[Bored chemist]

This is the main part of the problem the ethanol will assist in the mixing of water to the point that it still works the ethanol will break up the water into very small beads allowing it to pass through the system when the vehicle is in motion.

You state that, with no evidence and in the face of my counter-example.

You are just wrong.

[Bored chemist]

But, if there's little or no water then the addition of ethanol to fuel can't be about water- which is what your opening pots was wrong about.

The thing is if there is only a very small amount of water let's say 100 ml to a full tank of petrol that is not enuff water in the tank to be picked up with the addition of the alcohol as the car is in motion that little bit of water will mix and be picked up in very small amounts this gets rid of the water before more water becomes introduced to the system. Without the alcohol present, the water will accumulate leading to an amount that will get sucked up into the fuel line. The fact is that with alcohol in the system it will assist the water in becoming mixed with the aid of motion.

This is nonsense. The car sits in the garage overnight, all the water (without without ethanol in it) settles out.
This isn't the end of the world- the fuel pipe does not reach the bottom of the tank (as Alan pointed out).
So, when you start the engine, it runs.
Now either the motion of the car is enough to suspend the water in the petrol, in which case small drops will be pulled through and not matter much, or it won't.
There are detergents added to fuel; those may well help the process.
The alcohol may also help.
IPA would do a better, cheaper job but you seem to think the oil companies are too stupid to use it (I hold a different view)
But cars worked fine before they started putting alcohol in fuel.
So the presence of the alcohol is not to prevent the car engine failing.

[Just thinking (OP)]

You state that, with no evidence and in the face of my counter-example.

You are just wrong.

The only way to tell is to have two test samples two jars fill one 3/4 with E10 and add 1ml of water the other fill 3/4 with straight petrol and add 1ml of water lids on shaking both well at the same time and see. I bet you will see the straight petrol accumulate the blob of water at the bottom of the jar well ahead of the E10 sample and the water in the E10 sample will be in much smaller globules before it settles.

[Bored chemist]

The only way to tell

To tell what?
That adding alcohol will increase the solubility of water?
We already know that.
What it won't tell you is if your original assertion

The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water

is true.
But... we know that it can't be true because,
(1) they don't put water in the fuel so they don't "know" which fuel to add the alcohol to
(2) ethanol doesn't do a good job, they would do better with IPA
(3) they actually add the ethanol for "green" reasons.

So, your proposed experiment couldn't possibly affect the fact that your claim was wrong, could it?

[Just thinking (OP)]

But, if there's little or no water then the addition of ethanol to fuel can't be about water- which is what your opening pots was wrong about.

The thing is if there is only a very small amount of water let's say 100 ml to a full tank of petrol that is not enuff water in the tank to be picked up with the addition of the alcohol as the car is in motion that little bit of water will mix and be picked up in very small amounts this gets rid of the water before more water becomes introduced to the system. Without the alcohol present, the water will accumulate leading to an amount that will get sucked up into the fuel line. The fact is that with alcohol in the system it will assist the water in becoming mixed with the aid of motion.

This is nonsense. The car sits in the garage overnight, all the water (without without ethanol in it) settles out.
This isn't the end of the world- the fuel pipe does not reach the bottom of the tank (as Alan pointed out).
So, when you start the engine, it runs.
Now either the motion of the car is enough to suspend the water in the petrol, in which case small drops will be pulled through and not matter much, or it won't.
There are detergents added to fuel; those may well help the process.
The alcohol may also help.
IPA would do a better, cheaper job but you seem to think the oil companies are too stupid to use it (I hold a different view)
But cars worked fine before they started putting alcohol in fuel.
So the presence of the alcohol is not to prevent the car engine failing.

You have missed the point again the fact that the fuel line pickup is not at the very bottom of the tank is why I stated that it is important to keep any water accumulation below that level. And yes the ethanol is there to prevent the engine from failing as the fuel that it is mixed with on its own will have an octane level that is far too low and on its own, it will destroy your modern engine. And your other point of in the past we never had a problem running without ethanol well you tell that to all the people that did and has had water in their fuel. And I think your last point is the ethanol will act like soap or cleaning agent well maybe better than you think.

[Just thinking (OP)]

That adding alcohol will increase the solubility of water?
We already know that.
What it won't tell you is if your original assertion

Ok, it sounds like you now agree that ethanol will work to aid in the mixing of water in the fuel that's a change of mind. Now all I have to do is convince you that there is a high chance of water being in the E10 fuel from the start.

[Bored chemist]

that's a change of mind.

No.

[Bored chemist]

You have missed the point again the fact that the fuel line pickup is not at the very bottom of the tank

You actually quoted me saying it.

This isn't the end of the world- the fuel pipe does not reach the bottom of the tank (as Alan pointed out).
So, when you start the engine, it runs.

[Bored chemist]

And yes the ethanol is there to prevent the engine from failing as the fuel that it is mixed with on its own will have an octane level that is far too low and on its own

No, That's what aromatisation, MTBE and isomerisation are for. (using more of one anti-knock  method means you can use less of another.)
But I already pointed this out to you.

The dominant call for including ethanol in fuel is to reduce the carbon footprint. It also acts as an anti-knock additive which is helpful since we abandoned tetraethyl  lead in (most) petrol.

 You keep saying things that I already said, and then pretending that I didn't know about them.
It's really silly when the whole discussion is recorded and searchable.

[Bored chemist]

And I think your last point is the ethanol will act like soap or cleaning agent well maybe better than you think.

Well, you may thing that it will help emulsify the water/ ethanol mixture into the hydrocarbons but as I keep pointing out (and you keep ignoring) I did the experiment, and it didn't.

You need to stop considering your hallucinations as evidence..

[Just thinking (OP)]

You actually quoted me saying it.

