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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2020 on: 20/09/2021 06:26:30 »
I just found a relatively new Youtube channel especially explain about morality.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiFZhnakJkADVzUftC4FzPg/videos
Here is one of his video.
Moral Antirealism: Is morality a scam?
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The idea that morality just exists to enforce social norms is rooted in moral antirealism, the idea that there simply are no moral facts.  But why believe this is true?

And this one from more popular channel.
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We begin our unit on ethics with a look at metaethics. Hank explains three forms of moral realism – moral absolutism, and cultural relativism, including the difference between descriptive and normative cultural relativism – and moral subjectivism, which is a form of moral antirealism. Finally, we’ll introduce the concept of an ethical theory.
« Last Edit: 20/09/2021 06:31:08 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2021 on: 20/09/2021 13:26:27 »
Virtue Theory

To me, the invention of the word virtue in morality is like adding a hidden layer in a neural network somehere between its input and output. It gives us flexibility to more combinations between possible states of inputs and outputs. But it's hard to define what's virtuous and what's not. Except if we can define the terminal goal, and accurate models to tell us what are the consequences of each options.
« Last Edit: 21/09/2021 04:30:05 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2022 on: 20/09/2021 13:39:41 »
https://twitter.com/PR0GRAMMERHUM0R/status/1437461095703367684/photo/1
Many say that honesty is a virtue. Some say it's a weakness.



* E_LjP-WX0AI8bDk.png (187.74 kB, 500x644 - viewed 1459 times.)
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2023 on: 20/09/2021 17:36:20 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/09/2021 11:32:15
Many comedians deliberately annoy politicians. Should they be punished?
Not all of them. Annoyance may be enough.

"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."
« Last Edit: 20/09/2021 17:38:22 by alancalverd »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2024 on: 20/09/2021 17:42:05 »
Yes, that's me with a ponytail.

My civil service boss told me that I had been criticised in a probationary staff report for not suffering fools gladly. I said I hadn't expected to meet any. The subject was never raised again.
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Offline marklivin

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2025 on: 23/09/2021 16:09:12 »
There is no and cannot be, if we are not captured by AI and impose its power and one moral code on all. Everything is relative.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2026 on: 24/09/2021 04:05:10 »
Quote from: marklivin on 23/09/2021 16:09:12
There is no and cannot be, if we are not captured by AI and impose its power and one moral code on all. Everything is relative.
Your statement implies that it can be, if we are captured by AI.

Dou you agree with moral relativism? Should we let Nazis and ISIS practice their moral rules?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2027 on: 24/09/2021 12:25:53 »
I've read many comments in various forums, also social media like facebook, twitter, and youtube defending moral relativism. If you're one of them, please consider its implications as shown below.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 27/05/2021 10:19:56
Quote from: alancalverd on 26/05/2021 23:22:57
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 26/05/2021 17:35:53
My point is that without a universal terminal goal, there is no universal moral standard, and we can't say if a moral rule is universally good or bad.
And there being no possibility of a UTG, there is no UMS.
How do you proof that there is no possibility of universal terminal goal?
Without universal moral standard, we can't say if any moral rule is better or worse than any other moral rules. You can't say that ancient Jewish moral rules are better or worst than Nazi's moral rules, nor with modern secular democratic moral rules.
Every action would be equally justified by their own moral standard. Jewish' genocide would be justified by their tribal moral standard. Nazi's holocaust would be justified by their racist/facist moral standard. ISIS' actions would be justified by their theological moral standard. Even Ted Bundy's serial rapes and murders would be justified by hedonistic moral standard. Charles Whitman's mass shooting would be justified by nihilistic moral standard. They are equally good by relativistic moral standard.
You can only say that your moral standard is better than the others by showing that yours is more aligned with the universal moral standard, at least in some specific aspects.
« Last Edit: 24/09/2021 12:32:43 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2028 on: 26/09/2021 07:57:22 »
Recently I've selected the best answer in this thread. It might make me look narcissistic. But I think it is necessary to prevent this thread from being repetitive by someone answering the question in the title without reading the course of discussion from the start, which I realize is almost impossible for new members, considering the length of this thread.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2029 on: 01/10/2021 11:48:28 »
Is It Our Moral Duty to Explore Other Planets? - with Christopher Mason
Quote
Inevitably, life on Earth will come to an end, whether by climate disaster, cataclysmic war, or the death of the sun in a few billion years. What do we do about it?
Watch the Q&A:
Get Christopher's Book: https://geni.us/fELYS

In this talk, Christopher E Mason argues we have a moral duty to explore other planets and solar systems. He envisages the same capacity for ingenuity that has enabled us to build rockets and land on other planets can be applied to redesigning biology so that we can sustainably inhabit those planets. And he will lay out a 500-year plan for undertaking the massively ambitious project of reengineering human genetics for life on other worlds.

Christopher E. Mason is a geneticist and computational biologist who has been a Principal Investigator and Co-investigator of several NASA missions and Planetary Protection projects. He is Associate Professor at Weill Cornell Medicine, with affiliate appointments at the Meyer Cancer Center, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, the Information Society Project (ISP) at Yale Law School, and the Consortium for Space Genetics at Harvard Medical School. His book The Next 500 Years: Engineering Life to Reach Other Worlds will be published in April 2021 by MIT Press.

