Naked Science Forum
General Discussion & Feedback => Just Chat! => Topic started by: Recrudesce on 17/03/2018 09:42:18
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As we know more about the body and how it works, could a mistake have been made ? could Jesus have lapsed into a coma, after suffering horrendous brutality, then when rested for a day or two, legged it on the advice of his friends, who covered for him by telling the priests, "he was taken up ". hence giving Jesus time to to nip out of the country as someone else ???
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Give or take the lack of evidence for any single "Jesus" in the first place, it's as plausible a story as any.
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JC would need a claw-hammer before he could leg it ...
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fkristinakillgrove%2Ffiles%2F2015%2F12%2Fcrucifixion-Zias-needpermission.jpg)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/12/08/this-bone-provides-the-only-skeletal-evidence-for-crucifixion-in-the-ancient-world/#3ca58d87476d (https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/12/08/this-bone-provides-the-only-skeletal-evidence-for-crucifixion-in-the-ancient-world/#3ca58d87476d)
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Obviously, he legged it after he was taken down from the cross, but, given a couple of days to rest in a cool place, could he have come out of the coma and thought "me" im lucky to be alive, better go see the lads and have a beer and a last bit of supper, ( see where im going with this ? ) then quietly slipped away, taking Mary M, and a fast donkey out of the province, and spreading the culture of hair and beards to the west coast of the Americas.
Understanding the physiology of the body a bit better these days, could he have appeared to "die", then come back to life, never going to know for sure, but boy did he start something !
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It is difficult to sort myth from evidence but it seems that he was not on the cross very long and as Christians always go on about his pieced hands so he must have had support as he could have been hanging by his arms.
The myth makers have added the bit about the stabbing to make out he was dead.
It seems that his feet could not have been nailed to the cross as he was reported to be walking three days later.
As those who did conducted the cruxifiction did not take much care for hygene I think he died about three months later from blood poisining as his supporters secretly buried him.
The reasons for his cruxification are rather a puzzle he had upset the religious authorities so he was condemed for blasphemy and would normally have been stoned to death did they want him comdemed as a terroist and killed by the civil authorities as he had a lot of popular support ?
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In any society the elites will try to prevent two things from happening. The first is the education of the masses to a level comparable to their own. The second is strong communities within the general populace. If a personality comes along that tries to cause one of these two 'problems' to happen then they are usually eliminated.
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Did Jesus die on the cross? It's a fairly efficient way of torturing people to death in a few hours at most, though it's mostly done nowadays by stress hanging - less carpentry involved than in a public spectacle.
The whole story is a bit weird. Whilst nailing a carpenter to a cross has a certain irony, crucifixion was a Roman tradition, not a Jewish one, and occupying powers don't generally leave the execution of a revolutionary folk hero to the natives, nor encourage their soldiers to attend executions ordered by the locals.
Another neat bit of irony by the Roman authorities: Offered the choice of releasing one prisoner, the crowd apparently yelled "Bar Abbas" - the Son of the Father, and they got some scumbag called Barabbas instead.
The resurrection is obvious bunkum. If you can move a stone from A to B, you can move it from B to A by muscle, not magic. Why would anyone set a guard over a tomb unless there was a strong likelihood that someone would break in and steal a body? Even if the body evaporated by magic, how come the guard never saw the stone move from B to A? And if it was magic, why move the stone at all?
The real mystery of human stupidity is how the death of one rabbi became a pretext for the murder of untold hundreds more, and their congregations, long after the Roman empire collapsed..
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The christian elites did have an uneducated and superstitious populace that they could manipulate and threaten into becoming murderous crusaders.
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People witnessed Jesus being crucified two millennia ago and thus had a different understanding of life and death than we do now. The OP made this point and it was a good one.
A good movie which tells an interesting story which I recommend watching is The Man from Earth which is online for free at: https://123movieshub.to/film/the-man-from-earth-10773/
It tells the story of an immortal man who identifies himself as many well-know figures in history, including Jesus. In the movie he said that he didn't die on the cross but through his studies with the Buddha he was able to change his life signs so that he appeared to be dead. A similar thing could have happened with Jesus. He might have actually died for a few short minutes but the jostling of his body buy those taking him down could have revived him but no to the point of being notable to others.
There's also a story in the bible where a child is brought back to life from a (cold state as I recall) when a man covered the boys body with his and breathed into him. This is basically what it means to resuscitate a person who died.
I know about this event because I keep an open mind and as such read the Bible cover to cover twice. Had I not then I'd never have known about this important piece of information which is of historical significance.
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I notice that artists that depict "Christ being taken down from the cross" never pay much attention to removing the nails which would require special tools in the case of criminals or terrorists this would not be a problem a they would simply be left to rot or the limbs lopped of but when a resurrection is contemplated too much damage should not be done.
