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  1. Naked Science Forum
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  3. Geology, Palaeontology & Archaeology
  4. Can anyone explain these insect fossils?
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Can anyone explain these insect fossils?

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Offline Iwonda (OP)

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Can anyone explain these insect fossils?
« on: 17/08/2021 05:49:20 »
I've come across some insect fossils that no one can seem to explain. I have contacted several entomologist who were able to help ID some of the specimen but none could explain the state of preservation these specimen are in. I did contact one paleo entomologist who told me that these specimen have somehow been mummified but he could not explain how this could have happened, I was told to keep searching because someone has to know.
These two specimen were found in loose sediments, others have been found inside of sedimentary and igneous rocks nearby. Anyone ever come across anything like this??
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Can anyone explain these insect fossils?
« Reply #1 on: 17/08/2021 09:02:40 »
Quote from: Iwonda on 17/08/2021 05:49:20
These two specimen were found in loose sediments, others have been found inside of sedimentary and igneous rocks nearby. Anyone ever come across anything like this??
Sedimentary I can understand as air could be cut off and the specimen dried, but survival in igneous sounds very unlikely due to the extreme temperatures.
Wood and other plant material can survive a long time if deprived of oxygen.
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Online evan_au

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Re: Can anyone explain these insect fossils?
« Reply #2 on: 17/08/2021 10:04:44 »
It is unusual in that there appears to be a thin coating around the insect pieces (like lacquer or epoxy). This is especially noticeable around the insect antennae.

This is very different from insects captured in amber, where the insect is captured within a globule of viscous sap, rather than having a thin coating of a watery substance applied.
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Offline Iwonda (OP)

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Re: Can anyone explain these insect fossils?
« Reply #3 on: 18/08/2021 06:03:16 »
I can't understand any of this stuff, I searched all over the web for articles that might help to explain some of this but found nothing. I too thought that maybe some had been coated with something but they don't all have that high gloss look to them. If it were only one or two specimen, I wouldn't give it much thought but there's a lot of items that are involved in whatever took place here. I can only show a few more photos but as you can see, these specimen look different.
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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Can anyone explain these insect fossils?
« Reply #4 on: 18/08/2021 15:50:56 »
From the photos, I see what appear to be two spiders, a whole wasp, and a wasp's head. It is entirely possible that you are looking at a discarded bug collection, and this could be confirmed if the coating is clearly anthropogenic (like epoxy or acrylic).

Getting an FT-IR (Fourier transform infrared) spectrum with and ATR (attenuated total reflectance) detector would be a non-destructive way to shed light on or even positively identify the substance they are coated with. Most universities would have at least one of these instruments available (at least in the US, Western Europe, and East Asia... I don't know where you are).

It would be quite easy to distinguish amber, epoxy, acrylic, glass, chitin (bug shell), etc. (one can even distinguish between types of amber and types epoxy resin using these methods):

https://www.persee.fr/doc/anata_1018-1946_2012_num_20_1_1325
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/FTIR-spectrum-of-the-epoxy-resin_fig2_227327777
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Offline Iwonda (OP)

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Re: Can anyone explain these insect fossils?
« Reply #5 on: 20/08/2021 04:47:04 »
Quote from: chiralSPO on 18/08/2021 15:50:56
Getting an FT-IR (Fourier transform infrared) spectrum
I would love to have an FT-IR analysis done on some of this stuff but I live on the west coast of the U.S and the state that I live in the universities only allow students and educators access to such analysis. Thanks for the info on the FT-IR, I'm going to have to look into that again because that would shed a lot a light on what's going on here because not only are there mummified insects but there's a host of mummified plants to figure out too.
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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Can anyone explain these insect fossils?
« Reply #6 on: 20/08/2021 15:35:10 »
Quote from: Iwonda on 20/08/2021 04:47:04
students and educators access to such analysis.

Then you'll just have to find an educator and convince them to take a look at it for you.  :D

I am a chemistry professor (in the Rust Belt, so not trivial to look at these samples for you), and I can assure you that if someone were to email me with such questions, I would at least be intrigued. And it is so easy to do this analysis, I think a little bit a time spent reaching out to professors could be useful. You can typically find their contact info on the university websites, and you shouldn't be afraid to send them an email out of the blue. (we are generally very busy and socially inept, so don't worry if you don't get a reply...I would recommend emailing a few different folks, and see who responds positively first.)
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Offline Iwonda (OP)

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Re: Can anyone explain these insect fossils?
« Reply #7 on: 21/08/2021 05:00:52 »
Quote from: chiralSPO on 20/08/2021 15:35:10
Then you'll just have to find an educator and convince them to take a look at it for you. 
Most of the scientist I've contacted about these specimen have been entomologist, I was just trying to ID some of them. I didn't really pay any attention to their state of preservation until I contacted a paleo entomologist who told me that they appeared to be mummified. I think now it's a matter of contacting the correct scientist, maybe a biologist or a biochemist. I have to admit that this little mystery is teaching me a lot about things that I would have never given a thought at all. There's about two to five hundred items that need to be explained and I'm determined to find some answers. Thanks for the info.
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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Can anyone explain these insect fossils?
« Reply #8 on: 22/08/2021 00:36:07 »
I think chemistry, chemical engineering, and materials science departments are most likely to have the kind of instrumentation I am envisioning. I would imagine forensic science departments as well, but I don't know.

You might also have luck reaching out to the coordinator of undergraduate labs for a chemistry department at a large university (but not this time of year, as they are all scrambling to get the semester started).
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