[alancalverd]

That universal terminal goal is the ultimate reason why we use reason at all, and not become irrationalists, hyper sceptics, or nihilists.

The fact that some people become irrationalists, hypersceptics or nihilists (not to mention fascists or communists) denies the existence of a universal goal. 

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The fact that some people become irrationalists, hypersceptics or nihilists (not to mention fascists or communists) denies the existence of a universal goal.

That would determine their fate.
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/nicomachaen.4.iv.html

evil destroys even itself

[alancalverd]

No evidence so far. If crime didn't pay, nobody would do it.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

No evidence so far. If crime didn't pay, nobody would do it.

Evil things are like cancer. They seek for short term benefits while sacrificing long term goals.

[alancalverd]

The criminal's goal is to eat. If he doesn't, "long term" is meaningless.

[marklivin]

That universal terminal goal is the ultimate reason why we use reason at all, and not become irrationalists, hyper sceptics, or nihilists.

The fact that some people become irrationalists, hypersceptics or nihilists (not to mention fascists or communists) denies the existence of a universal goal.

I absolutely agree with you. Everything is relative in the aspect of morality and for each conviction can be equally strong and correct, both for a fascist and an anti-fascist. And each of them will bring their own incredibly powerful arguments.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The criminal's goal is to eat. If he doesn't, "long term" is meaningless.

He could just try farming, fishing, ask, open gofundme, etc. instead of doing crime.
If his longterm goal is limited by his own lifetime, then it can't be universal.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

That universal terminal goal is the ultimate reason why we use reason at all, and not become irrationalists, hyper sceptics, or nihilists.

The fact that some people become irrationalists, hypersceptics or nihilists (not to mention fascists or communists) denies the existence of a universal goal.

I absolutely agree with you. Everything is relative in the aspect of morality and for each conviction can be equally strong and correct, both for a fascist and an anti-fascist. And each of them will bring their own incredibly powerful arguments.

It's like saying that the fact that there are still flat-earthers denies the existence of a universal gravitation. Or the existence of people believing in simulation hypothesis denies the existence of an objective reality.

[alancalverd]

More criminals prosper than farmers. Worst that can happen is you spend a few years being fed at the taxpayer''s expense, studying a trade or an Open University degree, playing chess, and learning from your fellow-professionals. Fishing is dangerous.

Universal presumably means that it applies to everyone, nothing to do with long or short term. I have no goals beyond my own lifetime.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

More criminals prosper than farmers. Worst that can happen is you spend a few years being fed at the taxpayer''s expense, studying a trade or an Open University degree, playing chess, and learning from your fellow-professionals. Fishing is dangerous.

Universal presumably means that it applies to everyone, nothing to do with long or short term. I have no goals beyond my own lifetime.

It means that the law enforcement is ineffective, thus needs improvements. Doing crime should be made more dangerous toward the perpetrators,  so people with self interest are discouraged from it.

Universal goal means that it applies to any conscious entities, no matter what element they are based on.
The long term goal is suggested by the word terminal, assuming that causes precede consequences.
The consciousness part is required by the word goal itself.
Don't you want to leave a better world for your kids, grand kids, and the next generation?

[alancalverd]

Law enforcement, i.e. policing and prosecution, is ineffective, and when it results in a conviction, punishment and protection simply puts a burden on the taxpayer and does nothing to prevent further crimes. When the world comes to its senses, criminals will simply be placed on an island or enclosed in a fenced area and left to get on with building whatever alternative society they want, including the right to die from exposure or establish sustainable housing and agriculture.

Australia works OK but I'd prefer to start with an uninhabited area rather than allow my scum to attack a native population. Bleeding hearts from time to time wail about the depopulation of Scottish islands, so why not pay the remaining inhabitants to resettle on the mainland, and dump our human detritus on a place which does at least have sheep and potatoes?