Although Christ was addressed as rabbi by his supporters I do not believe he had any formal religious education and was simply a lay preacher inspired by John the Baptist
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A special memory from my schooldays. The Reverend J Leo Kay taught us maths, cricket and scripture. One morning I asked him why, there being on record at least seventeen crucified saviour gods born of virgins, he only taught us about one. He said "I'm only paid to teach you about one". There may be other honest priests about, but I've not met many who could match that.
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The Romans were pretty well practised at killing people, both on and off the battlefield.
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Although Christ was addressed as rabbi by his supporters I do not believe he had any formal religious education and was simply a lay preacher inspired by John the Baptist
One aspect of Judaism that irritates dictators is the inherent resilience of a community where authority and key rituals are distributed to family level: the synagogue is more a place of study than worship, literacy is the norm, and argument and dissent are admired rather than suppressed. "Rabbi" means teacher more than anything, and ordination is considered "usual" rather than essential, so formal training is less important than local recognition of wisdom and judgement.
The resultant factionalism was nicely mocked in The Life of Brian, but after 6000 years of persecution, a regular toast is "we're still here".
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The Romans were pretty well practised at killing people, both on and off the battlefield.
Which is another way of saying it only needs a 0.0001% failure rate for some lucky soul to survive.
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In the Philippines religious nutters are great ones for getting themselves crucified I think the death rate is very low.
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Although Christ was addressed as rabbi by his supporters I do not believe he had any formal religious education and was simply a lay preacher inspired by John the Baptist
In those days a rabbit learned from his master. But all Jews were expected to know scripture and as such Jesus parents and local rabbis taught him the scripture. However its recorded that when Jesus spoke in Synagogues and elsewhere all were amazed. E.g.
Not until halfway through the festival did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach. The Jews there were amazed and asked, “How did this man get such learning without having been taught?” Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me." John 7:14-16 NASB
Comments like this make me challenge the claim that Jesus was God in the flesh.
Whether this is all true depend on your belief system. If you're a Christian then its true. If you're an atheist then its false. If you're Pmb then you say "I dunno!" :D
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You know how in mainland Europe it is common for people to be buried in graves temporary (usually some years) and then, to make way for the recently deceased, the bodies are dug up and replaced? The logic is that after 15 or 20 or so years the dead person's survivors will likely stop visiting their grave to pay respects, especially if that person was not someone of importance. This happened in Jesus's day, but to a much shorter extent. Bodies were placed in caves for a little bit, sometimes just a few days, and people would come to pay respects and so on and so forth. Recent research shows that bodies were commonly removed from their cave crypts after a few days and placed somewhere less showy. (Think of the stench of the unembalmed bodies). Maybe that is what happened to his body? Assuming Jesus was in fact a real person. While alive Jesus would not have been anywhere near as famous as he became in "death", therefore his body would have been treated like any other person's. I think in those times (in the both East and West) 99.9% of bodies were burned a few days after their funerary services.
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Recent research shows that bodies were commonly removed from their cave crypts after a few days and placed somewhere less showy.
No. The Pharisees went to Pilate and requested the tomb be secured until the third day because Jesus said he'd rise from the dead. So Pilate gave them guards. Jesus was resurrected on the dawn of the first day and the guards saw him resurrected. Matthew 28: 4 says "And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men." Some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests what happened. Here's how the story goes. From Matthew 27: 62-66
62 The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. 63 “Sir,” they said, “we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ 64 So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first.”
65 “Take a guard,” Pilate answered. “Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how.” 66 So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.
Assuming Jesus was in fact a real person.
There's no real doubt that Jesus was a real person.
While alive Jesus would not have been anywhere near as famous as he became in "death", ...
On the contrary, he was very famous. So famous in fact that the Jewish leaders wanted him dead.
One of my most favorite Einstein quotes is
I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene….No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus.
Hmmmmm .... all those hours studying the Bible and other religious material is paying off. :D
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There's no real doubt that Jesus was a real person.
Guess again.
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Christianity was invented by St Paul (almost certainly a real person) about 30 years after the death of jesus.
There was a Christ supporting movement amongst Jewish believers who were still allowed in the synagogue before Paul codified and separated the supporters of Jesus from the jewish religion proper allowing many pagan elements such as virgin birth and resurrection of the dead to creap in and even the uncircumcised as members.
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Christianity
Christianity was invented by St Paul (almost certainly a real person) about 30 years after the death of jesus.
I disagree. I hold fast and strong in saying that Christ invented Christianity just as Einstein invented Einstein's theory of relativity.
I understand and accept that's what you hold to be true and I've given up on trying to change what people accept as true. What I will say is that your view is not universal and not one accepted by all. Here's an example
https://oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-breck/who-invented-christianity
Paul by no means “invented” Christianity. He received living tradition from those who came before him, who themselves had journeyed with Jesus during his earthly ministry and experienced his glorified presence within their respective communities of faith (see Galatians 1:11-24). Through the dramatic event of his conversion, Paul became a vital link in a chain of Holy Tradition. He became perhaps the most profound and influential interpreter of that Tradition, which, as the entire New Testament canon testifies, and the experience of Christian believers confirms, is grounded directly and unequivocally in the very person of the crucified and risen Christ.
