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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2000 on: 05/09/2021 11:57:51 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 05/09/2021 08:55:20
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/09/2021 00:09:10
The one thing all religions have in common is that they teach you to despise all the others. That's depraved and corrupt.
We can analyze religions like any other memes. The fact that some of them have survived for millenias suggests that they have some benefits for their societies, which outweigh their cost and flaws. One of their main benefits has been identified centuries ago.
Quote
On March 4, 1806, during a meeting of the national committee Napoleon said:

“Je ne vois pas dans la religion le mystère de l'Incarnation mais le mystère de l'Ordre Social. La religion rattache au ciel une idée d'égalité qui empêche le riche d'être massacré par le pauvre."

 translation: “I don’t see in religion evidence of the mystery of the incarnation, but rather the mystery of social order. Religion associates heaven with an idea of equality that keeps the rich from being massacred by the poor.”
Social disorder is not the only threat to the existence of conscious beings. There's another threat, which is natural disorder or catastrophe. The benefit of social order brought by religion would be overshadowed by its cost of inability to build protection against natural disorders. For example, if religion hinders scientific progress which makes the society incapable of preventing extinction by asteroid impact or global pandemic.
« Last Edit: 05/09/2021 12:00:01 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2001 on: 05/09/2021 13:16:41 »
Texas Bans Abortion And Idiots Blame The Left

Many things we see as immoral actions only become obvious retrospectively. They are caused by miscalculation of risks.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2002 on: 07/09/2021 17:40:47 »
Religion is what gives perverts the presumed authority to interfere in the lives of others. I'd be happy to be governed by a parliament of ex-professionals (soldiers, doctors, businessmen, trade union officers....)  deemed worthy by popular vote to represent their constituents. As soon as you allow parasites like priests and career politicians to stand and represent their party or professed beliefs, you get bad government.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2003 on: 07/09/2021 17:43:05 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/09/2021 06:04:04
Does it include Buddhism and Jainism?
It certainly describes the adherents I have met.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2004 on: 08/09/2021 01:26:24 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 07/09/2021 17:40:47
Religion is what gives perverts the presumed authority to interfere in the lives of others.
So do other ideologies like communism, capitalism, liberalism,  anarchism.
The CDC had to interfere in people's lives with vaccine and mask mandates to minimize the impact of the pandemic.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2005 on: 08/09/2021 09:56:56 »
Difference is that most of the cited isms involve a degree of implicit or explicit public consultation and approval based on clear potential advantages. CDC is publicly accountable. Mullahs and bishops are not.

The general rule of a civilised society is that some form of parliament or soviet decides what should be prohibited for the public good. Anything that is not prohibited is permitted, and your duties are limited to paying taxes, sitting on a jury, or being liable for military service. If you don't like a decision, you can write to the newspapers or appeal to a court of your peers.

Theocracies (including many European countries) work the other way around: you have all sorts of duties (some imposed by the rights of others) and can only do what is permitted. You have no right to question or challenge the authority of whoever says he has read the book and been anointed by some mythical being.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2006 on: 09/09/2021 00:05:24 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 08/09/2021 09:56:56
Difference is that most of the cited isms involve a degree of implicit or explicit public consultation and approval based on clear potential advantages. CDC is publicly accountable. Mullahs and bishops are not.
What's clear for you may not be clear for others, and vice versa. What we think is clear might still be false in some circumstances.
They are also accountable, but use different sets of rules. Anyone in any position can be personally corrupt.
« Last Edit: 10/09/2021 03:39:14 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2007 on: 09/09/2021 04:09:17 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 08/09/2021 09:56:56
The general rule of a civilised society is that some form of parliament or soviet decides what should be prohibited for the public good.
The general rule of a civilised society is to encourage behaviors that would more likely bring good consequences to the society, and discourage behaviors that would more likely bring bad consequences to the society.
What makes the difference is the accuracy of their model for objective reality that relates actions and consequences. Some societies believe that human sacrifices can prevent famine and natural disasters. Some others believe that killing gays can save them from disasters. Nazis believed that killing Jews can bring them to prosperity. The Confederacy believed that keeping slaves can bring them to prosperity.
« Last Edit: 09/09/2021 04:31:06 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alianawatson1990