This talk was recorded on 20th April 2021
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2030 on: 03/10/2021 00:31:01 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/10/2021 11:48:28
we have a moral duty to explore other planets and solar systems. He envisages the same capacity for ingenuity that has enabled us to build rockets and land on other planets.....
That's arrogance, not evidence of a moral duty. Having screwed up a perfectly habitable planet, killed off most of the other species on it, and invented politics and religion as excuses for killing each other, it would be best for the earth and the rest of the universe if homo sapiens was eliminated, not encouraged to infect other planets..
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Offline Pseudoscience-is-malarkey

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2031 on: 03/10/2021 02:51:23 »
You know, Hamdani Yusuf clearly put so much time and effort into asking this deep, meaningful philosophical question, and yet has ONLY received 2,034 replies. It's a shame and an outrage. A shamage.
« Last Edit: 01/11/2021 18:00:00 by Pseudoscience-is-malarkey »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2032 on: 03/10/2021 06:03:33 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 03/10/2021 00:31:01
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/10/2021 11:48:28
we have a moral duty to explore other planets and solar systems. He envisages the same capacity for ingenuity that has enabled us to build rockets and land on other planets.....
That's arrogance, not evidence of a moral duty. Having screwed up a perfectly habitable planet, killed off most of the other species on it, and invented politics and religion as excuses for killing each other, it would be best for the earth and the rest of the universe if homo sapiens was eliminated, not encouraged to infect other planets..
It looks like you're a misanthropist.

Quote
This video introduces some of the recent philosophical work on misanthropy. The third part is based on the work of Ian James Kidd, particularly his article "Varieties of Philosophical Misanthropy". See also Norlock's "Perpetual Struggle" and Halwani's "Misanthropy and Virtue". The notion of secular theodicies comes from Benatar's book "The Human Predicament", though his focus is on pessimism in general rather than misanthropy specifically.


0:00 - Philosophical misanthropy
3:24 - Secular theodicies
23:50 - Living with misanthropy
« Last Edit: 03/10/2021 06:06:55 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2033 on: 03/10/2021 09:27:57 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/10/2021 06:03:33
It looks like you're a misanthropist.
You paint me with too broad a brush! I'm not anti-human, just pro-universe.

I love and appreciate a few of my fellow beings who really do good things for others and various bits of the planet, but the fact is that all living things convert their environment to toxins: excretion is one of the defining characteristics of life.

Humans produce a wider range of toxins and in vastly greater quantities per capita than any other species, so even when we are not torturing and killing each other in the name of some absurd hypothesis, we cover the planet in crap.

Several excellent products are labelled "not for export". I think homo sapiens is a potentially excellent product, but should not be exported from this planet.   
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2034 on: 03/10/2021 10:36:22 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 03/10/2021 09:27:57
I love and appreciate a few of my fellow beings who really do good things for others and various bits of the planet, but the fact is that all living things convert their environment to toxins: excretion is one of the defining characteristics of life.
Have you seen a terrarium that have been running for decades supporting lives isolated from outside world?
In principle, there's nothing to prevent humans from building suitable size terrarium for humans.
« Last Edit: 03/10/2021 10:42:26 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2035 on: 03/10/2021 11:56:35 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 03/10/2021 09:27:57
Several excellent products are labelled "not for export". I think homo sapiens is a potentially excellent product, but should not be exported from this planet.   
No one I know claims that humans in current form are perfect. But we can use our knowledge and wisdom to make continuous improvement.

Physically, human body is not suitable for outer space, nor most extraterrestrial worlds. But there's no requirement for us to go there naked.

Do you have a reason to prevent humans from building a multiplanetary society?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2036 on: 03/10/2021 12:08:13 »
Currently, autonomous robots are exploring extraterrestrial worlds, like moon, Mars, and asteroids. They are extending consciousness to larger space. But currently, they have an obvious limitation to play the leading role in the effort to achieve the universal terminal goal. They can't reproduce, yet. Their continued existence still depends on humans.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2037 on: 03/10/2021 13:08:08 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/10/2021 10:36:22
Have you seen a terrarium that have been running for decades supporting lives isolated from outside world?
In principle, there's nothing to prevent humans from building suitable size terrarium for humans.
We already live in a very good one. Better to keep it tidy than to bugger it up and build another one where it isn't wanted.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2038 on: 03/10/2021 13:11:33 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/10/2021 11:56:35
No one I know claims that humans in current form are perfect. But we can use our knowledge and wisdom to make continuous improvement.

Physically, human body is not suitable for outer space, nor most extraterrestrial worlds. But there's no requirement for us to go there naked.
Then you would be exporting something that isn't a human. And as it is arguable that environmental stress (including radiation damage) leads to evolution, you would be exporting something too robust to evolve.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2039 on: 03/10/2021 13:12:16 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/10/2021 12:08:13
in the effort to achieve the universal terminal goal.
defined by whom?
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