I encourage readers to google it and study these points. There is a lot of info on this point out there.
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one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
Could that imply that the blood had already started to separate into red blood cells and plasma?
See: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+19&version=NIV
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A useful addition to the story to convince believers that Jesus was really dead and miraculously came back to life.
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one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
Could that imply that the blood had already started to separate into red blood cells and plasma?
See: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+19&version=NIV
No. It was fluid buildup around his heart and contained by the pericardium. That's what happens when people are crucified in the way he was.
This was demonstrated a few years back.
See: The Science of Crucifixion - https://www.apu.edu/articles/15657/
The difficulty surrounding exhalation leads to a slow form of suffocation. Carbon dioxide builds up in the blood, resulting in a high level of carbonic acid in the blood. The body responds instinctively, triggering the desire to breathe. At the same time, the heart beats faster to circulate available oxygen. The decreased oxygen (due to the difficulty in exhaling) causes damage to the tissues and the capillaries begin leaking watery fluid from the blood into the tissues. This results in a build-up of fluid around the heart (pericardial effusion) and lungs (pleural effusion).
Ya gotta love science, huh? :)
And some Christians thing science is a bunch of hoo ha
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A useful addition to the story to convince believers that Jesus was really dead and miraculously came back to life.
Not really.
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Has anybody noticed that theists pride themselves on generosity, kindness and charity, and attribute it to their religion whereas atheists say their the same way and don't need religion for it? What they're not saying is that there are no food banks or sources of holiday meals delivered to the needy by non-religious sources or if they exist are few?
Every month I get a slip for groceries and every holiday I get holiday food from a religious source. I'm having trouble finding the atheist food bank. :) [or whatever non-religious charity for such a thing calls itself]
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The Man from Earth which is online for free
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Obviously, he legged it after he was taken down from the cross, but, given a couple of days to rest in a cool place, could he have come out of the coma and thought "me" im lucky to be alive, better go see the lads and have a beer and a last bit of supper, ( see where im going with this ? ) then quietly slipped away, taking Mary M, and a fast donkey out of the province, and spreading the culture of hair and beards to the west coast of the Americas.
Understanding the physiology of the body a bit better these days, could he have appeared to "die", then come back to life, never going to know for sure, but boy did he start something !
Could he have said, "Gee, Herod, I got a little carried away. Nah, I'm not the king of anything. Come on! I was joking! Do I look like a king? LOL.
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Christianity
Christianity was invented by St Paul (almost certainly a real person) about 30 years after the death of jesus.
I disagree. I hold fast and strong in saying that Christ invented Christianity just as Einstein invented Einstein's theory of relativity.
I understand and accept that's what you hold to be true and I've given up on trying to change what people accept as true. What I will say is that your view is not universal and not one accepted by all. Here's an example
https://oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-breck/who-invented-christianity
Paul by no means “invented” Christianity. He received living tradition from those who came before him, who themselves had journeyed with Jesus during his earthly ministry and experienced his glorified presence within their respective communities of faith (see Galatians 1:11-24). Through the dramatic event of his conversion, Paul became a vital link in a chain of Holy Tradition. He became perhaps the most profound and influential interpreter of that Tradition, which, as the entire New Testament canon testifies, and the experience of Christian believers confirms, is grounded directly and unequivocally in the very person of the crucified and risen Christ.
I encourage readers to google it and study these points. There is a lot of info on this point out there.
Say Paul wanted to invent Christianity for the sake of argument. Why would he want to do something like that? What would he hope to get out of it personally? What did John hope to get out of writing First John for that matter? What did the other apostles hope to gain for giving themselves to prayer and teaching? James, the brother of Jesus, who was executed? Money? Fame? Power? Attention? Excitement? Political office? Fancy dinners and red carpet treatment? Women? Front row pew usage in Synagogue guaranteed?
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Say Paul wanted to invent Christianity for the sake of argument. Why would he want to do something like that? What would he hope to get out of it personally?
An opportunity to persecute a wider spectrum of humanity. See also "Pilgrim Fathers".
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Say Paul wanted to invent Christianity for the sake of argument. Why would he want to do something like that? What would he hope to get out of it personally?
An opportunity to persecute a wider spectrum of humanity. See also "Pilgrim Fathers".
Indeed. Which is why, "Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches." guess who? you know your stuff
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guess who?
Well, unless you heard them say it, you are pretty much guessing.
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Alancalverd said: The real mystery of human stupidity is how the death of one rabbi became a pretext for the murder of untold hundreds more, and their congregations, long after the Roman empire collapsed..
GG: Actually it was very clever. The Gentile Christians stole the Jewish Bible and made it their own. Then all that was necessary was to eliminate all the Jews who obviously knew that Jesus did not serve the Jewish God but served the many Gentile Gods who combined to form the Catholic Church and the later many other Churches of Jesus.
