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  4. Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?
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Universal Utopia? What's The Universal Terminal Goal?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #280 on: 17/04/2021 06:23:47 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/04/2021 13:29:42
The 2 Most Important Skills For the Rest Of Your Life | Yuval Noah Harari on Impact Theory
I posted Harari's videos since he brought many points relevant to our discussions in my threads. It seems like we're both influenced by  the thoughts of futurists like Ray Kurzweil, who said that he simply observed the trend of technological advancements and recognized the patterns to extrapolate and project them into the future. He didn't put philosophical consideration into his predictions.
Harari added into his world view his own perspective as a historian. He emphasizes the power of stories to drive human actions and behaviors. The stories are a subset of a more general concept, which is meme.
« Last Edit: 17/04/2021 07:03:47 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #281 on: 17/04/2021 07:10:20 »
Besides our agreements, there are at least two main differences I can identify. They are the meaning of consciousness and the existence of  a universal terminal goal. Universal morality comes as a logical consequence from those concepts.
It seems that he is influenced by a neuroscience research which concludes that consciousness is about feelings. I've posted the link to it in my previous post.  He didn't explore much on the concept of goal, let alone finding a universal terminal goal.
« Last Edit: 17/04/2021 09:15:06 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #282 on: 17/04/2021 07:38:04 »
Without a goal, we can't say whether or not something is good or bad. Without consciousness there can't be any goal.
« Last Edit: 17/04/2021 09:14:15 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #283 on: 17/04/2021 21:13:03 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/04/2021 13:41:06
People often limit their creativity by continually adding new features to a design rather than removing existing ones.
Here is another source to the same topic.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/04/the-takeaway-is-that-we-dont-tend-to-take-things-away/
Quote
When asked to fix something, we don’t even think of removing parts
Across many experiments, participants tried to fix problems by adding stuff.

As a society, we seem to have mixed feelings about whether it's better to add or subtract things, advising both that "less is more" and "bigger is better." But these contradictory views play out across multibillion-dollar industries, with people salivating over the latest features of their hardware and software before bemoaning that the added complexities make the product difficult to use.

A team of researchers from the University of Virginia decided to look at the behavior underlying this tension, finding in a new paper that most people defaulted to assuming that the best way of handling a problem is to add new features. While it was easy to overcome this tendency with some simple nudges, the researchers suggest that this thought process may underlie some of the growing complexity of the modern world.

https://neurosciencenews.com/subtraction-cognition-18195/
Quote
Summary: Study explains the human tendency to look at a situation, or object, that needs improvement in different contexts, and instead, generally believe adding an element is a better solution than removing one.
« Last Edit: 17/04/2021 22:50:31 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #284 on: 18/04/2021 15:31:16 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/04/2021 07:38:04
Without a goal, we can't say whether or not something is good or bad. Without consciousness there can't be any goal.
If you are part of a larger conscious entity, then your terminal goal can be merely their instrumental goal. For example, the terminal goal of a scout ant is to find food. But it's merely an instrumental goal for the ant colony. Likewise, the terminal goal of an ant queen is to lay eggs. She doesn't even take care of them, except in a new colony.
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #285 on: 18/04/2021 22:04:46 »
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The Blind Watchmaker, Richard Dawkins’ bestselling 1986 book that skewers the notion of intelligent design while celebrating the rational science of evolution, got its star turn today in Jeff Bezos’ final shareholder letter as CEO of Amazon.

Specifically, Bezos quoted this passage on what the natural fight to stay alive means from a purely biological standpoint:

“Staving off death is a thing that you have to work at. Left to itself – and that is what it is when it dies – the body tends to revert to a state of equilibrium with its environment. If you measure some quantity such as the temperature, the acidity, the water content or the electrical potential in a living body, you will typically find that it is markedly different from the corresponding measure in the surroundings. Our bodies, for instance, are usually hotter than our surroundings, and in cold climates they have to work hard to maintain the differential. When we die the work stops, the temperature differential starts to disappear, and we end up the same temperature as our surroundings.”

