[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Plato and the origin of mental health - PubMed

Abstract
This essay examines the history of the concept of mental health. Its origin can be traced to Plato, who argued that immorality is to the soul what disease is to the body. The purpose of this argument was to answer those who thought that morality is a set of social conventions, and in that sense, is contrary to nature. Plato responded by turning to those who made a systematic study of nature--the medical writers of his day--and claiming that if proper balance is needed to maintain a healthy body, the same is true of the soul. Thus the natural state of the soul is one in which the various parts agree on which should rule. This does not mean that Plato sought to excuse immoral behavior by treating it as a medical condition, only that he regarded immoral behavior as contrary to nature and thus treatable. Although later attempts to define mental health are not as rigid as Plato's, it is remarkable how many of his insights are still applicable, in particular the claim that morality and mental health, though not identical, are nonetheless linked. A case in point is the experience of wanting something but not liking the fact that you want it. Plato regarded internal conflict of this sort as a paradigm case of psychic dysfunction. I argue that we can regard it as either a moral failing or a mental one.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18962894/

Nowadays, soul and mind can be interpreted as various states of neurons and neurotransmitters which affect someone's behaviors.

Socrates and Plato: the good consequences of being moral are not what make actions good; rather, actions have good consequences because they are good in themselves (and ought to be done for that reason alone). Immorality is due to ignorance of the good.
http://people.tamu.edu/~sdaniel/Notes/ethics1a.html

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

I'd like to leave the world a better place for my descendants,

Have you found a reason for this?
Do you think that everyone feels the same?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Residual problems: none in the medium term, if segregation is complete and permanent.

You seem to assume that people's mind, character, and behaviors can not be changed.

[alancalverd]

Why bother? The areas of the globe where criminals operate are already overpopulated (parasites need hosts!) so recycling them as reformed humans is not required.

The simplest way to recycle organic rubbish is to segregate it into a compost heap and let nature reduce it to sterile dust. I am always in favor of a "do nothing" approach if it achieves the desired result, and in this case it is certainly the quickest procedure and guaranteed effective.

[alancalverd]

I'd like to leave the world a better place for my descendants,

Have you found a reason for this?
Do you think that everyone feels the same?

It's something to do with animal evolution. All those species that can, choose or modify their environment so that their offspring can flourish. Being a fairly recent and very fragile species with exceptionally long maturation and neoteny, I think the instinct is quite deeply rooted in most humans.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

It's something to do with animal evolution. All those species that can, choose or modify their environment so that their offspring can flourish. Being a fairly recent and very fragile species with exceptionally long maturation and neoteny, I think the instinct is quite deeply rooted in most humans.

Prehistoric humans were limited in their capacity to coordinate efforts involving large numbers of individuals, just like other mammals. Social insects seem to do the job better.
That changed with the invention of written language. Modern humans can coordinate to achieve common goals of billions individuals.
Inclusion of direct descendants may involve a dozen or so individuals. Tribal inclusion can involve hundreds to thousands. National inclusion can involve millions.
Instinct based decisions tend to be shortsighted, and have a great chance of being stuck in local minima.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Why bother? The areas of the globe where criminals operate are already overpopulated (parasites need hosts!) so recycling them as reformed humans is not required.

The simplest way to recycle organic rubbish is to segregate it into a compost heap and let nature reduce it to sterile dust. I am always in favor of a "do nothing" approach if it achieves the desired result, and in this case it is certainly the quickest procedure and guaranteed effective.

I've often mentioned that efficiency is a universal instrumental goal.
Your method relies on the assumption that the criminals aren't smart enough to escape from the segregation. And maintaining it is easy and cheap. Also that neuroscience won't make significant progress from current state.

[alancalverd]

Smart is useful, but the ability to swim 50 miles in the North Atlantic is essential. There is no "maintenance" - see above - they can die from exposure or sort out some shelter - I don't care.
Neuroscience has plenty of challenges and opportunities for making life better without wasting resources on our enemies.

[alancalverd]

Prehistoric humans were limited in their capacity to coordinate efforts involving large numbers of individuals,

Stonehenge suggests otherwise. Building effective calendars permitted trade over the entire west coast of Europe, across north Africa and into India. It was destroyed by the literate Romans.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Prehistoric humans were limited in their capacity to coordinate efforts involving large numbers of individuals,

Stonehenge suggests otherwise.

How many people were involved in building it? I guess less than a million.