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Pmbphy says:
Has anybody noticed that theists pride themselves on generosity, kindness and charity, and attribute it to their religion whereas atheists say their the same way and don't need religion for it? What they're not saying is that there are no food banks or sources of holiday meals delivered to the needy by non-religious sources or if they exist are few?
Every month I get a slip for groceries and every holiday I get holiday food from a religious source. I'm having trouble finding the atheist food bank. :) [or whatever non-religious charity for such a thing calls itself]
GG: Good point. religious people tend to thinking terms of the collective. Everyone is part of the tribe. Therefore everyone is responsible to insure that all members of the tribe are provided for. Atheists are often better at taking care of the Earth itself. Thus they often serve the Father God and not the Sons of God. Who serves God best, the believer or the atheist?
Anyway I always find it difficult to turn down a stranger who says they need money for food or lodging. So I always have a $20 bill to give away. I cannot tell if they want the money for food or drugs. Yet I cannot take a chance so I give them the benefit of the doubt. It is not that often that I am asked. So it does not mean very much for me to be generous. Yet it makes them happy for a little while.
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So I always have a $20 bill to give away. I cannot tell if they want the money for food or drugs.
When I worked in London, which often has homeless people around the terminals, I used to carry food vouchers. Another way is to support the homeless charities and carry their contact details..
However, this is moving someway from the topic, which is not something that can be proved or disproved today.
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Has anybody noticed that theists pride themselves on generosity, kindness and charity,
….and Christians consider pride to be a sin. I'm always happy to support the Salvation Army for the work they do, not the reason they do it.
OXFAM, UNESCO, MSF are not religious organisations. Many of the older charities were founded at a time when it was difficult for any non-Christian to even admit his faith or lack of it, and even Quakers had a hard time because they took an intellectual view of the world. The Red Cross was founded by a businessman, not a priest, but corporate idiocy and superstition demanded that later members of the international organisation could use a non-cruciform symbol.
I'm privileged to live in one of the few civilised countries where the law and civic institutions don't care what you think about the supernatural. As a devout atheist, I can either waste time and money setting up a new atheist charity to make a personal vanity point, or help an existing charity do their thing. The Sally Anne never ask where the money comes from or what you believe in - what matters is how they deploy the cash or time you give them. And their brass band hymn books have all the best tunes, beautifully arranged and pitched.
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Has anybody noticed that theists pride themselves on generosity, kindness and charity,
….and Christians consider pride to be a sin. I'm always happy to support the Salvation Army for the work they do, not the reason they do it.
OXFAM, UNESCO, MSF are not religious organisations. Many of the older charities were founded at a time when it was difficult for any non-Christian to even admit his faith or lack of it, and even Quakers had a hard time because they took an intellectual view of the world. The Red Cross was founded by a businessman, not a priest, but corporate idiocy and superstition demanded that later members of the international organisation could use a non-cruciform symbol.
I'm privileged to live in one of the few civilised countries where the law and civic institutions don't care what you think about the supernatural. As a devout atheist, I can either waste time and money setting up a new atheist charity to make a personal vanity point, or help an existing charity do their thing. The Sally Anne never ask where the money comes from or what you believe in - what matters is how they deploy the cash or time you give them. And their brass band hymn books have all the best tunes, beautifully arranged and pitched.
"Many of the older charities were founded at a time when it was difficult for any non-Christian to even admit his faith or lack of it..." Al
Would you list examples that demonstrate the difficulties they had as non-Christians?
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"Something that is important to understand is that science is not about proving things. Science has never actually proved any theory in fact. It's just not geared to do anything like that. Science is about observing nature and coming up with theories that can be used to make predictions about the phenomena it was designed to observe, i.e. to "explain." Religion is much worse at this, infinitely worse in fact. No religion on Earlh can prove God exists."
"All religions postulate that God exists and not one of them have a good reason for doing so."
"Does God exist? Maybe. Keep seeking - That's the best thing to do." pmbphy
Maybe God exists? Keep seeking is the best thing to do?
If religion doesn't have a single good reason to postulate God exists, how then, specifically, should someone seek God? Religion utilizes prayer, so you rule that out I guess. Prayer obviously doesn't work because religions encourage all kinds of prayers.
"Not one has a good reason."
What leads you to believe that? Science can't observe the changes that are characteristic of conversion? Science can't observe what the converted have to say about their lives before and after conversion? Science can't observe or count the number of people whose lives changed through conversion? It cannot observe the differences in the lives of those who pursued a spiritual relationship with a higher power and those who do not acknowledge making such an effort?
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A useful addition to the story to convince believers that Jesus was really dead and miraculously came back to life.
What use would that be if it wasn't true? What would they hope to achieve by making up his resurrection? Why would they bother with him if he was dead and gone?
