, which makes them inappropriate to be the standard.
Consistent standards can only be achieved through long term goals. Applying them requires adequately complex thinking capacity. Sometimes, the right decision must be made against emotions,  which takes some level of maturity and wisdom.
« Last Edit: 26/03/2023 13:21:01 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2928 on: 26/03/2023 14:00:54 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 26/03/2023 13:10:30
Consistent standards can only be achieved through long term goals.
No. Just state your standards, make sure they aren't mutually contradictory,  and stick to them.

Worth considering Chichester's Deliberate Error Navigation system. If you aim a small boat directly from Plymouth to New York you will probably miss your target and have no idea which way to turn to reach it. But if you deliberately aim a bit south of NY you will certainly reach land, at which point you turn north until you get there.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2929 on: 26/03/2023 14:20:49 »
It's also important to discuss the differences between moral rules and other kinds of rules, such as rules of games, technical rules, economic rules, political rules, etc. Game rules are usually created to make the games more interesting, less boring, less dangerous, which would make the games be played more and watched by more people. In football, there are rules for off side, hand ball, and back pass. In MMA, there are time limit, weight class, and prohibition of some techniques such as headbuttheadbutt and low blow.

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2930 on: 26/03/2023 14:36:53 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 26/03/2023 14:00:54
No. Just state your standards, make sure they aren't mutually contradictory,  and stick to them.
If you only have one statement, you won't get mutual contradiction. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you get a good standard.
« Last Edit: 26/03/2023 14:42:37 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2931 on: 26/03/2023 15:21:33 »
In all walks of life, a good standard is one that can be widely adopted and makes people safe and happy. Some people are perverse, so the best we can hope for is to satisfy a majority.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2932 on: 27/03/2023 03:22:19 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/03/2023 06:02:44
On what other basis should you judge all men equally?
Any request to treat some individuals unequally must be based on some criteria that makes them different than the rest of us. They can be classified as extraordinary claims.
Quote
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” was a phrase made popular by Carl Sagan who reworded Laplace's principle, which says that “the weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness” (Gillispie et al., 1999).
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2933 on: 27/03/2023 03:49:10 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 26/03/2023 15:21:33
In all walks of life, a good standard is one that can be widely adopted and makes people safe and happy. Some people are perverse, so the best we can hope for is to satisfy a majority.
What was once majority can turn into minority in some other time.
In most ancient populations, and some current populations, the majority do some immoral things by some modern moral standards.

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2934 on: 27/03/2023 08:22:33 »
I'm not sure about Laplace/Sagan. The claims that the earth orbits the sun, or that all objects fall at the same rate under gravity, would be considered extraordinary at the time they were made, but they were supported by exactly the same, very ordinary, evidence as the current consensus.

This has very little to do with morality and criminality in a civilised country, where certain behaviors are proscribed regardless of who does them.  Time was that the British public hangman was always tried in absentia and found guilty of murder, and his fee was "lost" rather than paid through the treasury accounts. It is symptomatic of a regression to barbarism that anyone can be exempt on the grounds that he is a president or Tory member of parliament.
« Last Edit: 27/03/2023 08:28:53 by alancalverd »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2935 on: 27/03/2023 08:27:39 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 27/03/2023 03:49:10
What was once majority can turn into minority in some other time.
So there can be no universal standard, according to classical physics,since simultaneous observation reveals variations across time and space. Relativistic physics allows for evolution limited by the rate of propagation of morality, but the notion of an ultimate moral code remains undefined.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2936 on: 28/03/2023 09:31:19 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 27/03/2023 08:27:39
So there can be no universal standard
The failure of your proposed idea doesn't mean that no one else can come up with a better idea.
Have you heard about moral Zeitgeist?
The more information we have about how the world works can get us closer to the universal moral standard.
« Last Edit: 28/03/2023 09:54:47 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2937 on: 28/03/2023 09:36:15 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 27/03/2023 08:22:33
I'm not sure about Laplace/Sagan. The claims that the earth orbits the sun, or that all objects fall at the same rate under gravity, would be considered extraordinary at the time they were made, but they were supported by exactly the same, very ordinary, evidence as the current consensus.
Satellite images were extraordinary back then, but not now.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2938 on: 28/03/2023 09:46:11 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 27/03/2023 08:22:33
certain behaviors are proscribed regardless of who does them. 
We can morally evaluate a behavior independently from who does it. But we can't react to it indifferently.
If a little kid shoots someone, we don't treat them like they're an adult.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2939 on: 28/03/2023 16:00:09 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/03/2023 09:31:19
The more information we have about how the world works can get us closer to the universal moral standard.
Or Narnia, or Eldorado. Travelling in a straight line, or indeed along any path, doesn't imply the existence of a destination.
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