The problem with your universal goal seems to be that it is something you want to impose on the universe, whereas I interpreted it as something that the universe, or at  least those elements that could express an idea, wanted. Problem is that everything that embodies whatever you define as consciousness, has a different idea of perfection.

I'd like to leave the world a better place for my descendants, but this may involve it being less comfortable for your descendants, since we are distributing decreasing resources among an increasing population.   

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Law enforcement, i.e. policing and prosecution, is ineffective, and when it results in a conviction, punishment and protection simply puts a burden on the taxpayer and does nothing to prevent further crimes. When the world comes to its senses, criminals will simply be placed on an island or enclosed in a fenced area and left to get on with building whatever alternative society they want, including the right to die from exposure or establish sustainable housing and agriculture.

In industrial practice, improvements start with identifying problems. The next step is finding the root cause and contributing causes. Then make a plan to address them to prevent the problem from reoccuring in the future. The chosen plan may depend on available resources, based on its effectiveness and efficiency. Then execute the plan and evaluate the results, which may produce side effects or residual problems.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The problem with your universal goal seems to be that it is something you want to impose on the universe, whereas I interpreted it as something that the universe, or at  least those elements that could express an idea, wanted. Problem is that everything that embodies whatever you define as consciousness, has a different idea of perfection.

My idea of universal terminal goal is imposed by the definitions of each words in the phrase. I don't remember if you've proposed any alternative. You only said that it doesn't exist.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

I'd like to leave the world a better place for my descendants, but this may involve it being less comfortable for your descendants, since we are distributing decreasing resources among an increasing population.   

decreasing resources and increasing population are just your assumptions. Being multiplanetary and being innovative can increase resource. Regulation and education can reduce or maintain population.

[alancalverd]

decreasing resources and increasing population are just your assumptions.

Observation, definition of life, and basic physics:  ΔS > 0. Not assumptions.

[alancalverd]

I don't remember if you've proposed any alternative. You only said that it doesn't exist.

It would be dishonest to propose an alternative definition of something that cannot exist.

[alancalverd]

In industrial practice, improvements start with identifying problems. The next step is finding the root cause and contributing causes. Then make a plan to address them to prevent the problem from reoccuring in the future. The chosen plan may depend on available resources, based on its effectiveness and efficiency. Then execute the plan and evaluate the results, which may produce side effects or residual problems.

Problem: criminals (by definition) disrupt the normal working of a cohesive society, and harm innocent individuals

Root cause: parasitism is more efficient than hosting

Plan: identify and segregate parasites in a selfcontained community

Benefit: gradual elimination of problem

Cost: negligible

Residual problems: none in the medium term, if segregation is complete and permanent.

Possible longterm undesirable effect: parasites organise themselves into an army and invade the hosts en masse

Likelihood of side effect: very low, as parasites may prefer to feed on each other (see "bacteriophage"), being closer to hand

Side benefit: the threat of permanent banishment to a small rock in the north Atlantic may discourage newcomers from taking up crime as a career

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

decreasing resources and increasing population are just your assumptions.

Observation, definition of life, and basic physics:  ΔS > 0. Not assumptions.

For a closed system. The earth is clearly not one. It continuously receive energy from the sun. Up to some point in the future.
Survival of consciousness beyond that point is a real possibility. Someone will try to make it, someone else won't. Any form of consciousness which will make it are more likely the product of someone who try to make it. It's just natural selection at work.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

I don't remember if you've proposed any alternative. You only said that it doesn't exist.

It would be dishonest to propose an alternative definition of something that cannot exist.

But you offered an interpretation.

The problem with your universal goal seems to be that it is something you want to impose on the universe, whereas I interpreted it as something that the universe, or at  least those elements that could express an idea, wanted. Problem is that everything that embodies whatever you define as consciousness, has a different idea of perfection.

Sure, different forms of consciousness have some differences. But they also have some similarities. The universal goal must be based on those similarities, instead of the differences.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Root cause: parasitism is more efficient than hosting

Except when the hosts goes extinct, or start building effective defensive counter measure.