If they were hoping to live charmed lives through producing a concocted story about a resurrected guy who was in fact dead, then they were convinced that would pave the way despite the fact they he was killed and they bolted.
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Would you list examples that demonstrate the difficulties they had as non-Christians?
Let's begin with the difficulty of being the wrong sort of Christian in Northern Ireland, and work back through history. But I don't have time to list all the expulsions and pogroms that form the proud history of that spurious excuse for obnoxious behavior.
However
Princess Diana’s mother, Frances Shand Kydd, was Jewish — born Frances Ruth Burke Roche, a Rothschild. If factual, that would be sufficient for Princess Diana to be certified Jewish, as well as her son, William, the future King of England.
and he's a nice guy, too.
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Would you list examples that demonstrate the difficulties they had as non-Christians?
Let's begin with the difficulty of being the wrong sort of Christian in Northern Ireland, and work back through history. But I don't have time to list all the expulsions and pogroms that form the proud history of that spurious excuse for obnoxious behavior.
However
Princess Diana’s mother, Frances Shand Kydd, was Jewish — born Frances Ruth Burke Roche, a Rothschild. If factual, that would be sufficient for Princess Diana to be certified Jewish, as well as her son, William, the future King of England.
and he's a nice guy, too.
What is the wrong kind of Christian? It was only the right kind of Christian who wasn't discriminated against? You refer to organizations with names associated with Christ as the perpetrators of all kinds of evil. What do organizations have to do with Christ? With being Christian? If the wrong type of Christian received mistreatment by the right kind, I doubt the right kind was Christian.
"Dixie democrats" were known for resisting civil rights in the U.S. My folks, who were devoted Democrats, strongly favored civil rights. To say that democrats were a bunch of racists is nuts. Labels can do terrible damage. Don't lump real Christians in with the likes of that mouse benny hinn, snake handlers, all Catholics, all any group.
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I do not know, but jesus cried out on the cross, anyone who tells you that 'having faith' and 'that its possible', get them to explain why god (or prophet imbued with divine power)clothed in human flesh, did so sucuumb to his mortal fallable biological weakness. He could have run to timbuktu, point is Jeeeezzzusssss wernt up to it.
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What is the wrong kind of Christian?
If you are a Protestant knuckledragging criminal, it's a Catholic. And vice versa. Or, if you go back a bit in history, a Quaker, or a member of any of the Brethren sects. And of course anyone who uses the term "real Christians" despises everyone else. It's just gang warfare in the name of Jesus. Still, it's healthier than pogroms, crusades and inquisitions for the rest of us.
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I do not know, but jesus cried out on the cross, anyone who tells you that 'having faith' and 'that its possible', get them to explain why god (or prophet imbued with divine power)clothed in human flesh, did so sucuumb to his mortal fallable biological weakness. He could have run to timbuktu, point is Jeeeezzzusssss wernt up to it.
I see. You believe He failed at his mission, which you are free to say without being banned. We are not allowed to evangelize as you know, so, we cannot honor your desire to, "get them to explain why god (or prophet imbued with divine power)clothed in human flesh, did so sucuumb to his mortal fallable biological weakness." We must remain silent, even against your wishes.
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What is the wrong kind of Christian?
If you are a Protestant knuckledragging criminal, it's a Catholic. And vice versa. Or, if you go back a bit in history, a Quaker, or a member of any of the Brethren sects. And of course anyone who uses the term "real Christians" despises everyone else. It's just gang warfare in the name of Jesus. Still, it's healthier than pogroms, crusades and inquisitions for the rest of us.
The spirit of hatred and bitterness in you is equally as troublesome as those you condemn.
I not only don't know exactly how the term "evangelism" is applied on N.S.; no one has defined its forbidden boundaries. IOW, I don't know what I'm allowed to say and what is verboten.
But, it is true according to a wide swath of various people, that the truth is Christ is not about hatred. Is that considered preaching, stating fact, evangelism? I don't know. I ask an expert to help me.
He said that man's heart is loaded with evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. I have everyone. Less so now. I have a daily reprieve. He said he was the remedy. Odd thing for a human being to say, don't you think?
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I don't hate anyone apart from those who justify their wrongdoing by faith.
If you want to see real hatred, watch your television news (proper news, not Trump propaganda) and see how Catholics and Protestants treat each other in Northern Ireland, or Buddhists treat Muslims in Myanmar, or Muslims treat everyone in ISIS- or Taliban-controlled territories. Or read your history books and learn about the partition riots in India.
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We are not allowed to evangelize as you know, so, we cannot honor your desire to, "get them to explain why god (or prophet imbued with divine power)clothed in human flesh, did so sucuumb to his mortal fallable biological weakness." We must remain silent, even against your wishes.
You don’t have to evangelise or preach to answer this.
I do not know, but jesus cried out on the cross, anyone who tells you that 'having faith' and 'that its possible', get them to explain why god (or prophet imbued with divine power)clothed in human flesh, did so sucuumb to his mortal fallable biological weakness. He could have run to timbuktu, point is Jeeeezzzusssss wernt up to it.
