Naked Science Forum
Non Life Sciences => Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology => Topic started by: blurrsequence on 13/07/2006 00:12:23
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Ive been reading alot about Cymatics lately and it drives me nuts how similar they are to the way any galaxy looks and moves. I understand that the waves commonly found echoing around in space do not effect particles the same way that sound waves do here on earth. Im a first time poster and just curious about what the general view about cymatics and other waves being tied together with the universe.
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Welcome blurrsequence , welcome to the forum.
I was about to start writing a fifty thousand word post to answer you, but then realised I do not have any clue what Cymatics is all about !!..though Wiki has a little bit about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cymatics and so, with ebullient ignorance I will stand down and just wish your stay here to be fruitful and forthcoming.
Posts can be slow to manifest here so please grace us with some patience and I am sure an interesting discussion will ensue.
Men are the same as women, just inside out !
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quote:
Originally posted by neilep
I do not have any clue what Cymatics is all about !!..though Wiki has a little bit about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cymatics
You have seen Cymatic type images before Neil:-
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi24.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc23%2FSUEDONIM%2Fcoffeemystery.jpg&hash=df7f3ebb6c6cf38a8cf840d88722c4a0)
This is a cup of coffee vibrating near a normal mode frequency, approx 20Hz.
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Waves in space are usually shock waves rather than sound waves.
Nonetheless, it is believed that those shock waves do have an impact on start formation from gas clouds, and this includes star formation in the spiral arms of galaxies.
Could the dynamics of waves tell us something about other cosmic processes. I am not qualified to answer this, but I can well imagine it might be so. If you look at a flow of traffic along a congested road, you will see waves moving through that traffic, so one can imagine there may be situations where the gravitational pull between cosmic objects might similarly create wave motions.
George
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quote:
Originally posted by another_someone
Waves in space are usually shock waves rather than sound waves.
Nonetheless, it is believed that those shock waves do have an impact on start formation from gas clouds, and this includes star formation in the spiral arms of galaxies.
Could the dynamics of waves tell us something about other cosmic processes. I am not qualified to answer this, but I can well imagine it might be so. If you look at a flow of traffic along a congested road, you will see waves moving through that traffic, so one can imagine there may be situations where the gravitational pull between cosmic objects might similarly create wave motions.
George
In the New Theories section I suggeted that waves in the protoplanetary disc are resposible for the position of the planets in the solar system, (Titus-Bode "Law"), where the orbits are nodes similar to those on a Chladni disc:-
(https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi24.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc23%2FSUEDONIM%2Fchladnidisc.gif&hash=b0b4e52c4ad39d793dab888ca024ff27)
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Thank you neil for the welcome, and its no worries about the time it takes to recieve responses or answers, my questions dont appear in text books or google so i am very willing to wait as long as it takes.
Thank you Another_someone, you kind of cleaned up my question, i was just in a hurry and wanted to throw up my question before i had to leave the state. My idea was that resonating waves (could be on a whole different level than sound waves) control whatever term scientists want to call this "liquid universe" theory. I am in no ways well read in science, but i would like to think that everything is tied together, and rays and waves all seem to be so similar to me and seem to be tied together with everything anyway.
Sooner or later i will try to upload clips from some documentaries i stumbled upon, the scientist doing them believed cymatics could be used for human health purposes but none the less he did some great documentary work on many particles and frequencies.
One thing he showed was a pattern made up of seemingly pulsing veins when introduced with two different frequencies each playing one after another. Another he showed was a huge plate of galaxy shaped patterns in which particles flowed from one spinning vortex to another.
Impressive science, also one of the more beautiful ones.
also, if you are interested, here is basically the only video i can find hosted heh
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oh yes also forgot to ask you Another_Someone, Sound waves in space have no sound, but does that mean they dont happen, or is it just considered something like a shock wave?
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In space their are only radio waves, sound waves cant exist as there's no medium for them to travel through, unless you happen to be in the middle of a big explosion full of expanding gas , [:)]
Michael
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But whos to say they dont happen because we cant see anything for them to effect? The waves would just suddenly stop if it runs out of detectable matter to pass through?
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Firstly, there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum – if there was, new stars could never be formed.
It is true that you cannot have true sound waves, because the gas is too thin, and so the speed of sound would be so low, that pretty much everything passing through the medium would be faster than sound, but you certainly can get shock waves, and you do get shock waves, passing through the interstellar gas. The shock waves through the interstellar gas help coalesce the gas to form new stars.
Beyond that, as I said above, even just solid lumps of rock, if they are able to exert gravitational forces on each other (and all matter has a gravitational effect on other matter) could produce waves of force passing between them. To what degree this happens, or how it manifests itself (most likely I could imagine it having an effect on the orbits of the asteroids around the Sun) I am not sure.
George
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14Hz ... makes a hexagram. The note C (amongst others) generates a perfect hexagram
"cymatic patterns (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Drum_vibration_animations)" are not just dependent on frequency, the also depend on the medium which is vibrating and its dimensions, (and are not limited to hexagonal symmetry ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=Bs3uPbhIZxc )
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"Cymatics" are not just dependent on frequency, the also depend on the medium which is vibrating and its dimensions, (and are not limited to hexagonal symmetry) ...
I never said anything about them being limited to hexagonal symmetry. In fact my next sentence (after the one you quoted) mentions pentagonal, four-sided etc....
