[alancalverd (OP)]

Not a conspiracy theorist but those ignorant buggers at the Civil Aviation Authority who insist I have to read meteorological textbooks written by professional liars and take exams where the answers are wrong. That's why planes keep getting lost and falling out of the sky - the wind gradient simply doesn't exist and the bloke in the control tower is just making it up.   

Generated wind power is lower in summer because wind farms are paid not to produce electricity when demand is low. Gridwatch showed large peaks of wind power in October and November but a spectacular shortage in December, January and February, which was made up with huge peaks of gas consumption.

There must be something wrong with my solar panels. It's nearly midnight, and not even a microamp from them.  Evan seems to have the same problem in Australia. Pleased to hear that yours are doing well.

[wolfekeeper]

Not a conspiracy theorist...

Generated wind power is lower in summer because wind farms are paid not to produce electricity when demand is low.

Oh not conspiracy theorists, not conspiracies at all!

They only turn off the wind turbines, when the transmission lines saturate or wind power is within a couple of gigawatts of total demand. They don't just do it for fun!!!

Please point to the parts in summer where the wind farms are maxing out all or most of the demand, which days were these?:

http://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

The UK record is 59.9% of demand supplied by wind turbines. What you're saying, that they're being turned off during summer is preposterous.

[evan_au]

There must be something wrong with my solar panels. It's nearly midnight, and not even a microamp from them.  Evan seems to have the same problem in Australia.

When it's nearly midnight in the UK, it is midday here, and the solar panel inverter is usually humming along happily...

Now if only we could get a very long extension cord....

[alancalverd (OP)]

The UK record is 59.9% of demand supplied by wind turbines.

And what, pray, was the demand? Total installed wind capacity is 15 GW so the demand at the time cannot have exceeded 25GW, which places it at midnight on a hot June date.

Fortunately we have about 30 GW of available fossil power to recharge all the electric cars.

And 59.9% is still some way short of the 100% that EoN advertise.

They don't just do it for fun!!!

That would be ridiculous. Everything in the industry is done for money. Why, for instance, is the UK government now offering to subsidise onshore wind farms when the best sites are already populated? Surely not to give taxpayers' money to Tory landowners? That would be a huge waste of effort when they could simply pay over the odds for medical supplies that never arrive.   


Ah, hot June dates....takes me back to my youth...wonder where she is now?

[wolfekeeper]

The UK has over 24 GW of wind power installed right now and this is still growing rapidly. The record was set in late August. I might be wrong but I think high winds are more common towards the end of summer.

Whether or not the 'best wind sites' are populated, there's still plenty of very good places to stick wind turbines.

[alancalverd (OP)]

Gridwatch only reports 15 GW of metered windpower capacity and suggests there is another another 30% of unmetered local generation, but the reported demand figure is also limited to metered supply only. If there really is 25 GW capacity available and the wind blows adequately at  night, the system should be able to provide 85% of minimum demand (because we need to keep the nuclear generators running) from wind. 

"High winds" are not necessarily a Good Thing because they are associated with sharp gusts which can overstress the blades, so turbines are feathered to deliver a fairly constant power output over a wide range of geostrophic speeds and shut down quite sharply at the "maximum mean" to prevent damage.

[wolfekeeper]

Gridwatch's website, while it tracks the power figures accurately, it is not kept fully up to date on things like that. Wikipedia is generally more current:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_Kingdom

[alancalverd (OP)]

Not a wise thing to suggest, since it paints an even gloomier picture of actual performance!

Gridwatch admits that it is only tracking metered power and there is another 30% of installed unmetered capacity, which comes pretty close to the Wikipedia total. However Eon only supplies metered power, so their claim of 100% renewables is obviously false.

Yesterday hit a peak of 13 GW of metered wind (the highest for a year) but that still only accounted for 50% of what went into the grid at the time.

[Petrochemicals]

On Boxing Day 2020, a record 50.67% of power used in the United Kingdom was generated by wind power. However, it was not the highest amount of power ever generated by wind turbines; that came earlier in December 2020, when demand was higher than on Boxing Day and wind turbines supplied 40% of the power required by the National Grid (17.3 GW).[277][278] However, on 26 August 2020, wind contributed 59.9% of the grids electricity mix.[279]

But the uk requires 250gw of energy ON AVERAGE so overall 17.3 gw is laughable. We need to add 17gw of renewable yearly, that is not peak either, but constant.

[wolfekeeper]

But the uk requires 250gw of energy ON AVERAGE so overall 17.3 gw is laughable. We need to add 17gw of renewable yearly, that is not peak either, but constant.

250 GW is power, not energy. The UK is not using 250 GW of power on average in any sense at all. What are you even trying to say?

[Petrochemicals]

But the uk requires 250gw of energy ON AVERAGE so overall 17.3 gw is laughable. We need to add 17gw of renewable yearly, that is not peak either, but constant.

250 GW is power, not energy. The UK is not using 250 GW of power on average in any sense at all. What are you even trying to say?

Yes it is.

[wolfekeeper]

Still no. The total energy usage of the UK in 2020 was 140 mtoe, which is 188.5 GW, average.

However, much of that is thermal energy which is not comparable with renewable energy. You typically have to divide by around 3 to get the equivalent in, electrical, renewable terms. So about 60GW. The UK grid averages about 30+ GW. So the amount of electrical power supplied needs to double.

[Petrochemicals]

Still no. The total energy usage of the UK in 2020 was 140 mtoe, which is 188.5 GW, average.