Bezos point? That the struggle to stay alive is constant as our environment dispassionately seeks to return all of us to room temperature.
Quote
And that, from a business standpoint, doesn’t align with his Day One philosophy. He continued:

“While the passage is not intended as a metaphor, it’s nevertheless a fantastic one, and very relevant to Amazon. I would argue that it’s relevant to all companies and all institutions and to each of our individual lives too. In what ways does the world pull at you in an attempt to make you normal? How much work does it take to maintain your distinctiveness? To keep alive the thing or things that make you special?”
Bezos ends his letter with this message: “The world will always try to make Amazon more typical – to bring us into equilibrium with our environment. It will take continuous effort, but we can and must be better than that.”

https://www.geekwire.com/2021/heres-jeff-bezos-quoted-1986-book-human-evolution-shareholders-letter/
« Last Edit: 18/04/2021 22:19:44 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #286 on: 19/04/2021 16:00:00 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 18/04/2021 22:04:46
Bezos point? That the struggle to stay alive is constant as our environment dispassionately seeks to return all of us to room temperature.
The us here is not limited to biologically individual multicellular organisms like a human specimen. It also works on lower levels such as individual cells or organs, as well as higher levels such as corporations, countries, tribes, species, and beyond.
« Last Edit: 20/04/2021 13:37:29 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #287 on: 20/04/2021 13:40:44 »
CRISPR: Can we control it? | Jennifer Doudna, Richard Dawkins, Steven Pinker, & more | Big Think
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CRISPR (Clustered Regularly Interspaced Short Palindromic Repeats) is a revolutionary technology that gives scientists the ability to alter DNA. On the one hand, this tool could mean the elimination of certain diseases. On the other, there are concerns (both ethical and practical) about its misuse and the yet-unknown consequences of such experimentation.

"The technique could be misused in horrible ways," says counter-terrorism expert Richard A. Clarke. Clarke lists biological weapons as one of the potential threats, "Threats for which we don't have any known antidote." CRISPR co-inventor, biochemist Jennifer Doudna, echos the concern, recounting a nightmare involving the technology, eugenics, and a meeting with Adolf Hitler.

Should humanity even have access to this type of tool? Do the positives outweigh the potential dangers? How could something like this ever be regulated, and should it be? These questions and more are considered by Doudna, Clarke, evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, psychologist Steven Pinker, and physician Siddhartha Mukherjee.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TRANSCRIPT:

0:41​ Jennifer Doudna defines CRISPR
3:47​ CRISPR’s risks
4:52​ Artificial selection vs. artificial mutation
6:25​ Why Steven Pinker believes humanity will play it safe
9:20​ Lessons from history
10:58​ How CRISPR can help
11:22​ Jennifer Doudna’s chimeric-Hitler dream

- Our ability to manipulate genes can be very powerful. It has been very powerful.

- This is going to revolutionize human life.

- Would the consequences be bad? And they might be.

- Every time you monkey with the genome you are taking a chance that something will go wrong.

- The technique could be misused in horrible ways.

- When I started this research project, I've kind of had this initial feeling of what have I done.
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #288 on: 20/04/2021 13:46:09 »
https://futurism.com/aging-expert-person-1000-born
Aging Expert: The First Person to Live to 1,000 Has Already Been Born
Dr. Aubrey de Grey sees aging as a problem than can be solved through "technological intervention."
Quote
Aging has plagued biological organisms since life first began on planet Earth and it’s an accepted and universally understood part of life. Sure, things like climate change pose significant threats to society, but aging will almost certainly still exist even if we ever manage to stop damaging our environment.

That said, scientists aren’t the kind of people who just live with the cards life has dealt them, and are especially likely to use their understanding of the world to solve difficult and seemingly impossible problems —  like aging.

Dr. Aubrey de Grey is one such person. Through the co-founding of the SENS Research Foundation and his role as chief science officer, de Grey has set out to end biological aging. The foundation’s “About” page makes it clear that de Grey believes “a world free of age-related disease is possible.”