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2008 on: 10/09/2021 08:45:40 »
Classic and elegant interior designs elevate the look of your home to a whole new level. Modern interior design has outstanding features like wallpapers, colors, textures, spacing, lighting, etc.
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2009 on: 10/09/2021 14:18:23 »
Quote from: alianawatson1990 on 10/09/2021 08:45:40
Classic and elegant interior designs elevate the look of your home to a whole new level. Modern interior design has outstanding features like wallpapers, colors, textures, spacing, lighting, etc.
What on earth does this have to do with the topic?
Unless you are showing us that you have a very low moral standard by trying to spam us.
Doesn’t work
Bye
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2010 on: 13/09/2021 09:58:49 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/09/2021 04:09:17
The general rule of a civilised society is to encourage behaviors that would more likely bring good consequences to the society, and discourage behaviors that would more likely bring bad consequences to the society.
That describes uncivilised societies, which have some kind of predetermined objective. Civilisation is about allowing people maximum freedom to do their own thing without upsetting others. Hence the incompatibility between English (it is an offence to...) and European (it is a requirement to...) law.

Amartya Sen was awarded a Nobel Prize for pointing out that there has never been a famine in a democracy.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2011 on: 13/09/2021 12:11:32 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 13/09/2021 09:58:49
Amartya Sen was awarded a Nobel Prize for pointing out that there has never been a famine in a democracy.
Quote
So, Harvard economist Amartya Sen looks wise in his comment that "No famine has ever taken place in the history of the world in a functioning democracy."
If famine takes place in a democratic country, he can just say that their democracy is not functioning.
It sounds like no true Scotsman.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2012 on: 13/09/2021 12:14:15 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 13/09/2021 09:58:49
Civilisation is about allowing people maximum freedom to do their own thing without upsetting others.
Whatever you do might upset someone. Even when you do nothing.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2013 on: 13/09/2021 17:19:32 »
That is why we have parliaments to decide what is so annoying as to be illegal. Thus civilisation happens by evolution, not revolution.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2014 on: 14/09/2021 06:49:22 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 13/09/2021 17:19:32
That is why we have parliaments to decide what is so annoying as to be illegal. Thus civilisation happens by evolution, not revolution.
People have different level of tolerance toward different types of annoyance.
In democratic societies, decisions made by the majority is applied to all members, including those who disagree with them. In representative democracy, it can be manipulated through Gerrymandering.

Quote
What is the difference between Evolution and Revolution?
• Evolution refers to the gradual development or changes in something over a period.
• On the other hand, the word revolution means ‘a turn around’; a sudden, complete, or radical change in something.
• Revolution is the fundamental change in something in a staggeringly short period.
https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-evolution-and-vs-revolution/
French, and many third world countries, get their democracy through revolution.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2015 on: 14/09/2021 07:26:04 »
Communism vs. Socialism: What's The Difference?


Quote
There's a lot of confusion surrounding the terms Communism and Socialism. The two are often used interchangeably, even by entire governments and political leaders, but they are not the same at all! So what’s the difference?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2016 on: 14/09/2021 21:12:59 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/09/2021 06:49:22
French, and many third world countries, get their democracy through revolution.

Hence the difference between the legal systems of France and the UK. The French revolutionaries imposed a model secular state, the Brits, as usual, meandered in the course of 1000 years or so towards a compromise vaguely associated with the Church of England and the monarch but ultimately ruled by an elected  parliament and an unelected senate, but crucially preserving the celtic ideal of the state serving the citizen, not the other way around.   
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2017 on: 14/09/2021 21:35:01 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/09/2021 06:49:22
People have different level of tolerance toward different types of annoyance.
Which is why we have civil courts, English law is full of "normally" and "reasonable", and it is an offence to deliberately annoy anyone.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2018 on: 15/09/2021 11:32:15 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 14/09/2021 21:35:01
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/09/2021 06:49:22
People have different level of tolerance toward different types of annoyance.
Which is why we have civil courts, English law is full of "normally" and "reasonable", and it is an offence to deliberately annoy anyone.
What's normal and reasonable in one society may not be normal and reasonable in other societies.
Many comedians deliberately annoy politicians. Should they be punished?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2019 on: 20/09/2021 05:10:19 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/09/2021 11:32:15
Many comedians deliberately annoy politicians.
Here's an example from a few years ago.

Or this one.
« Last Edit: 20/09/2021 05:17:27 by hamdani yusuf »
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