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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Is there a universal moral standard?
« on: 14/11/2018 06:30:38 »
I consider this topic as a spinoff of my previous subject
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=71347.0
It is split up because morality itself is quite complex and can generate a discussion too long to be covered there. 
Before we start the discussion, it might be useful to have some background information to save our time and energy to prevent unnecessary debate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality
Quote
Morality (from Latin: moralis, lit. 'manner, character, proper behavior') is the differentiation of intentions, decisions and actions between those that are distinguished as proper and those that are improper.[1] Morality can be a body of standards or principles derived from a code of conduct from a particular philosophy, religion or culture, or it can derive from a standard that a person believes should be universal.[2] Morality may also be specifically synonymous with "goodness" or "rightness".

I hope this topic can start a discussion which can eventually produce satisfactory answer to the question .
« Last Edit: 14/11/2018 06:39:38 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1 on: 14/11/2018 06:35:46 »
I found older topics in this forum discussing morality, such as
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=21892.msg245282#msg245282
or
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=17732.msg370985#msg370985
I just don't want to jump in and hijack those topics.

There are also interesting debate between Youtubers arguing about objective morality.
and

Those videos may represent two positions in moral philosophy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality#Realism_and_anti-realism

So they are actually discussing more about ethics :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics
Quote
Ethics or moral philosophy is a branch of philosophy that involves systematizing, defending, and recommending concepts of right and wrong conduct.[1] The field of ethics, along with aesthetics, concern matters of value, and thus comprise the branch of philosophy called axiology.[2]

Ethics seeks to resolve questions of human morality by defining concepts such as good and evil, right and wrong, virtue and vice, justice and crime. As a field of intellectual inquiry, moral philosophy also is related to the fields of moral psychology, descriptive ethics, and value theory.
« Last Edit: 14/11/2018 07:52:38 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2 on: 14/11/2018 08:05:39 »
Without delving too deeply into the definition of morality or ethics, I think we can usefully approach the subject through "universal". The test is whether any person considered normal by his peers, would make the same choice or judgement as any other in a case requiring subjective evaluation.

This immediately  leads to a sampling question. "Turn the other cheek" would be considered normal and desirable in some peer groups, whilst "an eye for an eye" might be de rigeur for others. Both strategies have evolutionary validity: think rabbits, which outbreed their predators, and lions, where only the strongest male gets to breed.

Homo sapiens is an odd creature We breed too slowly to survive as prey, and are too weak to be predators, but a very complex collaboration allows us to farm and hunt all we need. That said, although we can see the value of large scale collaboration (like bees and ants) it takes a long time to acquire the knowledge and skills needed to participate, so the small "family" unit (including communes and kibbutzim) is a prerequisite of survival.

Thus we grow up with at least two loyalties, to the immediate family that supports us, and to the wider community that supports the family. No problem if we have infinite resources and unlimited choice, but the decisions we make in restricted circumstances are what defines our morality, and it is fairly clear from daily accounts of religious wars and magistrates' court proceedings that either  there is no universal concept of right and wrong, or that it can be set aside for personal gain.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3 on: 14/11/2018 08:11:21 »
To answer the question properly we need to define the boundary of the subject. We need to answer standard questions : what, where, when, who, why, how.

We can also explore the subject further using thought experiments and their variations such us trolley problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
From those specific cases we may be able to conclude a general rule behind the decisions made in those cases. In my opinion, the trolley problem and its variations ask us what is the priority held by the decision maker, and what factors may influence it.

I found a trolley problem experiment in real life in this video:
« Last Edit: 14/11/2018 08:22:21 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #4 on: 14/11/2018 09:41:04 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/11/2018 08:11:21
From those specific cases we may be able to conclude a general rule behind the decisions made in those cases.
Probably not.
The example quoted by @alancalverd (eye for eye) shows the problem of trying to decide a universal ethic.
While some might go for the lesser evil, Alan is likely to go for population reduction and set the trolly on the 5.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #5 on: 14/11/2018 12:04:46 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 14/11/2018 08:05:39
Without delving too deeply into the definition of morality or ethics, I think we can usefully approach the subject through "universal". The test is whether any person considered normal by his peers, would make the same choice or judgement as any other in a case requiring subjective evaluation.