Speaking at a Virtual Futures event in London on Wednesday, Inverse confirmed that de Grey truly believes in this goal, even going so far as to boldly state that the first person that will live to be 1,000 years-old has already been born. He also thinks science will have found a way to perfect anti-aging treatments within the next 20 years.
Quote
If or when humanity determines how to reject aging, de Grey foresees the development of rejuvenation clinics that will address seven issues related to aging: tissue atrophy, cancerous cells, mitochondrial mutations, death-resistant cells, extracellular matrix stiffening, extracellular aggregates, and intracellular aggregates.
« Last Edit: 20/04/2021 13:48:31 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #289 on: 20/04/2021 22:52:36 »
Whatever happened in the past will become memory for present and future conscious beings. Whatever we are doing now are becoming events in the past.
If our actions have no effect whatsoever to future conscious beings, they will be meaningless. It could happen if we go extinct and the conscious beings exist in the future emerge/evolve independently from our lineage.

Whatever the future conscious beings might be, they are extremely unlikely to appear suddenly out of nowhere in a single shot. It's much more probable that they will emerge as products of evolutionary process through natural selection in many generations. The process will be continued by artificial selection. The variations of their characteristics will shift from mainly provided by random mutation to a more directed intentional changes.
« Last Edit: 21/04/2021 00:13:09 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #290 on: 21/04/2021 02:38:13 »
We can't change conditions of the past. So we shouldn't waste our time and other resources trying to do that. Present condition will become the past in a moment. Hence we should direct our efforts and allocate resources to improve our conditions in the future.
The conscious beings exist in the future could include the continuation of our ego, our direct descendants, or something else that we create. They are basically modified duplicates of ourselves, better suited for future conditions. So if our actions now don't align with the goal of improving the well being of future conscious beings, those actions will be considered as wasteful, hence must be hindered.
« Last Edit: 21/04/2021 05:36:01 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #291 on: 21/04/2021 05:56:17 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 20/04/2021 22:52:36
Whatever the future conscious beings might be, they are extremely unlikely to appear suddenly out of nowhere in a single shot. It's much more probable that they will emerge as products of evolutionary process through natural selection in many generations. The process will be continued by artificial selection. The variations of their characteristics will shift from mainly provided by random mutation to a more directed intentional changes.
Directed intentional changes means that before implementation, the changes would be simulated first in a virtual environment. It can be someone's brain or many types of computers, or some experimental setup. Only changes wich are expected to bring intended consequences and minimum unwanted side effects will then be implemented. Otherwise they would be discarded.
« Last Edit: 21/04/2021 06:01:44 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #292 on: 21/04/2021 06:18:23 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/04/2021 06:14:38
The article below says that life is abundant in the universe. We haven't made contact with extraterrestrial lives because of transportation and accommodation  problems. If someday we eventually make first contact with them, it would be preferable to be on the side which has more advanced technology and philosophy.

https://www.sci-nature.vip/2020/10/astronomers-admit-we-were-wrong100.html?m=1&s=03