Building effective calendars permitted trade over the entire west coast of Europe, across north Africa and into India. It was destroyed by the literate Romans.

Those trades require written communications. No one can memorize all of the transactions reliably.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Smart is useful, but the ability to swim 50 miles in the North Atlantic is essential. There is no "maintenance" - see above - they can die from exposure or sort out some shelter - I don't care.

How do you send them there in the first place?
They could hitch a ride to the vehicles sending newer prisoners.,
They could build their own boat.

Neuroscience has plenty of challenges and opportunities for making life better without wasting resources on our enemies.

How about turning enemies into allies?

[alancalverd]

Smart is useful, but the ability to swim 50 miles in the North Atlantic is essential. There is no "maintenance" - see above - they can die from exposure or sort out some shelter - I don't care.

How do you send them there in the first place?

Boat or plane. Just like a regular prison bus, but able to cross water. It worked for Botany Bay.

They could hitch a ride to the vehicles sending newer prisoners.,

fire hoses and guns usually deter hitchhikers - not that you see many on a regular prison bus. 

They could build their own boat.

And as long as the bleeding hearts welcome them, they will return to predate on their victims. Life is a constant battle.

Neuroscience has plenty of challenges and opportunities for making life better without wasting resources on our enemies.

How about turning enemies into allies?

We have no shortage of allies, and indeed an excess of people in most of the habitable regions.

[alancalverd]

Prehistoric humans were limited in their capacity to coordinate efforts involving large numbers of individuals,

Stonehenge suggests otherwise.

How many people were involved in building it? I guess less than a million.

There are very few modern enterprises that coordinate more than a million people. Indeed following the demise of the Soviet army, it is likely that the UK National Health Service is the only organisation with more than a million employees, and they are hardly "coordinated", merely facilitated to do their thing in small groups.

Building effective calendars permitted trade over the entire west coast of Europe, across north Africa and into India. It was destroyed by the literate Romans.

Those trades require written communications. No one can memorize all of the transactions reliably.

No need to do so until VAT was invented. You probably keep very good business accounts but would be regarded as a bit obsessive if you keep all your household supermarket bills and bus tickets. A rural doctor friend never billed his agricultural patients, and never bought food. 

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

We have no shortage of allies, and indeed an excess of people in most of the habitable regions.

What if the enemies are a whole nation? Or a group of nations?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

There are very few modern enterprises that coordinate more than a million people. Indeed following the demise of the Soviet army, it is likely that the UK National Health Service is the only organisation with more than a million employees, and they are hardly "coordinated", merely facilitated to do their thing in small groups.

A nation can coordinate millions or even hundreds of millions of people. The coordination doesn't have to be permanent employments. Managing lives in a pandemic or solving problems of climate change can be shown as examples.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

No need to do so until VAT was invented. You probably keep very good business accounts but would be regarded as a bit obsessive if you keep all your household supermarket bills and bus tickets. 

It would be impossible without written records, which are mostly digital now. At least in the bank side, or supermarket and transportation company.

A rural doctor friend never billed his agricultural patients, and never bought food.

It's an exception instead of the norm. He/she still needs other things than food. As long as they don't live in isolation, they need written records. They couldn't learn much without written records, such as books, web sites, etc.

[alancalverd]

What if the enemies are a whole nation? Or a group of nations?

We were discussing criminals within a nation. Conflicts between politicians can be resolved by negotiation or war.

[alancalverd]

A nation can coordinate millions or even hundreds of millions of people. The coordination doesn't have to be permanent employments. Managing lives in a pandemic or solving problems of climate change can be shown as examples.

Politicians can motivate and facilitate but it's very difficult to coerce everyone.
Pandemics have been managed where borders were closed and people were quarantined, but there are very few examples where life management on any finer scale has been effective.
The problems of climate change have not been addressed in any meaningful or effective manner. People will eventually respond by migration, whatever coordination is attempted.

[alancalverd]

I signed up for an Open University foundation course in Humanities. The first three months were devoted to discussing the difference between homo sapiens and other animals, but did not come up with any valid answers.  I had to write an essay on the subject but was completely baffled, so I asked the first person I met at work - literally passing in a corridor - what distinguishes us from other species. Without hesitation he said "Man records anything that is too trivial to remember".

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Politicians can motivate and facilitate but it's very difficult to coerce everyone.

Except when the government has strong influence and authority over the citizens, like in China or North Korea.