This crying out has caused a great deal of discussion in theological circles.
If you start from the assumption that Jesus was God, then you have to accept that he knew what was going to happen and went through with it in order to fulfil the prophecies in the OT and to start the whole Christianity on its way. The crying out is from Psalm 22 so is a direct reference to OT and its prophecies.
Albert Schweitzer thought that Jesus died in disillusionment, that he had spent his ministry expecting God to bring the kingdom of God directly through Jesus' ministry, and God did not do it. Schweitzer believed that Jesus allowed himself to be arrested and led right to execution expecting that God was going to rescue him at the last moment. That assumes a separation between God and Jesus which can tie theologians in knots.
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We are not allowed to evangelize as you know, so, we cannot honor your desire to, "get them to explain why god (or prophet imbued with divine power)clothed in human flesh, did so sucuumb to his mortal fallable biological weakness." We must remain silent, even against your wishes.
You don’t have to evangelise or preach to answer this.
Please do.
I do not know, but jesus cried out on the cross, anyone who tells you that 'having faith' and 'that its possible', get them to explain why god (or prophet imbued with divine power)clothed in human flesh, did so sucuumb to his mortal fallable biological weakness. He could have run to timbuktu, point is Jeeeezzzusssss wernt up to it.
This crying out has caused a great deal of discussion in theological circles.
If you start from the assumption that Jesus was God, then you have to accept that he knew what was going to happen and went through with it in order to fulfil the prophecies in the OT and to start the whole Christianity on its way. The crying out is from Psalm 22 so is a direct reference to OT and its prophecies.
Albert Schweitzer thought that Jesus died in disillusionment, that he had spent his ministry expecting God to bring the kingdom of God directly through Jesus' ministry, and God did not do it. Schweitzer believed that Jesus allowed himself to be arrested and led right to execution expecting that God was going to rescue him at the last moment. That assumes a separation between God and Jesus which can tie theologians in knots.
Personally I believe its the heroic sacrifice played out in religion, not a culture on earth is without a story of heroic calamity. Power through belief in a value, surprisingly effective. The crying out etc is our heros suffering, it would not be much of a story if he was on his cross, straight to death, then flying around like superman, I'd feel a little bit cheated to be honest with you given that he was apparently divine, I may well have asked for my money back.
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I'd feel a little bit cheated to be honest with you given that he was apparently divine, I may well have asked for my money back.
The problem is that none of this navel gazing answers the title of the topic. Unless someone was there with an eeg or brain scanner you will never know.
He was judged to have died according to those in the accounts, but even in the 18&19C people came back to life after having been pronounced dead - you’ve probably heard of coffin bells and safety coffins. I’ve also read recent accounts of people found breathing in a mortuary.
At the end of the day you have to decide what you want to believe because science can’t take you back in time with all the required test equipment, so no proof either way.
Bit of a pointless topic for a science site.
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I'd feel a little bit cheated to be honest with you given that he was apparently divine, I may well have asked for my money back.
The problem is that none of this navel gazing answers the title of the topic. Unless someone was there with an eeg or brain scanner you will never know.
Bit of a pointless topic for a science site.
Yes quite right. But i think this thread has been started in rebuke of some point in one of the other "god threads".
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Known fact: Crucifixion is fatal if you leave the victim there long enough.
Probable fact: Jesus was crucified. Pretty standard form of exemplary execution in Roman colonies.
Most probable conclusion: Jesus died on the cross. Plenty of others did.
Next question, please.
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Thank you Colin
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To understand if Jesus died on the cross we must first understand what was Jesus? No one knows since no one was there except the Father God. The best information I have is from my encounters, dreams, and visions. From history we know that there were many Jews hung on crosses during that time. We also know that there were faith healers who were able to absorb spiritual energy and touch a sick person. The excessive energy would heal the person by super energizing their immune system. That was common.
The virgin birth story is a common occurrence when spiritual energy from the Father God enters a woman. This fertilizes an egg and a clone of the woman is born. Its DNA is identical with the mother. Thus one particular Jewish Child was a male copy of the mother.
The Father God of the Earth has the ability to enter the minds of various people. He inserts false memory into their minds. They write Gospel stories from the false memories. To the writers it is true. The events tend to be mythological with a mixture of historical fact.
What is true and what is false? Both the Bible and Gospels are a mixture of mythology and history. Why has God done this? Perhaps the answer is human freedom. God gives us the choice to believe or not to believe. He wants doubt which insures freedom.
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Known fact: Crucifixion is fatal if you leave the victim there long enough.
The biggest word in that sentence is "if".
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There's no urgency in removing the victim. Indeed the report of a soldier poking him with a spear suggests that he was indeed dead before removal. The Romans were pretty thorough at killing people.
There would have been little point in subsequently removing the body from the tomb otherwise.