However, much of that is thermal energy which is not comparable with renewable energy. You typically have to divide by around 3 to get the equivalent in, electrical, renewable terms. So about 60GW. The UK grid averages about 30+ GW. So the amount of electrical power supplied needs to double.

Still no, but mtoe gives a surprisingly close average number. Ah ha, I have you now! If you make statements like 50 percent of electricity in a specific day, to  equate capacity with average energy output is fairly obvious.  The 17gw of wind  is not a day average either, just peak supply.

And why do renewable not need thermal energy? Is it because they are happy being cold or the toaster works at a lower temperature and the kettle boils as if at higher altitude.

https://www.britishgas.co.uk/home-services/boilers-and-heating/guides/boiler-efficiency.html#:~:text=A-rated%20boilers%20score%20over,boilers%20come%20in%20under%2070%25.

[alancalverd (OP)]

However, much of that is thermal energy which is not comparable with renewable energy.

The argument diverges here.

I think we have put to rest the claim that EoN supplies me with 100% renewable electricity, so that is now a matter for the lawyers.

The broader question is what is going to replace oil and gas, and when. Unless we agree to freeze to death and stop makig things or going anywhere, we need to supply (not install, supply) the UK with about 188 GW on average, with peaks up to twice that number, whenever it is required, from somewhere.

Suggestions welcome - the Prime Minister's credibility depends on it!

[Petrochemicals]

However, much of that is thermal energy which is not comparable with renewable energy.

The argument diverges here.

I think we have put to rest the claim that EoN supplies me with 100% renewable electricity, so that is now a matter for the lawyers.

The broader question is what is going to replace oil and gas, and when. Unless we agree to freeze to death and stop makig things or going anywhere, we need to supply (not install, supply) the UK with about 188 GW on average, with peaks up to twice that number, whenever it is required, from somewhere.

Suggestions welcome - the Prime Minister's credibility depends on it!

Sorry Alan for the distraction.

I would venture that eon is supplying you with hydro electric energy. That is how they can do it 24 hours a day 365 days a year.

[wolfekeeper]

And why do renewable not need thermal energy?

It's because of electrification. Electric cars don't care about the Carnot cycle. The Carnot cycle needs thermal energy- and is incredibly wasteful, and is the best you can do with thermal energy. Heat pumps also do not need primary thermal energy, they need electrical energy. Sure, some things use direct resistive heating, kettles, induction heating etc. but they're largely low use items. The really big energy users, such as space heating, hot water, are going to be mostly handled with heat pumps.

Once you realise that, then you can see the gap is so much smaller than you thought it was. '250 GW' is just because of how horrendously inefficient we've been in the past.

And the answer is still, Is Eon a con: no, they're selling you net zero carbon electricity.

[Petrochemicals]

Again, electric cars are not that brilliant, Internal combustion cars can be improved. Heat pumps are debatable to as whether they are more efficient. I have been and found a link for you. We need to improve the housing stock to this level, but that is a matter of at least a century.

https://www.logix.uk.com/beat-the-beast-from-the-east

[Bored chemist]

the Prime Minister's credibility depends on it!

He hasn't got any.

The broader question is what is going to replace oil and gas, and when.

You do realise that we have already replaced more than half of it, don't you?
https://renews.biz/67478/renewables-outstrip-fossil-fuels-in-uk-in-2020/#:~:text=Onshore%20and%20offshore%20wind%20provided%20more%20than%20half%20of%20the,and%20nuclear)%20generated%2059%25.&text=Renewables%20overall%20provided%2040.5%25%20in%20this%20period.

And that the 59% of our power that's low carbon as of 2020 was a 18% increase on the year before.

So, in fact, we are well on the way to doing what you keep parodying as impossible,

Are you going to get a kerosene lamp just so you will always be able to say that the UK isn't carbon neutral?

[alancalverd (OP)]

An interesting source indeed.

Onshore and offshore wind provided more than half of the UK’s renewable power in 2020 by generating 24.2% of the UK’s electricity needs (13% from offshore wind and 11.2% from onshore wind).
Low carbon sources (renewables and nuclear) generated 59%.

"Statista" says:

Electricity use in the United Kingdom has seen a significant decrease since the turn of the century. Demand peaked in 2005 at 357.2 TWh but had fallen to just 287.58 TWh by 2020.

That's just electricity, dear boy. Less than 30% of the UK's energy consumption is delivered as electricity. All the rest is fossil- fuelled.

Just to delve a bit deeper into your figures. 24% of electricity came from wind. All other renewables can only provide about 10 - 12%, so around 30% of the non-fossil power came from nuclear stations. Only one new nuke is being built and the old ones are beginning to creak a bit.

So my concern remains: how are we going to generate, store and use the other 60% of UK energy requirement when the oil and gas run out?

It's obviously possible, planned and fully funded, because it's inevitable and we have a world-beating private sector ready to take your money even if they have no expertise in power generation or any intention of actually delivering anything, and a competent and honorable government ready to give it to them. I'm simply asking about the physics and engineering (there can't be any chemistry, because that would make CO2).

[alancalverd (OP)]

I would venture that eon is supplying you with hydro electric energy. That is how they can do it 24 hours a day 365 days a year.

Installed UK hydroelectric capacity is 1.5 GW - about 2% of average demand. And mostly supplied by Scottish Hydro, not EoN.

I used to fly an EoN glider, made by Elliotts of Newbury, that was indeed renewable, being mostly wood and canvas. EoN made wooden furniture until 1938 when they were commissioned to build troop-carrying gliders, and carried on into the 1950s with the very gentlemanly single-seat Olympia 463, incorporating the oxygen system, artificial horizon and a wheel from the Spitfire. But I don't think it is the same company.