This immediately  leads to a sampling question. "Turn the other cheek" would be considered normal and desirable in some peer groups, whilst "an eye for an eye" might be de rigeur for others. Both strategies have evolutionary validity: think rabbits, which outbreed their predators, and lions, where only the strongest male gets to breed.

Homo sapiens is an odd creature We breed too slowly to survive as prey, and are too weak to be predators, but a very complex collaboration allows us to farm and hunt all we need. That said, although we can see the value of large scale collaboration (like bees and ants) it takes a long time to acquire the knowledge and skills needed to participate, so the small "family" unit (including communes and kibbutzim) is a prerequisite of survival.

Thus we grow up with at least two loyalties, to the immediate family that supports us, and to the wider community that supports the family. No problem if we have infinite resources and unlimited choice, but the decisions we make in restricted circumstances are what defines our morality, and it is fairly clear from daily accounts of religious wars and magistrates' court proceedings that either  there is no universal concept of right and wrong, or that it can be set aside for personal gain.
Thank you for spending your precious time to join this discussion. I realize that there are many theories on morality and ethics as described in Wikipedia links, and many of them are incompatible to each other. So far I haven't found a general consensus among modern philosopher on this topic. May be that's why we can find those mutual debunking videos from Youtubers who have similar world view and usually agree with each other on most other topics.

In this topic I'll try to figure out where are common grounds among those theories on morality and ethics, and where they start to diverge, and why.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #6 on: 14/11/2018 12:10:50 »
Quote from: Colin2B on 14/11/2018 09:41:04
Probably not.The example quoted by @alancalverd (eye for eye) shows the problem of trying to decide a universal ethic.While some might go for the lesser evil, Alan is likely to go for population reduction and set the trolly on the 5.
We won't find out if we don't even try, do we?
To resolve the problem with the dilemma, we need to be clear about the reason behind those decisions, and in what circumstances they are acceptable (or not).
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #7 on: 14/11/2018 12:22:05 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/11/2018 12:10:50
We won't find out if we don't even try, do we?
That depends what you are trying to find out. Your question is asking about a universal ethic/morality, but @alancalverd shows that it doesn’t exist.
Perhaps you are trying to devise a methodology to determine the ethic/morality that drives a particular individual or group in specific circumstances.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #8 on: 14/11/2018 12:53:46 »
I think the oft quoted saying an eye for an eye was meant to limit revenge not to encourage it.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #9 on: 14/11/2018 12:57:41 »
I'll try to answer standard questions, starting with "What". In most theories, morality can be seen as a method to distinguish between right and wrong, good and bad, proper and improper. It follows that to get to universal agreement on morality, we need first to agree on what is defined by the words right and wrong, good and bad, proper and improper. This inevitably lead us to the next question: who decides what's right and wrong, good and bad, proper and improper, and why?
Question of when and where can be more easily answered. A universal moral standard must be applicable anywhere and anytime.
« Last Edit: 14/11/2018 13:53:32 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #10 on: 14/11/2018 13:11:49 »
Quote from: Colin2B on 14/11/2018 12:22:05
That depends what you are trying to find out. Your question is asking about a universal ethic/morality, but @alancalverd shows that it doesn’t exist.Perhaps you are trying to devise a methodology to determine the ethic/morality that drives a particular individual or group in specific circumstances.
I think Alan's post only shows that morality can be subjective, limited by space and time (in answering standard questions of who, where and when), but doesn't show that it can't be collective. If some moral standards can be shown to be universally applicable, that will answer the question of the topic.
On the contrary, I try to find fundamental rules which drive us to diverse moral values that we have today. As analogy, in evolutionary biology, we have random mutation and natural selection that drive life to diversity of life forms.
« Last Edit: 14/11/2018 13:48:11 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #11 on: 14/11/2018 13:14:01 »
Quote from: syhprum on 14/11/2018 12:53:46
I think the oft quoted saying an eye for an eye was meant to limit revenge not to encourage it.
I think it is both ways. It can also be used to discourage the offense in the first place.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #12 on: 14/11/2018 13:23:39 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/11/2018 08:11:21
To answer the question properly we need to define the boundary of the subject. We need to answer standard questions : what, where, when, who, why, how.