"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras".
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There's no urgency in removing the victim. Indeed the report of a soldier poking him with a spear suggests that he was indeed dead before removal. The Romans were pretty thorough at killing people.
There would have been little point in subsequently removing the body from the tomb otherwise.
"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras".
There would have been little point in subsequently removing the body from the tomb otherwise.
"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras".
Once again, Big Al comes through. He knows where it's at.
It makes sense. He was dead. Obviously, they knew he was dead. So, they rolled the stone away, grabbed his corpse and hid and cowered, terrified they could be next, or at least be in grave danger. Not to worry. Soon, they realized they could go around shouting from the top of their lungs to anyone who would listen, that their boy Jesus had risen from the dead, free of the slightest concern for their own safety and their family's. Yes sir, by golly, the jig was up, so spontaneously, right then and there, they called a sit-down and plotted to unite in a conspiratorial campaign to sacrifice everything by pretending this nut was still hanging out. Well, it makes sense. It really does. Most stable, grown, mature, devout, hard working, conscientious, Jewish men did the same thing. The history books are filled with their stories. In fact, most solid citizens from everywhere make up bull to get themselves whacked over it. It's actually quite the rage and it only makes perfect, logical sense.
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"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras".
Yes.
The zebra is the resurrection of someone who was actually dead.
The horse is a bunch of soldiers got lazy and screwed up an execution- lets face it; they did lots. You can see how they might have had the odd botch job.
It's vastly more likely that something possible happened than that something impossible happened.
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Pharisees gathered together with Pilate, and said, “Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I am to rise again.’ “Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead,’ and the last deception will be worse than the first.” Pilate said to them, “You have a guard; go, make it as secure as you know how.” And they went and made the grave secure, and along with the guard they set a seal on the stone.
They weren't stupid. They knew perfectly well how duplicitous those dirty rotten criminals who followed that deceiver were. Oh no. They weren't going to take any chances against those conniving scoundrels.
How did Al know what they pulled off? Very good, Big Al. I guess they probably shot the guard in the head with a sling shot, knocked him out cold, and pulled off one heck of a heist, baby. Congratulations, BA! You did it again.
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I do not know, but jesus cried out on the cross, anyone who tells you that 'having faith' and 'that its possible', get them to explain why god (or prophet imbued with divine power)clothed in human flesh, did so sucuumb to his mortal fallable biological weakness. He could have run to timbuktu, point is Jeeeezzzusssss wernt up to it.
Twernt up to what? Hanging naked in front of his mom, watching her watch him die slowly an agonizing death? Observing her scream and pound the ground and plead for his executioners to take him down? Covered lightly in a mist of his blood, dirty, grimy begging God to save her baby, her precious boy, "Please God, please God, please God, GOD, GOD, GOD, GOD! He never hurt anyone." Dag, am I preaching?
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It is difficult to sort myth from evidence but it seems that he was not on the cross very long and as Christians always go on about his pieced hands so he must have had support as he could have been hanging by his arms.
The myth makers have added the bit about the stabbing to make out he was dead.
It seems that his feet could not have been nailed to the cross as he was reported to be walking three days later.
As those who did conducted the cruxifiction did not take much care for hygene I think he died about three months later from blood poisining as his supporters secretly buried him.
The reasons for his cruxification are rather a puzzle he had upset the religious authorities so he was condemed for blasphemy and would normally have been stoned to death did they want him comdemed as a terroist and killed by the civil authorities as he had a lot of popular support ?
You ever watched a crucifixion?
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You ever watched a crucifixion?
Have you ever asked a pointless question?
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Pharisees gathered together with Pilate, and said, “Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I am to rise again.’ “Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day,
OK, so how come it wasn't these guards who found the tomb open?
Could it be that they did their job They waited three days.
And the injured Jesus regained consciousness on the 4th day?
It's not as if I'm the only one to think that way.
https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/the-chronology-of-the-crucifixion-and-resurrection-of-jesus-christ
And, if you know there's going to be a guard, you don't bother to make sure the tomb is all that secure.
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Elementary physics suggests that if you can carry a body into a tomb and roll a stone across the entrance, I can roll the stone away and steal the body.
No need for divine intervention. Indeed divine intervention would not have needed to hang about for 3 days or remove the stone.
It is a pretty pathetic god that can create the entire universe in 7 days but has to impregnate a woman to make another human. And a lousy father that can destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, flood the entire world, variously smite and inflict plagues of frogs, boils etc on anyone who displeaseth Him, but stand back and watch his son be tortured to death for doing good works.
The more one reads the New Testament, the less likely and laudable the Christian God becomes.
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To understand if Jesus died on the cross we must first understand what was Jesus? No one knows since no one was there except the Father God. The best information I have is from my encounters, dreams, and visions. From history we know that there were many Jews hung on crosses during that time. We also know that there were faith healers who were able to absorb spiritual energy and touch a sick person. The excessive energy would heal the person by super energizing their immune system. That was common.