Astronomers Admit: We Were Wrong—100 Billion Habitable Earth-Like Planets In Our Galaxy Alone
Quote
Estimates by astronomers indicate that there could be more than 100 BILLION Earth-like worlds in the Milky Way that could be home to life. Think that’s a big number? According to astronomers, there are roughly 500 billion galaxies in the known universe, which means there are around 50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (5×1022) habitable planets. That’s of course if there’s just ONE universe.
If we don't want future conscious beings to go extinct with the destruction of the earth, we must try to develop multiplanetary civilization, and then interstellar or even intergalactic civilization. It's evidently not easy tasks, since we haven't found any lifeform capable of forming even a multiplanetary civilization, although we are getting closer to that feat.
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #293 on: 21/04/2021 22:10:58 »
An interstellar or intergalactic civilization will have to deal with communication and transportation problems. Interactions among different stellar or galactic systems can't happen in real time. We will have limited bandwidth and big latency problems. The solutions must contain decentralisation or localization of resources, akin to edge computing I've mentioned in another thread. Local problems are better solved locally. Global problems are better solved globally. Universal problems are better solved universally.
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #294 on: 22/04/2021 13:55:47 »
There will be some people or other conscious lifeforms who act as if there is no such thing as a universal terminal goal. Hence they effectively replace it with some arbitrarily chosen non-universal terminal goals. Those goals would inevitably have expiry time. When they are expired, they would have to be replaced by something else with later expiry time.
We will be forced to change our terminal goal every time it expires, until it is the same as the universal terminal goal, or we stop existing.
« Last Edit: 22/04/2021 14:17:17 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #295 on: 22/04/2021 14:38:06 »
Arbitrarily chosen non-universal terminal goals create additional constraints and burdens to our efforts in achieving the universal terminal goal. They make our efforts less effective and less efficient. Hence increasing the risk of failure. So, it would be preferable for as many as possible conscious agents to identify and acknowledge the universal terminal goal as soon as possible to avoid wasting resources unnecessarily.
« Last Edit: 23/04/2021 15:46:38 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #296 on: 22/04/2021 14:56:53 »
"...and we should do it now" (Elon Musk)
Why?
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #297 on: 22/04/2021 15:19:33 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/04/2021 14:56:53
"...and we should do it now" (Elon Musk)
Why?
Now is the only time when we can really make a change. Time is considered as a precious resource which should not be spent in vain. The longer we wait, the less time we can use to execute our plans, and the higher the risk of failure.
« Last Edit: 22/04/2021 15:35:18 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #298 on: 22/04/2021 22:46:50 »
Ghost in the Shell: Will AI Ever Be Conscious?
As society gets closer to human-level AI, scientists debate what it means to exist.
Quote
Imagine you undergo a procedure in which every neuron in your brain is gradually replaced by functionally-equivalent electronic components. Let’s say the replacement occurs a single neuron at a time, and that behaviorally, nothing about you changes. From the outside, you are still “you,” even to your closest friends and loved ones.

What would happen to your consciousness? Would it incrementally disappear, one neuron at a time? Would it suddenly blink out of existence after the replacement of some consciousness-critical particle in your posterior cortex? Or would you simply remain you, fully aware of your lived experience and sentience (and either pleased or horrified that your mind could theoretically be preserved forever)?

This famous consciousness thought experiment, proposed by the philosopher David Chalmers in his 1995 paper Absent Qualia, Fading Qualia, Dancing Qualia, raises just about every salient question there is in the debate surrounding the possibility of consciousness in artificial intelligence.
Quote
Futurist Ray Kurzweil, the computer scientist behind music-synthesizer and text-to-speech technologies, is a believer in the fast approach of the singularity as well. Kurzweil is so confident in the speed of this development that he’s betting hard. Literally, he’s wagering Kapor $10,000 that a machine intelligence will be able to pass the Turing test, a challenge that determines whether a computer can trick a human judge into thinking it itself is human, by 2029.
Shortly after that, as he says in a recent talk with Society for Science, humanity will merge with the technology it has created, uploading our minds to the cloud. As admirable as that optimism is, this seems unlikely, given our newly-forming understanding of the brain and its relationship to consciousness.

https://interestingengineering.com/will-ai-ever-be-conscious
« Last Edit: 22/04/2021 22:52:55 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Universal Utopia?
« Reply #299 on: 23/04/2021 15:53:39 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/04/2021 13:55:47
There will be some people or other conscious lifeforms who act as if there is no such thing as a universal terminal goal. Hence they effectively replace it with some arbitrarily chosen non-universal terminal goals.
Some of those non-universal terminal goals may bring consequences which effectively obstruct or even prevent the achievement of the universal terminal goal.
Other conscious agents who already acknowledge the universal terminal goal should prepare some counter measures for that case. Establishing a universal moral standard is one of them.
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