When I stated the fuel line pickup is at the bottom of the tank I should have said in addition less 1/2 of an inch. And there should be a slite depression at the bottom of the tank to collect any non buoyant mater that has entered the fuel system over time. One other little point I would like to make is in the old days before the invention of the plastic fuel tank were you not aware with the amount of rust that the old metal tanks accumulated or was that before your time. And what makes rust?

[Just thinking (OP)]

You keep saying things that I already said, and then pretending that I didn't know about them.
It's really silly when the whole discussion is recorded and searchable.

It's quite simple you stated that the ethanol will not aid in the removal of water in petrol and you have a problem believing that there can be any water in the petrol that is used to produce E10 fuel. It really is as simple as that. I have not changed my story at all But it looks like you are starting to come around very slowly I might add.

[Bored chemist]

One other little point I would like to make is in the old days before the invention of the plastic fuel tank were you not aware with the amount of rust that the old metal tanks accumulated or was that before your time. And what makes rust?

It's a very little point; nobody said that water didn't ever make its way into tanks, did they?

I pointed out that it typically happened after it left the refinery (and I explained why- more than once, I think).

But you somehow seem to think that the oil companies know which tanks will get these dregs and end up needing ethanol so that's the fuel they add the ethanol to or something.

The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water

Somehow, they know there's no need to add ethanol for fuel destined for tanks that don't get rain in them or whatever.

I'm sure we are all still waiting for your explanation of why (to shift water)  they use ethanol instead of IPA, which is cheaper and better; rather than ethanol, which has a lower carbon footprint.

[Bored chemist]

I have not changed my story at all

Your original story. i.e this

The fuel that is supplemented with ethanol is the refined dregs that contain most of the water

They say ethanol fuel is green well yes it does burn that little bit cleaner but is that why it is produced no.

was, and remains wrong.

This

When the oil is collected from the deep drillings ocean and groundwater are introduced to the mix this water is a problem for the refinery that prepares the oil and converts it to the fuel that we use.

is also wrong because they strip most of the water before they even pipe it to the refinery.
One of the first stages in refining  is distillation, and that will remove all the water.
After that, it's practically a non-problem until it leaves the plant.

if we have water in the fuel without ethanol the water will collect at the bottom of the tank

That still happens if you do have ethanol in it, you can get away with slightly more water, but in practical terms, you still have to keep the fuel dry.

Do you believe this is why ethanol fuel was created?

No, I don't because, if they were doing what you say they are, they would use IPA.

Your opening post was full of errors of fact.

[Bored chemist]

It's quite simple you stated that the ethanol will not aid in the removal of water in petrol

I showed what happens if your ethanol-bearing petrol gets much water in. You get two layers.

[Just thinking (OP)]

I'm sure we are all still waiting for your explanation of why (to shift water)  they use ethanol instead of IPA, which is cheaper and better; rather than ethanol, which has a lower carbon footprint.

This is rather strange if you in your own words say that IPA is cheaper but has a higher carbon footprint then that is self explanatory they keep the carbon footprint lower even if it costs a bit more that is how they advertise it. And as I have stated it still works on the water problem.

[Bored chemist]

I'm sure we are all still waiting for your explanation of why (to shift water)  they use ethanol instead of IPA, which is cheaper and better; rather than ethanol, which has a lower carbon footprint.

This is rather strange if you in your own words say that IPA is cheaper but has a higher carbon footprint then that is self explanatory they keep the carbon footprint lower even if it costs a bit more that is how they advertise it. And as I have stated it still works on the water problem.

Do you remember that you said the use of ethanol wasn't to do with being green?

...but is that why it is produced no...

Now you are saying that they don't use IPA because it's not green.

This is looking ironic.

I have not changed my story at all But it looks like you are starting to come around very slowly I might add.

[Just thinking (OP)]

This

Quote from: Just thinking on 02-10-2021, 20:33:32

    When the oil is collected from the deep drillings ocean and groundwater are introduced to the mix this water is a problem for the refinery that prepares the oil and converts it to the fuel that we use.

is also wrong because they strip most of the water before they even pipe it to the refinery.
One of the first stages in refining  is distillation, and that will remove all the water.
After that, it's practically a non-problem until it leaves the plant.

This is the bit that you need to know The oil and fuel industry wouldn't come out and say we are selling E fuel why because it has water in it not a good sales pitch. So how can this be During the mid 70s the green people wanted cleaner fuel so to satisfy their needs the industry came up with a solution to make lower grade petrol and as a consequence, the faster process will leave behind a small amount of water in the lower grade petrol. See what happens when a process is rushed cheap petrol but a problem water in it. How convenient add ethanol you get two birds with the one stone higher octane and a way around the problem of water in the fuel. How do they know which fuel has the water in it well I think the industry will keep pretty good tabs on what is in their tanks. The lower grade fuel is drained from the bottom of the unfinished higher grade fuel the higher grade fuel is still to be finished in that process any remaining water will be removed and that is why the higher grade fuel is more expensive as it has gone further into the process of making better cleaner higher octane fuel. All I can do now is take your hand and go for a brisk walk around the oil refinery what are you doing tomorrow.

[Just thinking (OP)]

Do you remember that you said the use of ethanol wasn't to do with being green?

Yes, I remember and the point is that the ethanol main purpose is to raise the octane level and move the water the green bit is a bonus sales pitch for the green ones. It works well even the government backs it. Like you stated it works at election time. Do you think much of the public is concerned about octane level ore do you think the public should be advised to the waterside of this why when the water problem is solved no need to tell.

[Just thinking (OP)]

Now you are saying that they don't use IPA because it's not green.

Ok, you say IPA is cheaper and better so you tell me why they are not using it. You better get around to that refinery and let them know about your cheaper and better option.