And if you understand the angles of viewability of the platonic solids, you'll know they can each be viewed in a hexagonal/triangular, or square orientation. Same goes for the dodecahedron, which can be viewed from a pentagonal, or triangular/hexagonal orientation.
Spheres tend to pack in tetrahedral (essentially hexagonal) arrays... they can also pack in square arrays. But the cube-octahedron as 13 spheres shows how they best do both. That's why Bucky called it the "vector equilibrium". And it is also what is behind many symbolic references to 13 in ancient texts.
EDIT:
Also forgot to address what you said about medium and dimension.
Some of the most famous Schlieren photographs, (some of which are Hans Jenny's) that come up when you search Cymatics, are of the note C on it's own with only air as the medium. No container, no dimensions. Just a pressure wave travelling through air, out of a transducer.
It's hexagonal. And that's what the "7 days of creation" in Genesis refers to. 6 days of work, 1 day of rest. That is the hexagram. It has 6 triangles, (days of work) around the day of rest, which is the hexagon in the center. They are also talking about the expansion from nothingness, into the 6 directions of space (N,S,E,W + Up & Down). One cannot deny that the physical universe is organized into basically a hexagonal framework.
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Going back to the original question wave motions exist in galaxies but they are not normal sound waves. They are waves associated with the lives of stars and the interactions of gravitating lumps. Not this can include lumps of dark matter as well as visible galaxies.
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... to address what you said about medium and dimension.
Some of the most famous Schlieren photographs, (some of which are Hans Jenny's) that come up when you search Cymatics, are of the note C on it's own with only air as the medium. No container, no dimensions. Just a pressure wave travelling through air, out of a transducer.
the idea that there is a magical frequency at which air resonates, independent of any other parameters, (e.g. dimensions of the system, air-pressure , temperature (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Speed_of_sound#Implications_for_atmospheric_acoustics), composition of air*) is nonsense.
The phenomenon observed in cymatic patterns are standing waves (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Standing_wave) and normal modes (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Normal_mode): Nothing supernatural.
(* e.g. humidity)
[same goes for water: its properties are temperature dependent ... http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/latest-questions/question/2584/ ]
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Haha... "supernatural"?
Again you are putting words in my mouth. Did I say "supernatural"?
Did I say anything about air containing "frequencies"??? Or that they are "magical"?
You consider what you don't understand to be magic? Then it's you who is bringing religion into this discussion.
I said there was a "TRANSDUCER"... that is what is emitting SOUND FREQUENCIES INTO THE AIR.
If you knew what a transducer is, you would know that... and if you know so much about Cymatics, you would know what a transducer is.
I should've known better than to try and talk to you guys here about anything "deep".. quick to judge & slow to understand is the way of "science" these days.
Have fun with your mundane experiment RD.
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Going back to the original question wave motions exist in galaxies but they are not normal sound waves. They are waves associated with the lives of stars and the interactions of gravitating lumps. Not this can include lumps of dark matter as well as visible galaxies.
Cymatics is not just the study of "sound" waves. It is the study of WAVE PHENOMENA.. I tried to say this about 3 times already, so out come the CAPS.
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Did I say "supernatural"?
You mentioned two religious texts to support your argument, (a rather unwise strategy in a science forum).
Did I say anything about air containing "frequencies"?
You claimed hexagonal cymatic patterns occur in air at “14Hz” and at “C” (middle C is 440Hz), regardless of any other parameters, which is not true, e.g. even in a system which was resonating at 440Hz would go out of tune if the temperature changed, e.g. ...
Pipe organs can go out of tune with weather changes. The organ is most susceptible to temperature changes which causes the pipes to expand or contract.
http://www.ibiblio.org/pipeorgan/Pages/MorePipeInfo.html
Have fun with your mundane experiment RD.
out come the CAPS.
Evidence provided by experiment is how a hypothesis is proved (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Scientific_method), not by who shouts (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/All_caps#Computing) the loudest.
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You mentioned two religious texts to support your argument, (a rather unwise strategy in a science forum).
I mentioned Kabbalah and Enneagram, neither of which are "religious", "texts", nor "religious texts".
The mention of something, can be for correlation, as much as for "support of an argument".
I was not using those correlations as support for any argument...
If you do not see hexagons and hexagrams in nature, then you are not a scientist, nor a "skeptic", that would qualify you as a dogmatic pattern denier.
You claimed hexagonal cymatic patterns occur in air at “14Hz” and at “C” (middle C is 440Hz), regardless of any other parameters, which is not true, e.g. even in a system which was resonating at 440Hz would go out of tune if the temperature changed, e.g. ...
No, middle C is NOT 440Hz, A is 440Hz. [???]
And I said nothing about 14Hz in air, that was in water.
I'm sorry for you that you have never heard of Schlieren Photography, because your ignorance of it shows that your knowledge of Cymatics is limited to YouTube videos and Wiki.
Schlieren photo in a Cymatics experiment uses a speaker (transducer) a camera, and a light source.
The speaker emits the sound, which creates a pressure wave in the air. There is no container, (no "dimension") other than that of the speaker, and the size of the room, which have both been shown to be irrelevant to the shapes produced.
Do you ever see square or pentagonal snowflakes?
I'm not trying to have a religious discussion, I'm trying to dispell religious translations of ancient systems, which were entirely scientific and NOT SUPERNATURAL in nature.
To even say the word "super" in front of "natural" creates a paradox, because there is no such thing as anything outside of what is. If it happens, it is natural.
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Algae-Eater
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