We can also explore the subject further using thought experiments and their variations such us trolley problem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
From those specific cases we may be able to conclude a general rule behind the decisions made in those cases. In my opinion, the trolley problem and its variations ask us what is the priority held by the decision maker, and what factors may influence it.

I found a trolley problem experiment in real life in this video:

I find that in real life experiment, there are something significant not considered in the thought experiments. Those are uncertainty about the assertions in the narrative of the situation. Is it true that doing nothing will cause something bad to happen? (in the experiment in the video, not really). Is it true that our action will give us a more desired (or less undesired) result?
In one variation we might ask, what is the probability that the fat man's body can really stop the train? Or what's the probability that those five men can save themselves?
From this finding, we can conclude that one factor of moral subjectivity comes from Bayesian inference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_inference
« Last Edit: 14/11/2018 14:08:11 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #13 on: 14/11/2018 13:39:10 »
"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is nowadays considered by Jewish philosophers as a simplistic misinterpretation of "to the value of an eye....", that is, promoting restorative rather than retributive justice, but the underlying theme is always justice and caution* rather than forgiveness. My father told the story of a Jewish doctor treating a dying ex-SS patient who asked "can you forgive me", to which he answered "Being human, I can forget or ignore, but forgiveness is a matter for your god". I consider that a logical starting point, but those brought up in other faiths may think otherwise.

Intriguingly I find something in common between Jewish and Celtic law, where the individual is held liable without limit for his actions and the state exists to serve the citizen by prosecuting wrongs;  in contrast to Roman law where the citizen exists to serve the state and is granted rights in exchange, and its latterday substitution of absolution and penitence for sacrifice.

Not that I have much time for faith. As Dawkins pointed out, the only common theme among religions is that each teaches you to despise all the others.




*"Hit me once - shame on you. Hit me twice - shame on me." - sounds sharper in Yiddish, but I 'm a bit rusty.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #14 on: 14/11/2018 13:54:51 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/11/2018 13:11:49

I think Alan's post only shows that morality can be subjective, but doesn't show that it can't be collective. If some moral standards can be shown to be universally applicable, that will answer the question of the topic.

I spend some time sitting on medical research ethics committees. The general guidance seems to boil down to whether the balance of risk and benefit has been fully evaluated and presented such that the famous "man on the Clapham omnibus" would be able to make an informed decision to participate. But in making that judgement, we are often aware that even his brother on the Brooklyn omnibus has a slightly different perspective, and we can only guess at what the average Tokyo commuter might consider acceptable.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #15 on: 14/11/2018 18:17:12 »
to begin, I understand the word "universal" to mean within the universe of this world.

I am not attempting to diminish the importance of the question; but who knows what standard of morality might exist in other worlds in the greater universe?...perhaps the moral standard of some planet in a galaxy far, far away might be to destroy any life form existing on any other planet in the universe (kind of like destroying potentially dangerous alien life forms).

however, if "universal" is intended to reference morality on the planet Earth, then again (hopefully I am not belaboring the intent of the question) I am once again presuming that the word "morality" is to be applied to the human species...presupposing that other life forms on this planet do not have a moral compass (altho there appears to be some evidence of other animals being in possession of a type of morality applicable to their species.)

finally, if "universal" and "morality" is meant to apply to the human species of this planet, in my opinion there is no universal morality; due to the religious and cultural influences of each unique society. as extreme examples, it appears that in the Muslim religion, it is morally acceptable to kill individuals of any other religion unwilling to convert to Islam; while in some more passive religious groups, killing of any human being is forbidden.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #16 on: 14/11/2018 22:08:22 »
Quote from: jimbobghost on 14/11/2018 18:17:12