The virgin birth story is a common occurrence when spiritual energy from the Father God enters a woman. This fertilizes an egg and a clone of the woman is born. Its DNA is identical with the mother. Thus one particular Jewish Child was a male copy of the mother.
The Father God of the Earth has the ability to enter the minds of various people. He inserts false memory into their minds. They write Gospel stories from the false memories. To the writers it is true. The events tend to be mythological with a mixture of historical fact.
What is true and what is false? Both the Bible and Gospels are a mixture of mythology and history. Why has God done this? Perhaps the answer is human freedom. God gives us the choice to believe or not to believe. He wants doubt which insures freedom.
Christ almighty !
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Alancalverd says: The more one reads the New Testament, the less likely and laudable the Christian God becomes.
GG: What you say is common to many others. In 1981 as I argued with my God about the Bible, I said "It is a book of lies" and I threw it in an ash can. This angered my God and he sent out a ray that burnt a blind spot in my eye. It took many years for the blind spot to go away. All I have come to believe is that within the book of lies is mythology mixed with historical fact. The God of 2000 years ago was quite scientifically ignorant. The intelligence of man over the 2000 years has been absorbed by my God. God is only a higher level of us. It was stupid but now it is quite smart.
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This angered my God and he sent out a ray that burnt a blind spot in my eye.
Plenty of people have binned the Bible- literally or figuratively.
Why did God pick on you to get a zapped eye, but leave the others with good vision?
That makes no sense, does it?
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This angered my God and he sent out a ray that burnt a blind spot in my eye.
My point precisely. The jealous and vengeful god belongs in the OT, with all his plagues and floods. You were lucky Jaweh didn't turn you into a pillar of salt. The NT is all about mercy and forgiveness.
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Bored Chemist says:Plenty of people have binned the Bible- literally or figuratively.
Why did God pick on you to get a zapped eye, but leave the others with good vision?
That makes no sense, does it?
GG: The big problem is that the God of the Bible and Gospels was assumed to be a powerful God and in reality our God is a rather weak force with very limited power. Why me? I guess because my god wanted to bring modern man upward toward the truth and the purpose of God. Religious people tend to be frozen in their understanding of God. I tend to be a heretic. The only problem I have is my lifetime of communication with my God. Yet I am still trying to understand what God is. So I was available to upgrade and understanding of God. The Christians would have burnt me at the stake years ago and the Jews would have stoned me to death. Today I am just another lunatic. It is a comedy. So I serve my self. Getting a new chicken soon so my rooster will be happy again. Think you are right about the rooster crying for another mate.
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Alancalverd says:My point precisely. The jealous and vengeful god belongs in the OT, with all his plagues and floods. You were lucky Jaweh didn't turn you into a pillar of salt. The NT is all about mercy and forgiveness.
GG: At the time of Moses the Jewish God was quite animalistic. By the time of Jesus it was more humanistic. For the Island peoples their God was quite lovely. All this proves is that God is evolving toward higher humanity. It is the higher level of ourselves.We make our God. The Bible and Gospels only reflect slight encounters with the evolving God.
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our God is a rather weak force with very limited power.
Get a dictionary; that's not a God.
https://dilbert.com/strip/2001-10-02
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Naked 5.16.2020 5 pm
GG: our God is a rather weak force with very limited power.
Bored Chemist says: Get a dictionary; that's not a God.
GG replies: Webster New World third college edition says: 2/ an image that is worshipped, idol 3/ a person or thing deified or excessively honored and admired
You are looking at the usual definition where God is the creator of the universe and a supernatural entity. I do not believe in that. My God is a natural God. It is part of us. Part of all life as well. As such God is quite different for everyone.
Without the fifth dimension there is no God. With the fifth dimension our spirits exist and we flow into our God in death. God eats our intelligence. This enables God to produce higher man upon a new Earth. Alternatively it could produce higher man upon this Earth long after man is gone.
Interactions with God can only occur if someone aligns himself to God. God has no real power over a non-believer. Thus a person must be willing to seek out God. Then the person is subject to a spiritual interaction. Often people are saved after they are dead. Some will see the light of God and they can turn away from it or flow toward it. If they turn away they will quickly perish and be no more. If they turn toward it they will be absorbed by the light. No religion is necessary for salvation.
Many people spend a lifetime praying to God and worshipping God. To me that is idol worship. So that is the problem with definitions 2 and 3.
Is God a being or a process? All I know is that at the end of the process we will emerge as higher man. So I interact with my God but most of the interactions are within my own mind. I see the higher dimension and it excites and frightens me. My hypomanic mind reaches the limit at the edge of insanity and I pull back. It often takes quite a long time to recover from the trip to the edge. Yet that was a long time ago and I never want to return.
The scientists have their test instruments to search the universe. I have my hypomanic mind to search what is beyond our four dimensions. That is my test instrument. Thanks for your comments.