...perhaps the moral standard of some planet in a galaxy far, far away might be to destroy any life form existing on any other planet in the universe (kind of like destroying potentially dangerous alien life forms).
In this topic, I'm focusing on the search of similar values among different societies,  because it is the requirement of something being universal.  In your hypothetical case, destroying any life forms in other planet cannot be  the universal moral standard,   because it only applies when the lifeforms in that particular planet realize that there are other planets,  and there exist other lifeforms there. Until then, this moral value has no guidance function,  hence useless as moral standard.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #17 on: 14/11/2018 22:19:49 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 14/11/2018 13:54:51

I spend some time sitting on medical research ethics committees. The general guidance seems to boil down to whether the balance of risk and benefit has been fully evaluated and presented such that the famous "man on the Clapham omnibus" would be able to make an informed decision to participate. But in making that judgement, we are often aware that even his brother on the Brooklyn omnibus has a slightly different perspective, and we can only guess at what the average Tokyo commuter might consider acceptable.
I think you posted this before I finished editing my post about Bayesian inference that causes subjectivity in real life judgment of moral actions. The next question is,  are there residual subjective factors when bayesian inference is excluded from the equation?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #18 on: 14/11/2018 23:03:57 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/11/2018 12:57:41
I'll try to answer standard questions, starting with "What". In most theories, morality can be seen as a method to distinguish between right and wrong, good and bad, proper and improper. It follows that to get to universal agreement on morality, we need first to agree on what is defined by the words right and wrong, good and bad, proper and improper. This inevitably lead us to the next question: who decides what's right and wrong, good and bad, proper and improper, and why?
Question of when and where can be more easily answered. A universal moral standard must be applicable anywhere and anytime.
I'll refine the answer to what question later. Now I'll try address the who question.
Moral standard can only be imposed to agents/systems with capability of doing planned action. In other words,  they must have some internal algorithm to determine how to react in certain circumstances.  Something who can do purely reflective actions or reactions has no moral obligation.
That's why there are debates about ethics for autonomous systems with artificial intelligence.
Between reflective systems and complex systems with deep cognitive functions,  there are a spectrum of cognitive capabilities.  Hence there are various degrees of moral obligations for them. As an example from more familiar cases,  we impose different level of moral obligations between human babies and adults.
This leads us to the next question,  why?
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Offline David Cooper

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #19 on: 14/11/2018 23:47:11 »
Universal morality as in universally applied by people/aliens - no. Universal morality as in absolute morality - yes. There is an absolute morality, and most attempts at formulating moral rules are attempts to produce that underlying absolute morality. The reason we find so much in common between different attempts at formulating systems of moral rules is that they are all tapping into an underlying absolute morality which they are struggling to pin down precisely, but it is there.

What is absolute morality? The idea of "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" captures most of it, but it's not quite right. "Always try your best to minimise harm (if that harm isn't cancelled out by the gains for the one who suffers it)" was one of my attempts to formulate the rule properly, and it does the job a lot better, but I'm not sure it's completely right. The correct solution is more of a method than a rule: it's to imagine that you are all the people (and indeed all the sentient beings) involved in a situation and to make yourself as happy as possible with the result of whatever action is determined to produce that maximum happiness. You must imagine that you will have to live each of their lives in turn, so if one of them kills one of the others, you will be both the killer and the one killed, but that killing will be the most moral action if it minimises your suffering and maximise your pleasure overall.

This is how intelligent machines will attempt to calculate what's moral in any situation, but they will often be incapable of accessing or crunching enough data in the time available to make ideal decisions - they can only ever do the best they can with what is available to them, playing the odds.

(This is a kind of utiliratrianism. The strongest objection I've seen to utilitarianism is the Mere Addition Paradox, but there's a major mathematical fault in that paradox and anyone rational should throw it in the bin where it belongs.)
« Last Edit: 15/11/2018 00:39:55 by David Cooper »
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